[Opinion] Returning Player DD Question

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[Opinion] Returning Player DD Question
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By Afania 2020-09-20 12:26:35  
Shiva.Arislan said: »
This world doesn't need any more mediocre CORs.


If people look at things objectively Roll only cor doesn't add nearly as much DPS(v.s other DD options that they can come as)as some people claim here.

Decided to compare dps of a roll only cor v.s same player coming on a different DD+ qultada, since people just throw feelings around in this entire discussion.

3 man pt + 1 returning player, rest trusts.

Pt 1: real DD BRD(heal) GEO(heal), roll only cor/whm(returning player)

Pt 2: real DD BRD(heal) GEO(heal), returning player DRK, qultada.

Assuming No.7 chaos/fighter on qultada and No.7/No.2 chaos/Sam on real cor, then add extra potency from +5 rolls and using NQ hat for 1/3 job bonus proc. I'm giving real cor lucky number in this simulation because real people should roll better than trusts. Also letting real player smartly prioritize on SAM roll to gain an edge at pdif cap.

Pt 1 roll has 34.52% attack, 55 stp

Pt 1 roll has 25.38% attack, 6 DA.

Capped pdif:
Pt1 DD DPS: 6337
Pt2 DD DPS: 5299

On omen boss, PT2 DD DPS:6063

Uncapped pdif: (favors pt with real cor)
Pt1:4526
Pt2:3508

Using a roll only cor instead of qultada gets extra 1038 dps max. This "contribution" only worth less than 1/5 of a geared person. If that same returning player come on a different DD, as long as they do 1/5 dps of a geared DD they will have equal contribution as a roll only cor.

Do you think a returning player DD wearing entry level 119 gears using JSE or ambu weapon can't even do 1038 dps? It really shouldn't take more than a few hours of buying stuff to have a DD that can do 1038 dps.

Really, coming on a reallllly ***DD that still engage and WS isn't much worse than a roll only cor/whm. Don't know why people keep advocating it.
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 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2020-09-20 12:29:06  
I'm arguing that a theoretical player who has been back for a week or so after being gone for years will have a much easier time getting people (old friends, charitable randos) to give them assistance if they can contribute on some level rather than just go full leech- and that Corsair is a job that is capable of doing that far sooner than most others.

That individual could then either continue to play COR (and make it actually not trash) if they so desire or they could gear something else they enjoy more. Or they could do a combination of the two- Corsair shares a lot of gear with other jobs.

In an ideal world, they would just gear their job of choice incrementally through content with an appropriate difficulty level. But it's not uncommon or unreasonable for them to want to save time in a few places.
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 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2020-09-20 12:33:20  
Afania said:
Really, coming on a reallllly ***DD isn't much worse than a roll only cor. Don't know why people keep advocating it.


Afania said:
I don't necessarily agree 100% since multi step SC exists, and multistep SC favors afkers greatly.
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By Afania 2020-09-20 12:46:49  
New DD can just join multistep for longer chains/higher TP closer if that ended up being the strategy. Longer chains/higher TP closer may offset allies/Sam roll benefit too.

Still not seeing huge game changing difference between the two. Do people really care what job a leech come as?
 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2020-09-20 12:53:31  
Siren.Kyte said: »

In an ideal world, they would just gear their job of choice incrementally through content with an appropriate difficulty level. But it's not uncommon or unreasonable for them to want to save time in a few places.

Save time I completely get. Ignoring 5 years of content because its not the glamour content is another.

I really think its time to stop classifying COR as a buff job. Its a DD that provides buffs, and its expected to these days. I don't know why that's so offensive to many when people say that a roll-only COR just isn't acceptable or even worth the party slot. Its just not a good first job. What's so bad about saying that the most expensive job in the game to maximize right now isn't a good place to start?

A +5 roll only COR is barely a fraction of a full COR (no, not a completely decked out COR, a full COR), but an ambu gear WHM in the hands of a person who cares can be easily half of a decked out WHM in terms of value. A dunna GEO who spammed books to get to 900 skill can be the same.

Not to mention viewing battles from the angle of true support jobs gives players a view of game mechanics that are missed by most "DD onry" players who don't understand haste cap, hate mechanics, balancing of buffs, range of AoE moves, status ailments....all these aspect that "bad" DDs just take for granted then are confused when something is off...because they never view the game from that angle.

