[Opinion] Returning Player DD Question

I kinda really like this, it's a salient point that should bolster the "returnees should go support first" argument. If you're dead set on coming a DD as your return job, it doesn't matter, but in general, if you're looking for the most optimal job role to play, support is the way to go

this.

It's not hard to gear up a rune fencer or paladin enough for middle-tier content, up to, like Omen, Dyna wave 2, stuff like that. But I'm not advocating that new players jump into tanking immediately. That was more of a general statement that applies to players at all gear levels. Having some schlub locking up the DD slot no matter how geared they are is kinda ***. It's 2020, players should aim to be flexible and be able to take on different roles.


Agreed. I personally love tanking, more than any other role. And even BRD, now, has such long song durations and melee is viable, it's made the job so much better to play.

If you are soloing with Trusts, and you really want to play an MMO by yourself rather than make a new friend, use Ulmia Joachim Qultada instead of a fresh Cor. Also all three of them do ballad (3 a tic!) and if you are real lucky, joachim will hook a brother up with paeon!

Vastly or minimally better... I would say vastly better. If we want to nit pick, a human cor/whm could stay outside aoe, cure, status cure, pewpew, etc. Assuming the new player is not pure dog ***, and you are not an agoraphobe/misanthrope (both?) you will do better and have more fun with a human cor than a trust support. Trust march (if you get it) is way worse than sam roll for tp gain, or fighters roll for dps, than 1 march at 1/3rd efficacy (or whatever ulmias is).

You completely, absolutely missed the point.

Nobody is saying "don't make new friends". We are saying dont level a roll only cor to "break into endgame" just because another person on the internet keep saying it's something easy to gear.

I mentioned solo because someone else made the scenario of helping new players killing easy content. Why do I need a full pt helping new players on T1-T3? Nobody is talking about serious endgame event like dyna w3 since roll only cor will have a tough time getting into the ally.


I have more fun with people play a job better because it's what they like to play, not because another person told them to play cor and be support.



Because haste takes time to proc right? Already 2020 and people still arguing that stp/DA being a more important stat than haste.

Haste is more valuable than stp at high value and since you always get 30% from KoH, 15% from joachim will cap it. It's not "1 March at 1/3 efficiency". It's "1 March that caps haste".

On the other hand, DA and STP has diminishing value.



Joachim sings MP/HP song if they are at low value. It's not random. Just keep both values high and you'll be hasted. If I'm helping a new player farm T1 gears, evey pop dies fast with no real threat, and every pop you get full HP/MP, Joachim will outperform any real cor stp rolls because haste is just that good capped.

Ive seen tons of returning player lv roll only cor because it's supposed to be a leech job then eventually ditched the job when they "catch up".

Yes they "catch up", but on another job. All because people said this.



When I see people people spend time to lv the job only to half *** it because it's popular or something it annoyed me endlessly.

It's alright to suggest COR, but why don't you people say "it's an amazing job when fully geared, come and main it" instead of "it's functional with just rolls, use it to get gears that you want?"

It depends on what type of DD it is, but let's go with one of the worst case scenarios- WAR/SAM, meaning no dual wield to fall back on for additional attack speed, moderate JA haste that doesn't allow you to cap without full magic haste, high innate DA (so Fighter's wouldn't be all that wonderful for increasing WS rate).

In a fairly normal TP set, it'll come out about even in terms of WS speed since even a very modest +5 roll will lower the number of attack rounds you need by 1. Time to 1k will only be worse by about half a second, so it's not hard to imagine fitting in a human shitcor in place of a trust bard.

This is a simplification, but what most would do is to just go a job like BLU that doesn't really need trust bards to begin with.

What value did you use for DA? Because even with DW I'm not getting DA anyway competitive using BG values. Quickly open my cor spreadsheet, at 33k ws avg:

Capped haste, no stp nor DA roll, 11 DW: 5191 dps
30 haste, 31 DW(amount required for 30% haste), 25% DA (No.11 with job bonus proc):4700 DPS.

Everything else outside of buffs/DW value remains the same.

Unless BG value is wrong I'm not seeing DA roll competitive in anyway. Not sure why DA roll is even mentioned these days.

STP roll may be competitive to 15% haste, but only when rolls are bigger than 50 stp and DW gears are optimized. On a more mediocre roll it's still not beating 15% haste.

