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October 2019 Version Update
By Aerix 2019-10-14 18:53:01
Actually it was exaggerated, heavily. Look at Thornyy post himself, he stated that MNK was
"the safest, albeit slower, option for almost all melee fights prior to this update."
Yet he was a part of that bandwagon attacking BLU, saying Cocoon made it super overpowered! Because it was the most defensive class as well as offensive! Yet here he says MNK was, so which is it? None of the spells for BLU were adjusted, they were simply left off a few gear options and that is that. Just another bandwagon situation, for any main MNKs better hope that nobody bandwagons it or they'll see the nerf stick next.
Not trying to defend Thornyy or so, but MNK is safe(r) for the entire party because of Subtle Blow, Penance and Mantra (without losing damage), not purely because of its personal sturdiness.
Between Malignance, Barrier Tusk, Cocoon, MG, Saline Coat and Occultation BLU is by far the most resilient DD in the game. But aside from one Diffusion'd buff every 10 mins that doesn't extend to the party. Plus they have to give up DD traits for some of those spells, thereby losing DPS. Sudden Lunge is also fantastic at shutting down mobs, but it really hampers your damage output.
By Afania 2019-10-14 18:55:57
It's almost 2020 and people still hold a grudge about blu discussion from 3.5 years ago, back when entire endgame scene was very different from now.
Nobody is "attacking" blu, nor MNK. We are discussing job balance in a mmo and once again people took it personal.
By 2030 I wouldn't be surprised if another "you talked ***about blu in 2016" comment pop out of nowhere in a community discussion job balance of another job.
By Afania 2019-10-14 19:01:22
Actually it was exaggerated, heavily. Look at Thornyy post himself, he stated that MNK was
"the safest, albeit slower, option for almost all melee fights prior to this update."
Yet he was a part of that bandwagon attacking BLU, saying Cocoon made it super overpowered! Because it was the most defensive class as well as offensive! Yet here he says MNK was, so which is it? None of the spells for BLU were adjusted, they were simply left off a few gear options and that is that. Just another bandwagon situation, for any main MNKs better hope that nobody bandwagons it or they'll see the nerf stick next.
Not trying to defend Thornyy or so, but MNK is safe(r) for the entire party because of Subtle Blow, Penance and Mantra (without losing damage), not purely because of its personal sturdiness.
Between Malignance, Barrier Tusk, Cocoon, MG, Saline Coat and Occultation BLU is by far the most resilient DD in the game. But aside from one Diffusion'd buff every 10 mins that doesn't extend to the party. Plus they have to give up DD traits for some of those spells, thereby losing DPS. Sudden Lunge is also fantastic at shutting down mobs, but it really hampers your damage output.
It doesn't matter.
Mmo job balance changes all the time, so does meta and content. Trying to brought up job discussions from early 2016 in a late 2019 update discussion is pointless. I don't see the relevance between them.
By Chimerawizard 2019-10-14 19:03:08
We need a mage TP/WS set.
acc/m.acc+350 atk/m.eva+600 mab+150 stp/sb2+50 WSD/DT+-30 haste/QA+26
WHM/BLM/BRD/SMN/BLU/SCH/GEO
This way we can end the discussion of which DD to bring. none of them. just bring more support.
[+]
 Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-10-14 19:24:41
Not gonna do it, it's already beaten to death. Every bit of the "nerf blu" talk was accurate, not embellished. It still is, nothing changed, they're just on less gear.
When the same thing comes up (again) and we get page after page, thread after thread about monk only, it'll be accurate too. It is better, in every way, "low ceiling, high floor"
The only part that's wrong, is the subtle blow thing. Subtle blow ain't really worth ***, unless it's one monk as the sole DD. Raise the cap, then it'll be true.
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2019-10-14 19:30:36
BLU was not exaggerated.
Just like MNK won't be. When the tards finally catch on, full blown monk onry. I said all this last week, and multiple times over the last years. They catch on VERY slow though, might not even happen depending on the next job updates.
(I will say that every single ambuscade shout I've seen except for 1 was for MNK though I spend very little time in town now !!<3!!)
Actually it was exaggerated, heavily. Look at Thornyy post himself, he stated that MNK was
"the safest, albeit slower, option for almost all melee fights prior to this update."
Yet he was a part of that bandwagon attacking BLU, saying Cocoon made it super overpowered! Because it was the most defensive class as well as offensive! Yet here he says MNK was, so which is it? None of the spells for BLU were adjusted, they were simply left off a few gear options and that is that. Just another bandwagon situation, for any main MNKs better hope that nobody bandwagons it or they'll see the nerf stick next. I don't know how the **** you're still salty over something from years ago, but at the time BLU had top(or close) DPS while also being incredibly defensive, so I suggested it should be nerfed.