I can always spot a DD who also plays some support job. They have real hybrid sets. They can tell when something is off buff wise, and have real input on what's missing. They don't spike hate at the very start of a fight foolishly. And you can always tell the DD-onry people who only whine whey they die because "someone didn't support me right". I'd wager I'm not alone.

If you've already built a support job to help shoulder the load and give you a new perspective on the game, but gearing a DD either fast or cheap is your goal, please understand that COR just isn't that job any more. MNK is a great option, very durable, and pretty direct in mechanics. WAR is also a job that becomes viable at basic levels early, but has huge growth potential through its variety- along with viable non-RMEA/non-Su5 weapon choices.
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 Shiva.Arislan
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By Shiva.Arislan 2020-09-20 15:37:20  
Afania said: »
Really, coming on a reallllly ***DD that still engage and WS isn't much worse than a roll only cor/whm. Don't know why people keep advocating it.

Yeah, I actually prefer helping returnees out on hybrid jobs so they can come DPS. It's a lot more rewarding to see them have fun, instead of turning them into a passive audience while I jerk off my own ego.
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By Lili 2020-09-20 15:44:06  
Shiva.Arislan said: »
Yeah, I actually prefer helping returnees out on hybrid jobs so they can come DPS. It's a lot more rewarding to see them have fun, instead of turning them into a passive audience while I jerk off my own ego.

I love what you said in here.

Sadly it's not always viable - depending on the content it's much better if I heavy DD and they cor/brd/geo/whm/rdm. This goes in a situation where it's just my single character and their single character ofc, when alts are involved things change.
 Diabolos.Ghlin
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By Diabolos.Ghlin 2020-09-20 18:20:29  
Who is this mythical minimal effort player who is so hellbent on being shitty and not bettering himself?

Yes, a bad player is bad. But very few of them exist. And, if someone I meet is truly worse than a trust, I would teach them before I shamed them because we are two human beings who share a hobby.

As for spreading misinformation (literally lol'd, what am I a fascist propagandist spreading my insidious ideas?), I would say I was correct on the facts (trust march is 'worse') but wrong on the conclusions. I genuinely did not know that Haste 2 gave that much haste which thus makes Trust haste adequate.

However, if you have a human cor, why then would you summon a second bard or no bard trust? If you have a 5 person party, and you have a human Cor who wants tag along, what kind of party do you have that you need to turn him down? If your 6th part member is a trust bard just for march, then just maybe cor/brd would be good as a substitute so that person could tag along.

Surely his melee, shooting, chaos roll, get you close to similar DPS to that of Ulmia. Tell him to not WS if you need. Also, if you guys are a party of optimizers, you could perhaps have someone else play bard in this hypothetical bardless party that absolutely cannot suffer having a fresh cor in it. If all you need is 1 March, then literally any bard will do.

Thanks... Apologies to anyone who was hurt by my misinformation campaign.
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 Diabolos.Ghlin
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By Diabolos.Ghlin 2020-09-20 18:41:45  
Sorry for second post, I guess I overlooked page 7.

Lol that the new player DD gets alllll the benefit of the doubt. I can say as someone who parses everything, 1000+ DPS is going to be tough for a fresh DD. (Depending on how you define fresh of course). But if we afford this fresh DD the same benefit of the doubt, we have to do that for the fresh cor. Thanks to Rolls, Shooting, heals, status cures, and all the ancillary benefits (stronger evokers, Bolters roll, unique rolls, tp roll when idle, dispel shot, corsair roll, etc) he contributes, again, vastly more than a trust. There is no universe where I turn down a corsair for a trust. Especially when it means I can make a new friend.

Also, do you really want a DD feeding tp, taking damage, dying to aoe... Even a good fresh DD cannot really avoid doing those things. I would say as /dnc he could do steps, haste samba, status cures, though. But cor/dnc could do that too.

I just do not buy it. I think it is fantastic advice to play Cor as a first job and work on improving it. But, I would say, play it only if it intrigues you. I am a huge advocate of playing what you want. Life is too short. I have always felt what makes Cor a great support is that it is "cool" so it appeals to people who might not normally want to play support.
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By Afania 2020-09-20 21:52:25  
Diabolos.Ghlin said: »
However, if you have a human cor, why then would you summon a second bard or no bard trust? If you have a 5 person party, and you have a human Cor who wants tag along, what kind of party do you have that you need to turn him down?

