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Upheaval thoughts
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2012-08-28 09:38:12
I'm amused anytime I watch someone pedal backwards.
IB4 ACC caps at 95% so I am clearly capped at 94%.
Even the things he posts as proof to his claims look off/altered/made up.
We typically do 1M damage in a successful Mul(as in, only counting 1 Gallu kill). Meaning with 5 DD, they need to do 200K damage each.
About the ACC thing, here ya go: Code
Melee Damage
Player Melee Dmg Abs'd.Dmg Net Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg
Kaerin 41856 0 41856 41.84 % 154/10 93.90 % 93.90 % 0/598 228.49 236.43
Mul, wave2+3 only. Ukonvasara99, Hasso, Aggressor, 1 Madrigal
If we are to believe this, he only did 100K damage total in wave2-3, which means he's either altering the data to prove his point, he's a terrible DD in practice, or Ukon isn't all he thinks it is. My last Mul parse has me at 81591 damage for wave1 and 124669 for wave2 + Gallu.
Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-08-28 09:45:13
Given the crit rate nerf on tier 2/3, what Upheaval set should people use?
Kaerin's TP set has 576 Acc before buffs/debuffs and is close to the Acc cap if I assumed everything correctly. If we were aiming to make an Upheaval set with 576 Acc (440 skill), we would need 160 Acc from DEX/gear. I need 85 of those in DEX/Acc from gear.
This set puts me 7 Acc over that:
which is probably good, considering stuff like Oneiros Pebble and Wrathwing Nails are pretty uncommon. Obviously if I included the new WAR Abjuration set I could make a better build, but that's not very realistic.
Just based on my napkin math, even a set like that would be preferable with Upheaval to 100TP Ukko's on Tier 2-3 Mul monsters.
Probably change the grip to pole grip.
Feet could be Phorcys you get more ACC,DA and the set bonus from 3 pieces.
Cerberus.Taint
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By Cerberus.Taint 2012-08-28 09:47:29
I'm amused anytime I watch someone pedal backwards.
IB4 ACC caps at 95% so I am clearly capped at 94%.
Even the things he posts as proof to his claims look off/altered/made up.
We typically do 1M damage in a successful Mul(as in, only counting 1 Gallu kill). Meaning with 5 DD, they need to do 200K damage each.
About the ACC thing, here ya go: Code
Melee Damage
Player Melee Dmg Abs'd.Dmg Net Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg
Kaerin 41856 0 41856 41.84 % 154/10 93.90 % 93.90 % 0/598 228.49 236.43
Mul, wave2+3 only. Ukonvasara99, Hasso, Aggressor, 1 Madrigal
If we are to believe this, he only did 100K damage total in wave2-3, which means he's either altering the data to prove his point, he's a terrible DD in practice, or Ukon isn't all he thinks it is. My last Mul parse has me at 81591 damage for wave1 and 124669 for wave2 + Gallu.
Whats your TP/WS split. He didn't put his WS damage in the parse line. Ofcourse that would still only put him in the 80-100k range.
 Cerberus.Kvazz
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2012-08-28 09:48:18
There's mobs with -crit rate trait\merit whatever you wanna call it in legion? :o
 Lakshmi.ByrthVIP
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-08-28 09:48:56
Good call!
I don't know which the best grip really is in a situation where we need Acc and crit rate doesn't matter. 2% DA when we have Fighter's Roll and like 30% DA in TP gear? Is it really going to do more for me than 1 fSTR, 7 Attack, and 3-4 Acc? Is lolDanger Grip better?
Also, WS damage would put him almost exactly at 100k damage for Wave 2/3.
Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2012-08-28 11:18:44
Wave 2+gallu only, from the previous parse compilation.(6 rounds) Code
Melee Damage
Player Melee Dmg Abs'd.Dmg Net Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg
Loughry 225936 0 225936 48.15 % 753/80 90.40 % 90.40 % 0/999 290.31 293.93
Martel 144433 0 144433 24.78 % 746/75 90.86 % 90.86 % 0/525 192.54 194.94
Pretty much the same acc buffs. Hasso, 1 Madrigal, aggressor for Lou.
I'm told this is Lou's legion TP set
This should put him at 574~583 acc before buffs(depending on # of dex merits, I dunno how many he has)
And even on DRG I'm having similar acc issues.