Now, MNK has top(or close) DPS while also being incredibly defensive, so I suggested the buff was out of place and should be reverted.
I played BLU then, I play MNK now. I have nothing against your precious baby, I just call things as I see them.
The only part that's wrong, is the subtle blow thing. Subtle blow ain't really worth ***, unless it's one monk as the sole DD. Raise the cap, then it'll be true. If you actually do the math, it has a significant effect on both number of TP moves and average TP per TP move(people don't think this matters, but many TP moves are near-lethal at 3000 and relatively weak at lower TP) as long as you are doing a single party event with subtle blow DPS.
It becomes relatively worthless in an alliance vs a single large mob, but vs small mobs in an alliance you'll still notice a difference because you're able to kill the monster before it gains TP more reliably.
It is objectively not worthless unless you consider all TP moves irrrelevant, and it's very easy to support with math.
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-10-14 19:38:05
With react, cap DT, infinite MP, mews, stuns, obscene meva, occult omen and/or regain
Pretty much everything is relegated to mild annoyance at best. Nothing is run ending or crippling enough to cause time out. Obviously QH/ZanaX being outliers.
Yes it's 3 seconds faster to not get hit with "unlimited amounts of debuffs". On paper there's a very obvious gain to even small amounts of subtle blow. In reality no one cares.
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2019-10-14 19:44:41
On paper there's a very obvious gain to even small amounts of subtle blow. In reality no one cares.
I'll take that. People may not care in general, but it's still something and I enjoy having it.
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 2666
By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-10-14 19:46:13
The effect of subtle blow wildly depends on the content. Plenty of mobs have regain making subtle blow almost useless, and some situations if you're paired with DD's without much of it, the DD with subtle blow has no real benefit there. But if you actually utilize it as an intended mechanic, it can be extremely useful. And some smart players will do exactly that. That's about all that can be expected to happen.
By Aerix 2019-10-14 20:03:48
Every DD has a minimum of +25 SB from a WHM's Auspice. With the heavy DD slot in a 6-man party having capped SB with Penance on top of that it makes a very noticeable difference. In comparison, DRK's tend to have very low SB as Endark II overwrites Auspice. And although RDM isn't a heavy DD they also cannot benefit from it without ruining their Enspell damage.
[+]
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3189
By Fenrir.Skarwind 2019-10-14 20:10:52
Good SB options for WAR/DRK/DRG/SAM if its really a big deal..
Flamma +2 Body = SB +17
or
Dagon = SB II+10
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Chirich +1 = SB+10
Niqmaddu = SB II +5
Dign. Earring = SB+5
Spells:
Auspice = +25
For DRG only add Sherida Earring
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-10-14 20:13:13
But equipping those lower deeps by 1% and it's just physically impossible to kill something 5 seconds slower.
That makes you gimp.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3189
By Fenrir.Skarwind 2019-10-14 20:22:52
But equipping those lower deeps by 1% and it's just physically impossible to kill something 5 seconds slower.
That makes you gimp.
Probably
By Aerix 2019-10-14 20:41:05
Every job can cap out SB with Su5 in theory, it's just that most aren't willing to give up DT/MEVA or offensive stats for it.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2666
By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-10-14 20:45:26
Every job can cap out SB with Su5 in theory, it's just that most aren't willing to give up DT/MEVA or offensive stats for it.
Mainhand only.
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Game: FFXI
Posts: 3184
By Asura.Geriond 2019-10-14 20:54:42
Every DD has a minimum of +25 SB from a WHM's Auspice. With the heavy DD slot in a 6-man party having capped SB with Penance on top of that it makes a very noticeable difference. In comparison, DRK's tend to have very low SB as Endark II overwrites Auspice. And although RDM isn't a heavy DD they also cannot benefit from it without ruining their Enspell damage. It doesn't quite make up for losing Auspice, but Last Resort gives 15 SB with the DB augment.
By SimonSes 2019-10-14 21:02:48
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »You tried to make a really long and impressive list there, but the truth is most of that is not only not passive, but not relevant. Drain3 is amazing, dread spikes is helpful in the same vein as perfect counter(most mobs don't do relevant melee damage any more so meh). Apocalypse is irrelevant with a healer and cripples your damage. The only important break is armor break, and MNK has shell crusher anyway. Stun is rarely used(all the new HTBC and dyna bosses have instant TP anyway). Having 5 weapon type options that are all slashing doesn't exactly mean anything. Absorbs besides Attri are garbage. DRK SPs are both worse than MNK SPs.
Stacking DRKs means eating more 3000tp enemy tp, and eating more total enemy tp moves. Stacking MNKs will drastically reduce the average TP when moves are used, and the quantity of moves used. Mixing DRK with other DPS does nothing for their survivability, mixing MNK with other DPS helps everyone.