Where did you read that people would turn down a new player for trusts? We were only talking about 2 scenarios in this entire discussion.

1) LS helping the new player to gear up in an easy content:
Basically solo or lowman party carrying a leech. That leech can be on any job and they won't be rejected anyways.

Why do you need to lv roll only COR for this particular scenario? Even if you come on a poorly geared DD and just engage WS you'd have equal or more contribution than a roll only cor.

2) Real content, like ambuscade VD etc.

In this case people really, really, rarely give roll only cor a spot. Almost all ambuscade VD shouts ask for savage blade set on cor. What's the point to gear a roll only cor for such content if everyone shout for SB set?

Gearing a roll only cor takes time. You need to farm a hat from dynamis first, then upgrade it. You need a DT set or else you'd die rerolling. Many niche rolls need empy gears upgrad which is painful to get. Worse yet, you can't just speed up the process to farm these things with merc. It's actually a lot of work for 1/5 of people's weight.

Edit: also if you are doing merc or event that has some kind of drop split, I can see people use trust over a roll only cor. Since trust will never take a portion of drops but roll only cor would. Despite mercing isn't part of discussion I can certainly see this happening in game because of how things work.

Diabolos.Ghlin said: »
Lol that the new player DD gets alllll the benefit of the doubt. I can say as someone who parses everything, 1000+ DPS is going to be tough for a fresh DD.

Spreadsheet number is generally much higher than parse numbers because it assumes no error. The 1000 DPS I mentioned is assuming the other geared DD does 5-6k.

If you geared DD only does 2-3k then the threshold would be more like 400-500 or something. Basically 1/5 of a geared DD.

1/5 of a full dps is really not hard to do with easy to get gears like Kaja axe. Like previously mentioned, sell orb -> buy ambu win can get you full set of ambu armor/ambu axe which covers basic DD/DT set. Surely you can do 1/5 dmg of a geared DD spamming decimation with kaja?

Diabolos.Ghlin said: »
we have to do that for the fresh cor. Thanks to Rolls, Shooting, heals, status cures, and all the ancillary benefits (stronger evokers, Bolters roll, unique rolls, tp roll when idle, dispel shot, corsair roll, etc) he contributes, again, vastly more than a trust.

All of these doesn't matter nearly as much as you make it sound like.

I haven't use evokers roll in any serious content for YEARS, it's not 75 era lol. What makes you think that evokers roll is essential in easy content? I never actually care if cor does evokers roll or just afk.

TP roll when idle isn't anywhere close to game changing. It's 1 free WS after engage. Since cycle time to 1000 TP is like 3 sec...I guess it makes the fight over 3 sec faster? People use TP roll simply because they are way too bored when they idle so they may as well do something. It's not something people would invite a cor for, nor care.

Trusts can use dispel shots, and other mage in the pt can dispel. So it's not anywhere close to necessary.... nevermind the fact that a roll only cor won't have macc set for dispel shot. Can they even land?

If you pt have a real WHM, it's actually detrimental for a cor/whm to cure and remove status ailments.

Divine caress only works when status ailments are removed by whm. If someone removed the ailment before whm it will not proc. Thus subsequent ailment would slow down the DPS if DC isn't proccing.

If I understand the wordings correctly, MP return from whm empy pants only give MP return when cure spell lands. I don't think MP return works if HP is full?(correct me if I'm wrong on this one) So if that's the case why should anyone else except whm cast cure?

And even then whm cure are more efficient per point of MP, and it has cureskin. While cor/whm needs a hell lot more MP support from everyone else to even be functional. I see very very little value from cor/whm support personally.

I don't know why you insist a roll cor/whm has so much contribution? This is just not how today's FFXI work anymore. Cor is a DD job with rolls in today's FFXI. And most of the time theyd probably have more pt contribution spamming SB without TP bonus gun/WSD gear than coming cor/whm removing status ailments and pissing whm off.

And compare with other DD job like war, SB COR is not easier to gear. Mercing a full set of NQ argosy/ambu gears for a functional warrior is faster than building a SB cor. A SB cor needs wsd gears which needs omen/dynamis AND tons of gil. A SB cor needs TP gun which takes days of farming. Starting from scratch Kaja axe DD is 100% easier to gear than SB cor.

SB cor being easy to gear is kinda 2018 thing...since Kaja axe release it's no longer the easiest DD.