Should be 584 acc before buffs.
Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-08-28 11:26:24
What were your Hit Rates on the Harpy? That could make the difference. Also, was that with Stardiver spam?
Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2012-08-28 11:29:25
Should be worth noting that our BRD sings Madrigal with 99 ghorn and 5/5 merits, which should put it at +96 acc with soul voice.
Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2012-08-28 11:29:38
Stardiver shouldn't have any impact on hit rate should it?
Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-08-28 11:34:54
It doesn't. I'm just interested at the 48% vs. 24% Melee %s. (Two of our best DDs are Ryunohige DRGs)
Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2012-08-28 11:40:54
What were your Hit Rates on the Harpy? That could make the difference.
We ES Impact and Feint the wave2 Harpy. If there's a huge difference in Harpy and the other mobs, it should be showing in Kaerin's data also.
Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2012-08-28 11:43:12
Oh. I just ws a hell of a lot more than everyone else. And jumps cut into my melee time, but almost always result in an immediate WS.
See?
Data taken from the same wave2~ selection as above. Code
Weaponskill Damage
Player WSkill Dmg Abs'd.Dmg Net Dmg WSkill % Hit/Miss WS.Acc % WS.Low/Hi WS.Avg
Loughry 242889 0 242889 51.77 % 152/0 100.00 % 0/4441 1597.95
- Ukko's Fury 234764 0 234764 96.65 % 150/0 100.00 % 0/3886 1565.09
- Upheaval 8125 0 8125 3.35 % 2/0 100.00 % 3684/4441 4062.50
Martel 388888 0 388888 66.71 % 200/0 100.00 % 479/4064 1944.44
- Drakesbane 380099 0 380099 97.74 % 195/0 100.00 % 479/4064 1949.23
- Stardiver 8789 0 8789 2.26 % 5/0 100.00 % 919/3297 1757.80
Jumps also account for 8%~ of my dmg further reducing my melee split. Code
Ability Damage
Player Abil. Dmg Abs'd.Dmg Net Dmg Abil. % Hit/Miss A.Acc % A.Low/Hi A.Avg
Martel 49654 0 49654 8.52 % 67/8 89.33 % 194/1721 741.10
- High Jump 2687 0 2687 5.41 % 4/0 100.00 % 389/844 671.75
- Jump 5002 0 5002 10.07 % 5/2 71.43 % 721/1252 1000.40
- Soul Jump 19679 0 19679 39.63 % 26/2 92.86 % 246/1721 756.88
- Spirit Jump 22286 0 22286 44.88 % 32/4 88.89 % 194/1584 696.44
Oh, I also don't have any kinda ODD, like relic/emp do. So i never get crazy high melee hits.
Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2012-08-28 11:49:06
Paramount Harpeia Code
Melee Damage
Player Melee Dmg Abs'd.Dmg Net Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg
Loughry 33416 0 33416 46.71 % 124/6 95.38 % 95.38 % 92/641 265.57 265.57
Martel 28222 0 28222 22.34 % 132/11 92.31 % 92.31 % 93/525 213.69 213.69
As Ejiin mentioned, ES impact+feint. Also, I suspect Lou had aggressor up for most of these, as he's capping where I'm not
Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-08-28 11:52:25
Okay, well that's reassuring. So you did 25% more damage than him and you both used your 2-hours.
Stardiver seems to be underperforming Drakes still? How is your Stardiver set? When I do napkin math I get that a 0% Crit rate Drakes with Ryunohige will approximately tie or slightly edge out Stardiver, which seems to be what you observed.
The WAR apparently never used Upheaval outside of Mighty Strikes, so it's hard to get much out of that.
Ragnarok.Returner
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By Ragnarok.Returner 2012-08-28 11:52:43
is it just me or does it seem like Mantis also have pretty decent evasion.
Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2012-08-28 12:14:14
The WAR apparently never used Upheaval outside of Mighty Strikes, so it's hard to get much out of that.
He saves MS specifically for Rex, which is why there aren't many Upheavals in there. I believe he said he's going to switch to it for wave2 in light of the -crit findings.
Ragnarok.Returner said: »is it just me or does it seem like Mantis also have pretty decent evasion.
This could be due to your DD being hit with Macerating Bile and not erasing it.
Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2012-08-28 12:15:09
Okay, well that's reassuring. So you did 25% more damage than him and you both used your 2-hours.