I don't have spreadsheet for 2h job, but I imagine without DW even 50 stp will have hard time competing with 15% haste.

My quick comparison didn't factor in any benefit from Fighter's whatsoever. I used a basic 100% DA build on Warrior.

Either way, I'm not seeing


with the numbers I have. DA roll isn't competitive in anyway and +5 Sam Rolls needs to be above certain high end value on a DW job to be competitive. Saying March is "way worse" than both is just mathematically incorrect.

People seriously tries too hard to give rolls more value than they deserve.

and I'm not seeing why you would be picking between the two to begin with, lol

This is such a bad feel. I got this feeling very often when I used to spam Ambuscade with strangers about a year ago, there was this dude playing a really garbage WAR when he had stuff like COR or GEO available (both were ok).

I get back into the game months later and he's still on the same shitty WAR. Not even 10 months allowed him to improve, like what the ***.

You are begging the question and straw-manning.

March is obviously fantastic. But Ulmia march (if she casts it) is not as good as a player March. IDK what its effectiveness is, but I am guessing it is as though it has no Song+ effects on it.

This has derailed, but you specifically said you think a trust is better than a human player. Agree to disagree.

One other thing, the point of my post is to stand in contrast to the messages that pop up on here all the time. I want a lurker to read my message and feel welcome to return to the game. Rather than feel belittled or worried they will need to spend months soloing before anyone wants to play with them.

Ulima and Joachim songs are +2 from what I remember.
"If" you get both March songs you have 12,6+19,04 = 31,64 add haste from apu/yoran/ygnas etc you're at 46,64 magic haste which is over capped.
With Haste2 from koru/King etc which is 30 you almost cap with advancing march =42,6. Magic haste cap is 43,75.
Edit: seems I was wrong.

Either of the trust bards are +0 and seem to not even have 600 skill to cap Victory March.

Advancing March grants 108/1024 Magical Haste.
Victory March grants 155/1024 Magical Haste.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Trust

Here you go then, Cor/Brd.

Edit, just want to say ty for explaining magic haste cap, and trust haste levels. TIL Haste 2 is a lot of haste.

This world doesn't need any more mediocre CORs.

They slowly going back to /whm, rolls+dia.
While some of us are pushing brd's into dd'ing, some even geo's with good results.

And anyone who is either in a solo DD party or dual WAR party with a COR is going to ask for Chaos Roll over Fighters Roll for those basic 100% DA WARs.

But would a rolls only COR know that? Remember, this is a person who puts in the least effort in their job and you would be lucky if they bothered to have Chaos/Fighters/Samurai Rolls to begin with. Or Rogue’s Roll depending on how you want it.

is that a real question

Being inferior to player March is irrelevant. Magic haste cap at 43.75%, if you already have 30% haste then it doesn't matter if trust March is 28% or 15%, they all add 13.75% max.

Joachim has 15.14% so it's more than required value. Not sure why you keep bashing trust haste when they totally get the job done.


I didn't. I said human cor is slightly better than qultada because of Sam roll, but it doesn't replace brd trust because cor can't haste. I'm just stating math facts and melee party composition, which always includes haste jobs.

This was what I said, how'd you read it as "a trust is better than a human player" is beyond me.




You are just randomly replying without considering math and data at this point. Cor/brd has 139 singing skill and it can't equip any instruments. If 600 skill victory March only has 15.92% haste, what makes you think 139 skill has 13.75%?

I highly doubt SE make March that way, or else every RDM will sub BRD to cap haste in endgame for 1 extra free pt slot.


If you want to encourage new players go ahead, don't need to post misinformations to support your point.

Let me rephrase the question for you then:

Do you honestly expect a player who put in the absolute minimal effort into a job to know what is really expected out of said player?

I do, because I have hands and I am capable of telling them 2 rolls that I want.

I'm sorry, I guess I shouldn't have assumed that you guys aren't playing with a USB steering wheel

Then don't be disappointed when those rolls-only CORs don't have the rolls you want.

I know Regal CORs who don't have all of their rolls.

I don't set myself up for disappointment.

If they can't do 2 rolls, what the *** makes you think they would be any more useful on something else

You don't even know what's being argued

Right now, the argument is how you are expecting a player who puts in the absolute minimal effort in Corsair to do more than the absolute minimal effort in a group setting.