So the cor/whm scenario people proposed here are mostly exaggerated. The progress speed/contribution gap between a new cor or the same person picking another easy DD like war isn't nearly as wide as people think.
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By Afania 2020-09-20 22:41:25  
Diabolos.Ghlin said: »
I just do not buy it. I think it is fantastic advice to play Cor as a first job and work on improving it. ...I have always felt what makes Cor a great support is that it is "cool" so it appeals to people who might not normally want to play support.

If people want to play a support job that's cool, play RDM or something. Or be a DD brd whm geo, that's cool. And all of them are cheaper to gear than cor.

If someone pick cor as a 1st job, pretty soon they'll run into people demand SB set when they do ambu. Then it takes days, omen/dyna clear and millions of gil to build one.

Then a ranged month come and they realized their cor can't shoot so it's useless, that's another several millions and aeonic clear to make ra sets.

Then when they try to join wave 3 groups people ask for DP/rostam. That's another several hundred millions.

If they picked any other job, they'd be done with "improving" that specific job before they are done with improving cor.
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 Shiva.Ariaum
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By Shiva.Ariaum 2020-09-20 23:22:01  
Think just letting this die at this point would be a good idea, the guy that made the topic probably already quit again, and you guys are so far off topic its not even funny.
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 Asura.Sirris
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By Asura.Sirris 2020-09-21 00:51:04  
Afania said: »
Diabolos.Ghlin said: »
I just do not buy it. I think it is fantastic advice to play Cor as a first job and work on improving it. ...I have always felt what makes Cor a great support is that it is "cool" so it appeals to people who might not normally want to play support.

If people want to play a support job that's cool, play RDM or something.

Please don't advise people to do this. We have enough horrible red mages buying Su5 and fumbling through content. RDM is a huge gear investment as well and you are expected to perform a broad range of roles in party/alliance play.
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By Afania 2020-09-21 01:12:51  
Asura.Sirris said: »
Afania said: »
Diabolos.Ghlin said: »
I just do not buy it. I think it is fantastic advice to play Cor as a first job and work on improving it. ...I have always felt what makes Cor a great support is that it is "cool" so it appeals to people who might not normally want to play support.

If people want to play a support job that's cool, play RDM or something.

Please don't advise people to do this. We have enough horrible red mages buying Su5 and fumbling through content. RDM is a huge gear investment as well and you are expected to perform a broad range of roles in party/alliance play.

An endgame ready RDM is not more expensive to gear than COR. An endgame RDM doesn't really need any rema, and croc itself is cheaper than any rema. Essential sets like enfeebling set isn't particularly difficult to make either.

The toughest part about playing RDM is understanding big pictures, that's more on knowledge/reaction speed side than paying for gears. And that can be a pro too: as long as you are good with maging, you can outperform rich veteran players with tons of gil.

In past couple of years I think I've spent 2.6-2.7 billion gil on COR and this number is still growing. Why'd anyone recommend COR because "brd RDM geo needs gear/idris/rema" is beyond me.

My RDM only has functional mage/physical DD sets and I've used it in many LS dyna w3 run and ambuscade VD np. Even if I'm gonna make magical DD set like croc it wouldn't cost more than 150m total. On cor you'd be competing with another DP/Rostam cor who spend billions of gil on their gears. Without gil/gear it's very tough to compete because COR is a pure number job.
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By Afania 2020-09-21 01:40:45  
Decided to explain a bit more about why an endgame RDM is cheaper than an endgame cor.

In any dyna D alliance there's like 2 spot for DD COR max......maybe you can use 3 but I strongly prefer not to. Having 3 people spamming leaden salute just decrease ws avg too much. So in an endgame alliance, a cor will be competing against entire LS for 2 valuable cor slot.

If you are the top 3 cor of the LS, congratulations, you get the spot. Otherwise your leaden salute just devalue another better geared cor's leaden salute.

RDM doesn't work that way. It can be a CCer in alliance even without any DPS gear, thus contributing. If you have croc for DD, good for you, you can sit in DD spot as well. If not it's not the end of the world since you can just CC. If you have multiple RDM in the LS, you can let people with croc be a DD and people without croc be a CCer. So an alliance actually has spot for a lesser geared RDM.

Cor is a pure DD job that can buff and RDM is a support that can DD well, that's why there's a difference in gear requirement because DD on RDM is not mandatory. On cor you are always a DD, expected to DD and competing with another rich person with billions of gil.