Stardiver seems to be underperforming Drakes still? How is your Stardiver set? When I do napkin math I get that a 0% Crit rate Drakes with Ryunohige will approximately tie or slightly edge out Stardiver, which seems to be what you observed.
The WAR apparently never used Upheaval outside of Mighty Strikes, so it's hard to get much out of that. I only used Spirit surge once in the 6 Muls in this parse, and that was on Botulous. So those normal jump/high jump were either during a rare dead wyvern period, or my spellcast auto jump selection freaking out.
As for Stardiver. Here's my normal Stardiver set.
I also have a higher acc version, but I never made a AH set for it.
I've only tried Stardiver spam for one Mul wave2 so far, since discovering the crit- trait... But I was not impressed. I got unlucky and got flattened twice that run, so it's a really small sample. I'll need to try again a few time before deciding whether it's worth using stardiver.
Code
Weaponskill Damage
Player WSkill Dmg Abs'd.Dmg Net Dmg WSkill % Hit/Miss WS.Acc % WS.Low/Hi WS.Avg
Martel 35708 0 35708 67.54 % 21/0 100.00 % 514/2780 1700.38
- Drakesbane 5387 0 5387 15.09 % 3/0 100.00 % 1099/2189 1795.67
- Stardiver 30321 0 30321 84.91 % 18/0 100.00 % 514/2780 1684.50
It's worth noting that a third of those ws were on the naraka. But even without those.. Code
Weaponskill Damage
Player WSkill Dmg Abs'd.Dmg Net Dmg WSkill % Hit/Miss WS.Acc % WS.Low/Hi WS.Avg
Martel 27773 0 27773 66.79 % 14/0 100.00 % 1093/2780 1983.79
- Drakesbane 4288 0 4288 15.44 % 2/0 100.00 % 2099/2189 2144.00
- Stardiver 23485 0 23485 84.56 % 12/0 100.00 % 1093/2780 1957.08
Stardiver's still lagging behind.
Overall, it doesn't look promising. But it warrants a bit more testing before I decide.
Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-08-28 12:26:47
So lets see if I have your strat approximately right:
5x DDs (Ryuno, Ukon, Ragnaroks) - Zerg things with buffs, keeping their PDT sets handy for TP moves. WARs coordinate Tomahawk. DRG uses Angon.
BRD - Uses Soul Voice/JAs, sings (3x Min/1x Mad), and locks on the entrance until you need more songs?
COR - Cycles through the DD party and Wild Cards the SMNs if you need more PDs. Uses Dia II/Light Shot on each mob.
WHM - Buffs the DD party before entering, casts Cure, cycles in to the DD party when the spot isn't occupied by someone else?
PLD - Kites everything (with Aegis). Who heals him?
THF - Puts TH on things and uses Feint as often as possible (especially on the Tier 2 Harpy). Ideally he would also drop Box Step/Quick Step on stuff.
2x SCH/BLM - One uses Tabula/Embravas, then locks on the entrance until after the Naraka from Wave 2. The other stuns Wave 1 and part of Wave II. One ES->Impacts the Tier 2 Harpy (and I imagine the other does Gallu and then the first does Rex again?)
6x SMN - Use PD, Shock Squall, and Thunderstorm. Spam Banish II on the Hahava/Uptala mobs.
As far as order, I'm guessing you guys don't care much about the Wave 1 order, care a little about Wave 2, and care about Wave 3. Something like this?:
Wave 1 -> Mantis (PD) -> Harpy -> Naraka (PD) -> Ironclad
Wave 2 -> Ironclad -> Mantis (PD) -> Harpy -> Naraka (PD)
Wave 3 -> Gallu (PD) -> Botulus (PD)
Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2012-08-28 12:32:06
I don't think we bring a whm.
As for the PLD, he gets embrava too. With Aegis and Embrava, you rarely need heals when kiting. As you rarely get hit with anything but spells.
Ragnarok.Returner
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By Ragnarok.Returner 2012-08-28 12:33:28
You can go through wave 1 without PD if your stunners are good. Second wave looks good.
Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2012-08-28 12:43:21
So lets see if I have your strat approximately right:
5x DDs (Ryuno, Ukon, Ragnaroks) - Zerg things with buffs, keeping their PDT sets handy for TP moves. WARs coordinate Tomahawk. DRG uses Angon.