Shiva.Ariaum said: »
Think just letting this die at this point would be a good idea, the guy that made the topic probably already quit again, and you guys are so far off topic its not even funny.

That guy may not need advice anymore, but I don't see anything wrong with discussing new player friendly job on forums in 2020 as long as valid reasons and accurate informations are provided. New players can read both side of opinion and decide themselves.
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By SimonSes 2020-09-21 04:56:00  
Afania said: »
Decided to explain a bit more about why an endgame RDM is cheaper than an endgame cor.

In any dyna D alliance there's like 2 spot for DD COR max......maybe you can use 3 but I strongly prefer not to. Having 3 people spamming leaden salute just decrease ws avg too much. So in an endgame alliance, a cor will be competing against entire LS for 2 valuable cor slot.

If you are the top 3 cor of the LS, congratulations, you get the spot. Otherwise your leaden salute just devalue another better geared cor's leaden salute.

RDM doesn't work that way. It can be a CCer in alliance even without any DPS gear, thus contributing. If you have croc for DD, good for you, you can sit in DD spot as well. If not it's not the end of the world since you can just CC. If you have multiple RDM in the LS, you can let people with croc be a DD and people without croc be a CCer. So an alliance actually has spot for a lesser geared RDM.

Cor is a pure DD job that can buff and RDM is a support that can DD well, that's why there's a difference in gear requirement because DD on RDM is not mandatory. On cor you are always a DD, expected to DD and competing with another rich person with billions of gil.

I agree with logic itself (assuming you will want COR to be your main), but Im not sure if lesser equipped RDM can CC that well in wave 3. Especially silence on BLUs and RDMs will probably be a huge problem. Not sure about other debuffs. Still much cheaper to build decent enfeebling sets than COR DD sets, but its not something that will take short time. Probably getting to 2100JP gonna be a requirement too.

COR roll only is by far the cheapest and fastest support to make. You dont need much JP, you dont need anything that cost a lot, you dont need capped skills and its SUPER easy to play too. You can arguably also make WHM really fast and for really cheap, but WHM when its needed its very important role that must be played well and I wouldnt expect new player to learn it fast. So I would say roll only COR is a good starting job.




Afania said: »
Why do you need to lv roll only COR for this particular scenario? Even if you come on a poorly geared DD and just engage WS you'd have equal or more contribution than a roll only cor.

For sure not. Assuming Im lowmaning something, I will use my strong solo DD to solo skillchain. DD engaging and feeding tp or breaking skillchains is not contributing at all, but actually the opposite, it would make things harder and fights longer. COR giving me 3rd and 4th roll (fighter's and rogue's for MNK for example) would be a LOT better. Random Deal, Wild Card and Cutting Cards can also be great (RD Impetus on MNK for example or Warcry on WAR, Call wyvern on DRG if something go south etc.) Roll only COR is also very useful for all sorts of pet based lowman.

Afania said: »
Gearing a roll only cor takes time. You need to farm a hat from dynamis first, then upgrade it. You need a DT set or else you'd die rerolling. Many niche rolls need empy gears upgrad which is painful to get.

Thats huge over the top. You wont be doing VD as new player anyway. More like up to D. Even VD can easily be done with COR not doing damage. It just speeds things up (sometimes, because many times you just want solo skillchain). COR can also usually just roll once and doesnt need to reroll while people are engaged. It happens rarely.

Afania said: »
Then a ranged month come and they realized their cor can't shoot so it's useless, that's another several millions and aeonic clear to make ra sets.

There is no lesser equipped job in the game, that will have a place in every Ambuscade. So such "ranged" month will come for whatever job he will choose. Now arguably roll only COR is most useful when damage from COR is just a bonus and thats a lot of months.

Afania said: »
Then when they try to join wave 3 groups people ask for DP/rostam. That's another several hundred millions.
Afania said: »
In any dyna D alliance there's like 2 spot for DD COR max......maybe you can use 3 but I strongly prefer not to. Having 3 people spamming leaden salute just decrease ws avg too much. So in an endgame alliance, a cor will be competing against entire LS for 2 valuable cor slot.

If you are the top 3 cor of the LS, congratulations, you get the spot. Otherwise your leaden salute just devalue another better geared cor's leaden salute.
Afania said: »
Do people really care what job a leech come as?

New player going into wave 3 for clears is assumed to be leeching. It wont compete against 2 COR slots even if its on COR. The composition is closed without that player in mind. He is just a bonus. Arguably the best he can go is probably THF/blm and tag TH, but roll only COR is not bad either. 2 bonus rolls will always bring some value in any pt and its very easy to contribute a little while being a leech, even with 0JP, not capped skils etc.

Afania said: »
New DD can just join multistep for longer chains/higher TP closer if that ended up being the strategy.

No he mostly cant. He would need to make more WS damage than me, which he wont as lesser equipped DD. He wont speed up anything, because I WS like every few seconds. There is also survivability factor. When I solo skillchain I'm usually the only one to heal (by trusts) because Im the only one in range. I also dont feed much tp, so there is no risk to have skillchain broken. I also use things like Malignance for superior meva and DT, so im even more safe when Im solo feeding TP. You say COR requires DT gear for rolls and you talk about DD without one being full time engaged and feeding more TP? Doesnt make sense.

Truth is, roll only COR is very useful for many things, even if you farm gear for other job and dont want to play COR outside of rolling. Its extremely good for new player, because it requires almost no gear, no mechanic skill and no capped skills or JP. It can contribute to many low man strategies. Its also one of the best leeches when it needs to face event way above its current gear, skill etc. because 2 bonus rolls always having value and requiring close to 0 mechanical skill.

The true reason you are against it, is because you are biased. COR is your main and you dont like seeing this job reduced to roll only role and still being successful. Its the same for real SMNs passionate about their job, not liking AC burn only SMNs, even when AC burn only SMNs can be very effective.
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By Mattelot 2020-09-21 07:27:14  
Asura.Sirris said: »
Please don't advise people to do this. We have enough horrible red mages buying Su5 and fumbling through content. RDM is a huge gear investment as well and you are expected to perform a broad range of roles in party/alliance play.

Are there really that many bad SU5 RDM on Asura? I know only a few RDM on Levi who use SU5 and they're all good. Being such a huge gear-intense job, I cannot imagine anyone spending that much money on Crocea only to be a failure.
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By Afania 2020-09-21 08:23:28  
SimonSes said: »
The true reason you are against it, is because you are biased. COR is your main and you dont like seeing this job reduced to roll only role and still being successful.

You made entirely way too much assumption lol.

AH.com main page has shout channel you can read. How often do you see "Ambuscade D/VD, need COR, roll only ok?"

Maybe in 2017 when SMN burn was a thing people would recruit it. I just don't see people recruit it anymore.

As for endgame event, here are some LS recruitment thread.

I love how I post facts about community expectations, then somehow the opinion got devalued just because I main the job. So if I'm a mediocre cor that got rejected by endgame LS would that make my opinion more valid?



SimonSes said: »
I agree with logic itself (assuming you will want COR to be your main), but Im not sure if lesser equipped RDM can CC that well in wave 3. Especially silence on BLUs and RDMs will probably be a huge problem. Not sure about other debuffs.

Sure, landing silence would be difficult in wave 3 on specific mob, not so difficult in every other content at all. So it's still viable for people wanting to play support. My point stands.

SimonSes said: »
COR roll only is by far the cheapest and fastest support to make. You dont need much JP, you dont need anything that cost a lot,

Nobody is saying roll only cor is not cheap to make, we are saying that people rarely invite them because it contributes so little, and almost anyone can do it so there's tons of competitions.

Also cheap to make =/= fast to farm. Hat takes time to farm, so does abyssea seals. And you can't even merc these, unlike ambu points can be done in hours with merc.

SimonSes said: »
Even VD can easily be done with COR not doing damage.

And most VD can be done with 3-5 efficiently(see mercs)...you missed the point.

Nobody is saying that VD can't be done with a leech. We are saying people don't shout for it, nor need it. Thus there aren't many opportunities.

SimonSes said: »
New player going into wave 3 for clears is assumed to be leeching.

Stopped reading here...

Why do you quote 2 of my posts from completely different replies? My first quote was replying Sirris explaining why endgame RDM is cheaper to gear than endgame cor using dyna D w3 alliance as an example. My 2nd quote was replying Ghlin saying people helping a new player in easy content to gear up doesn't care what job the leech come as. It was 2 different scenario.

Not once I said cor leech in dyna wave 3 alliance or something, why do you just randomly create new meaning in my posts by quoting different posts?