BRD - Uses Soul Voice/JAs, sings (3x Min/1x Mad), and locks on the entrance until you need more songs?
COR - Cycles through the DD party and Wild Cards the SMNs if you need more PDs. Uses Dia II/Light Shot on each mob.
WHM - Buffs the DD party before entering, casts Cure, cycles in to the DD party when the spot isn't occupied by someone else?
PLD - Kites everything (with Aegis). Who heals him?
THF - Puts TH on things and uses Feint as often as possible (especially on the Tier 2 Harpy). Ideally he would also drop Box Step/Quick Step on stuff.
2x SCH/BLM - One uses Tabula/Embravas, then locks on the entrance until after the Naraka from Wave 2. The other stuns Wave 1 and part of Wave II. One ES->Impacts the Tier 2 Harpy (and I imagine the other does Gallu and then the first does Rex again?)
6x SMN - Use PD, Shock Squall, and Thunderstorm. Spam Banish II on the Hahava/Uptala mobs.
As far as order, I'm guessing you guys don't care much about the Wave 1 order, care a little about Wave 2, and care about Wave 3. Something like this?:
Wave 1 -> Mantis (PD) -> Harpy -> Naraka (PD) -> Ironclad
Wave 2 -> Ironclad -> Mantis (PD) -> Harpy -> Naraka (PD)
Wave 3 -> Gallu (PD) -> Botulus (PD)
We use to only reset the SMN, but it's overkill when we won't need more than 1 extra if we manage to have enough time after a full clear of wave3(5min remaining is our best so far). Recently I've been doing WC after Gallu, dropping 1 DD and getting 1 SMN and the RDM. If it fails, all DD get their JAs they used on Gallu back. If it works, the 1st WAR gets their 2hr back for Rex and you reset SMN and RDM.
No WHM, should be using RDM(CSS wave2 Ironclad) or a 3rd SCH.
Wave 1 -> Ironclad (PD) -> Mantis -> Harpy -> Naraka (PD)
Wave 2 -> Ironclad -> Naraka (PD) -> Mantis (PD) -> Harpy
Wave 3 -> Gallu (PD) -> Botulus (PD)
Wave1 Naraka usually takes the entire duration of PD to kill if it's in -DT stance and its 4 sword melee attack is very deadly.
Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2012-08-28 12:50:09
So just saying..... how about you cook a new thread to have a lolz-fight-ffxi and keep giving thoughts on Upheaval? Bit pooop when you come along thinking "Wooooooo new upheaval thoughts." you get here and it is all like. "beep beep beep fight over some stuff not relevant to post blah blah my e-peen is bigger then your e-peen." Just saying. :)
I'm not trying to derail here but I would like to give an outside perspective:
I have learned far more from watching someone who knows what the *** they are talking about berate some retard who can't keep their mouth shut, than I ever do anywhere else.
When someone is clearly wrong and will not leave it alone, the person with logic tries to understand why the other person won't drop it and move on. They try and try to break it down and make things as base and irrefutable as possible. Take it like a "ffxi for dummies" administered unintentionally. In this thread alone watching the rebuffs and arguements I already know more in regards to what a war should be doing in legion.
If you take a wonderful guide similar to Sylow's dnc guide there is a wealth of information to be learned. The problem is that it can be quite verbose and overwhelming. The repetition of seeing someone hammer a point home into a rubber skull really helps that information to be retained when it could be easily skimmed over as only a bullet point in the sea of learning a job.
On top of that: Everything you need to know about Upheaval could be summed up in a paragraph or less (basic information already on bg wiki). The fact that this thread is going 14 pages is rediculous and frankly if you're telling people to "get back on track" after 13, it's kinda your fault for coming this far and expecting it to even resemble the OP. Plus I only browse this ***at work so don't you dare take this amusement from me D:
Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-08-28 12:52:55
Okay, how do you get rid of Macerating Bile without a WHM? Grab a SCH, have them switch to Light Arts and toss out an Accession Erase?
 Carbuncle.Xenhas
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By Carbuncle.Xenhas 2012-08-28 12:54:57
Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2012-08-28 13:06:12
Okay, how do you get rid of Macerating Bile without a WHM? Grab a SCH, have them switch to Light Arts and toss out an Accession Erase?