Quote:
Its extremely good for new player, because it requires almost no gear, no mechanic skill and no capped skills or JP

Did someone made a post saying roll only cor is a tough job to play? You are making a point that nobody argue against. Of course roll only cor is easy to play.........










It also adds 1/5 people worth of contribution and people really rarely invite them outside of SMN/pet pt or LS being nice.


SimonSes said: »
you dont like seeing this job reduced to roll only role and still being successful.

Okay, if you think roll only cor is "successful". Feel free to invite them. I'm just gonna invite someone else with a DD set lol.
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By Lili 2020-09-21 08:34:51  
Afania said: »
[snip]
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By Afania 2020-09-21 08:39:50  
Lili said: »

Baniak is late on this one.
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By Nariont 2020-09-21 09:11:06  
Mattelot said: »
Asura.Sirris said: »
Please don't advise people to do this. We have enough horrible red mages buying Su5 and fumbling through content. RDM is a huge gear investment as well and you are expected to perform a broad range of roles in party/alliance play.

Are there really that many bad SU5 RDM on Asura? I know only a few RDM on Levi who use SU5 and they're all good. Being such a huge gear-intense job, I cannot imagine anyone spending that much money on Crocea only to be a failure.

You underestimate the stupidity of asuras CC warriors, who only know rdm is good and cocea is good, no idea why this is, just that it is
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By Asura.Sirris 2020-09-21 10:30:32  
Mattelot said: »
Asura.Sirris said: »
Please don't advise people to do this. We have enough horrible red mages buying Su5 and fumbling through content. RDM is a huge gear investment as well and you are expected to perform a broad range of roles in party/alliance play.

Are there really that many bad SU5 RDM on Asura? I know only a few RDM on Levi who use SU5 and they're all good. Being such a huge gear-intense job, I cannot imagine anyone spending that much money on Crocea only to be a failure.

Oh my God yes. Not just Su5 RDMs either. There's RDMs who throw a tantrum when they are asked to do anything other than take up the DD slot with their Savage Blade RDM. This is why bandwagon meta chasing is bad.
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By SimonSes 2020-09-21 11:43:22  
@Afania i might have missed the point, because there was plenty points made in this thread tbh. What I am arguing about is that roll only COR is great for new players.

You say none invite roll only cor to ambuscade or to dynamis. I could argue with that, because outside of Asura people who wait several minutes to find COR will generally rather go on compromise of taking roll only cor instead of waiting another 20 minutes. It heavily depends on time zone and server. Big advantage of roll only cor over another support is that +5 rolls are far less behind +8 rolls cor than +5 geo is behind +10 geo or honor 4songs bard behind 3songs no honor bard. So if you gonna use lesser equiped support, its gonna be usually COR, not BRD or GEO.

Another thing is new player with fresh job shouldnt even expect to join VD shouts or other end game activities as anything else than leech and as leech he is more valuable as roll only COR than some 100 JP decimation WAR with nq abjuration and ambuscade +1.

Another thing is SB set. You highly overestimate the significance of bis gear here. 10%wsd pieces are great, but they are not that much ahead. Especially with low JP and no Naegling where accuracy and attack is kinda important beside raw stats. Maghanada set is pretty good for mediocre SB set. It has good str and mnd and good att and def and 26%pdt, which is great for new player. As for TP set, Malignance is probably the most op starter set ever. Requires no JP and only will of keep trying again till it drop on VE which is soloable even by new players.
So if you really want functional melee SB cor, because people want you to make damage in ambuscade for some reason, then its not that hard. You will make 30-40% less damage than in bis set, but I seriously doubt anyone will tell you "omg why you sb is doing 25k not 35k. Also Malignance is something you want anyway for a lot of reasons, so farming it is never a time lost on job you might not want to main in future, because its useful for tons of jobs and its perfect for THF keying odyssey, which is probably one of the easiest source of great gils for new player.

Conclusion is you dont need to start on RDM or WAR to play RDM or WAR. You can start on roll only cor and be useful from the very begining and work on other jobs and invest in them till the point where they will be more useful than your roll only cor, then start using them.

Lastly for some people trying to bring lesser equipped DD with low JP it might be quite discouraging to see my BRD blonde to do twice more damage (if not more) :P

Afania said: »
Sure, landing silence would be difficult in wave 3 on specific mob, not so difficult in every other content at all. So it's still viable for people wanting to play support. My point stands.

Whenever debuffs are easy to land, they are not required and less valuable than 2 additional rolls.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-09-21 11:46:30  
Honestly, I'm surprised this thread still lives.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2020-09-21 11:48:28  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Honestly, I'm surprised this thread still lives.

This thread is only parsing at 44ppd (posts per day). The parsing is bad thread topped at 55ppd. Time to kick this thread for one that can keep up.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-09-21 11:50:01  
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Honestly, I'm surprised this thread still lives.

This thread is only parsing at 44ppd (posts per day). The parsing is bad thread topped at 55ppd. Time to kick this thread for one that can keep up.
What, did you parse that?

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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2020-09-21 12:02:15  
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Honestly, I'm surprised this thread still lives.

This thread is only parsing at 44ppd (posts per day). The parsing is bad thread topped at 55ppd. Time to kick this thread for one that can keep up.
What, did you parse that?

Yes, and recently this threads bspm (*** per minute) has spiked, possibly due to Soul Voiced Coffee or Bolstered Vodka depending on timezone, but clearly the buffs increased. However, the overall ppd is just too low to compete.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-09-21 12:05:15  
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Honestly, I'm surprised this thread still lives.

This thread is only parsing at 44ppd (posts per day). The parsing is bad thread topped at 55ppd. Time to kick this thread for one that can keep up.
What, did you parse that?

Yes, and recently this threads bspm (*** per minute) has spiked, possibly due to Soul Voiced Coffee or Bolstered Vodka depending on timezone, but clearly the buffs increased. However, the overall ppd is just too low to compete.
I'm guessing that Soul Voice Coffee has a Scherzo effect where it extends the duration of the ***, not the potency.

17 days go!
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By Afania 2020-09-21 12:21:37  
SimonSes said: »
he is more valuable as roll only COR than some 100 JP decimation WAR with nq abjuration and ambuscade +1.

Yeah if Baniak said so.

I posted spreadsheet results this page compare DPS with rolls v.s without, I'm not seeing how 100 JP decimation WAR with nq abjuration and ambuscade +1 wouldn't do 1/5 of dps of a real DD.

No, I'd rather believe my spreadsheet result than someone who randomly join the conversation then just make a statement without anything to backup the point.

Quote:
I could argue with that, because outside of Asura people who wait several minutes to find COR will generally rather go on compromise of taking roll only cor instead of waiting another 20 minutes

Not on Asura and I really really rarely run into a situation that takes 20 min to find a cor lol. This is like the most bandwagoned job in game.

And even if I can't find one, I'd gladly enter ambu with Tank DDx2, brd geo whm setup. I do this setup from time to time when people want to DD, the clear speed isn't much worse than using a mediocre geared cor as 2nd DD. Its only going to be a much better choice than going with a roll only cor lol.

SimonSes said: »
"omg why you sb is doing 25k not 35k.

More like 21k -22k in +1 set depending on whether you finish wotg for the earrings, that's with wsd ambu back too. I actually opened spreadsheet to check this.


Decimation is a 30k WS in NQ Argosy, doesn't even need 2nd ambu back.


SimonSes said: »
You can start on roll only cor and be useful

Not useful no. Not when 100 other people want a 2nd DD slot on a geared cor or on another DD.

SimonSes said: »
Lastly for some people trying to bring lesser equipped DD with low JP it might be quite discouraging to see my BRD blonde to do twice more damage (if not more) :P

I'd gladly parse against your blonde BRD on my NQ argosy Kaja WAR with 700 JP. If you can do twice more dmg than me I'll give you a cookie.

I highly highly doubt a NQ Kaja war won't even do 1/5 dps of a geared DD. I'm not seeing it based on my experience with the weapon. That weapon just has extremely high floor.

Quote:
You can start on roll only cor and be useful from the very begining and work on other jobs and invest in them till the point where they will be more useful than your roll only cor, then start using them.

That's gigantic waste of time and the point has been made for 100 times. It takes hours to gear up a Kaja war if you sell mars orb the pay merc. You get like 2 orb per month? If you activate mid month you get 4 orbs when it reset. That's like 12m free gil.

In easy month ambu I see 3m per VD frequently. So 4 runs = 40k point there for you to spend.

If I'm lving a new character I'm *** not going to lv cor to 99, go all the way out to farm hat and seals just to roll then ditch the job after a few days, it's not worth it. It's much more efficient to start gearing the main job right away. As long as your main job is Kaja friendly DD that is.
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