Yeah, Panacea. It removes literally everything a WHM's sacrifice would. Some notables: Slow/Bio/HP down/Attack down/Any attribute down.
Incoming 1m/stack now.
[+]
Carbuncle.Xenhas
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By Carbuncle.Xenhas 2012-08-28 13:06:57
Also cool for getting rid of bind/grav in nyzul
was totally hesitating posting this but they are already 300k a stack on my server :/
Ragnarok.Returner
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By Ragnarok.Returner 2012-08-28 13:28:31
Do you guys autoexec to use it or macro or manually do it?
Thank you.
 Cerberus.Detzu
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By Cerberus.Detzu 2012-08-28 13:38:12
So just saying..... how about you cook a new thread to have a lolz-fight-ffxi and keep giving thoughts on Upheaval? Bit pooop when you come along thinking "Wooooooo new upheaval thoughts." you get here and it is all like. "beep beep beep fight over some stuff not relevant to post blah blah my e-peen is bigger then your e-peen." Just saying. :)
I'm not trying to derail here but I would like to give an outside perspective:
I have learned far more from watching someone who knows what the *** they are talking about berate some retard who can't keep their mouth shut, than I ever do anywhere else.
When someone is clearly wrong and will not leave it alone, the person with logic tries to understand why the other person won't drop it and move on. They try and try to break it down and make things as base and irrefutable as possible. Take it like a "ffxi for dummies" administered unintentionally. In this thread alone watching the rebuffs and arguements I already know more in regards to what a war should be doing in legion.
If you take a wonderful guide similar to Sylow's dnc guide there is a wealth of information to be learned. The problem is that it can be quite verbose and overwhelming. The repetition of seeing someone hammer a point home into a rubber skull really helps that information to be retained when it could be easily skimmed over as only a bullet point in the sea of learning a job.
On top of that: Everything you need to know about Upheaval could be summed up in a paragraph or less (basic information already on bg wiki). The fact that this thread is going 14 pages is rediculous and frankly if you're telling people to "get back on track" after 13, it's kinda your fault for coming this far and expecting it to even resemble the OP. Plus I only browse this ***at work so don't you dare take this amusement from me D:
Well you can't deny we've learned some interesting things from their debate.
By Kaerin 2012-08-29 07:56:08
If we are to believe this, he only did 100K damage total in wave2-3, which means he's either altering the data to prove his point, he's a terrible DD in practice, or Ukon isn't all he thinks it is. My last Mul parse has me at 81591 damage for wave1 and 124669 for wave2 + Gallu.
I fought the 4 wave 2 mobs, immediately got stripped by Gallu and didnt get to fight it til it was at 10%~, and then we fought the Botulus to 80% before losing, mainly on account of PD wearing off because our SAM accidentally exited and we didnt have enough damage. Those numbers are also only melee damage, no WS damage. If you don't believe that you can watch the video, it's probably still on my twitch, if not I can put it on youtube.
I'm amused anytime I watch someone pedal backwards.
IB4 ACC caps at 95% so I am clearly capped at 94%.
As I already stated, 94% is within the margin of error for 95%, are you really so stupid you can't figure that out, or maybe... read what I typed?
Code
Melee Damage
Player Melee %
Kaerin 41.84 %
Whats your TP/WS split. He didn't put his WS damage in the parse line. Ofcourse that would still only put him in the 80-100k range.
I always thought this part was obvious, but based on your earlier comments, I probably shouldn't be surprised. So I will spell it out for you. This part says my melee damage was 42%~ of my total damage, which means I did 100K~ total, since my melee damage was right around 42k.
Which isn't as bad as it sounds since I didn't exactly get to fight one of the mobs.
Wave 2+gallu only, from the previous parse compilation.(6 rounds)
Pretty much the same acc buffs. Hasso, 1 Madrigal, aggressor for Lou.
I'm told this is Lou's legion TP set
This should put him at 574~583 acc before buffs(depending on # of dex merits, I dunno how many he has)
So you never used feint, which I said we did, and also: Mithra DEX. Mithra DEX can easily make up the 3.5% hit rate you're missing to hit the 94 I showed, or cap at 95%, especially if he doesn't have all 12 DEX merits. And yes, I noticed slightly different gear, but you don't really know if thats what he had on.
By Kaerin 2012-08-29 08:32:22
meh, nvm.
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