Max HP has very limited benefits after a certain point as well, the goal generally being to survive through the longest period of time you can go without a cure, under the worst circumstances. Generally, this will be a TP move > attack round, or a spell > TP move, or a combination of 2 attacks by the opponent. Given MNK's higher DT in their optimal sets, there are very few situations where this will make DRK's additional HP a relevant change, and you also have chakra for an instant high-potency heal and perfect counter to prevent a follow-up melee killing you.
The biggest cases where DRK seems to be legitimately more survivable involve fixed-damage TP moves or insane melee damage, neither of which are prevalent in today's endgame.
You are so biased lol.. Maybe you should bandwagon DRK, so you have an idea of what you are talking about.
Dread Spikes is NOT as good as counter. Counter without counterstance has 22%rate? Dread spikes is 100% rate and when you have 7000-9999HP, your Dread Spikes is a 6100-8900 buffer. You can literally forget that auto attack exist with that high Dread Spikes and you can also hold a lot of mobs on you (in Dynamis D for example) and don't really care about it. If you want to compare Dread Spikes and Counter than go pull whole floor of mobs at Omen and see if you can survive on MNK.
Apocalypse is very relevant, because many times you dont need healer at all with it and this open low man setups that are normally impossible.
Having 5 weapon type options that are all slashing DOES mean a lot actually. It opens way more options for skillchaining. You have options for Light and Darkness skillchains. You also have utility WSs like Shockwave (amazing WS for lowman/cleaving), Entropy (mp restore), Fell Cleave (high AoE damage), -25% def WSs, -25% attack WSs, elemental/nonElemental magic WSs. Now MNK only have good option for Light skillchains and has no magic WS or Def down WS without switching to very inferior weapon.
DRK SPs are worse? lol? Hundred Fists is probably a DPS loss if you are already haste capped and Inner Strength gives you enough HP to maybe match DRK for 30 sec and 100% counter rate that still isnt as good as dread Spikes to mitigate melee damage. Now Soul Enslavement pretty much completely shuts down enemy TP, while your TP gain is significantly boosted. It's FAR more potent than MNK SPs, especially with dread spikes combo and especially against mobs with regain that laugh at your subtle blow.
Another thing that DRK has is Arcane Circle. +17% damage and -17%DT against demons for whole party is OP when applicable.
Stun is very useful and you can stun many things not only TP moves. You can stun hard hitting spells or break sequences of moves that proc some behavior. You can stun just to give yourself room for casting. You can use Weapon Bash>Infernal Scythe (or Nightmare Scythe) for easy Compression skillchain that allows you to MB Drain III on stunned enemy.
I dont understand what you dont understand in having 7000HP + dread spikes. Even if you take a MNK with 50% DT vs a 7000HP DRK with 0%DT and dread spikes, you still have more effective HP and better defense against TP move + melee hit combo. Now if you take 9999HP DRK with DT, then you can survive like 3+ times more than MNK without being cured. DRK has far greater survivability, unless you fight against undead or mob with frequent dispel.
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 258
By Bahamut.Eternallight 2019-10-14 21:09:32
100% counter for 30 seconds is actually super badass :p
The rest you might be right on, but there is an advantage to be able to just negate things like 100 fists.
By SimonSes 2019-10-14 21:20:52
Bahamut.Eternallight said: »100% counter for 30 seconds is actually super badass :p
The rest you might be right on, but there is an advantage to be able to just negate things like 100 fists.
6000-8000HP dread spikes + some DT can negate 100 fists too and you can recast it pretty fast for another 100fists unlike Inner Strength.
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2019-10-14 21:22:29
Unless youre muted, or knocked back, or have all your mp stolen or it has dispel
Or the 95% that don't even use drain/dread
By SimonSes 2019-10-14 21:28:07
Or the 95% that don't even use drain/dread Their problem not mine or DRK in general :P One entropy will restore full MP. Another thing is unlike Dread Spikes, Counter wont work when you are stunned or have mobs attacking from different directions.
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Posts: 267
By Asura.Outlawbruce 2019-10-14 21:29:22
Unless youre muted, or knocked back, or have all your mp stolen or it has dispel
Or the 95% that don't even use drain/dread
Yeah, I get the argument on Drk. But they're always dead. Because AoE exists and dread spikes are worthless and most content that's worth anything spams AoE. And Drain III barely works ok anything endgame.
Relying on staying alive based off a weaponskill is horrible. I've seen so many dead drks dead because of their apocs missing.
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 258
By Bahamut.Eternallight 2019-10-14 21:38:31
Sounds like situational ***is situational lol
[+]
 Bahamut.Empyrean
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 175
By Bahamut.Empyrean 2019-10-14 22:01:50
Asura.Outlawbruce said: »Unless youre muted, or knocked back, or have all your mp stolen or it has dispel
Or the 95% that don't even use drain/dread
Yeah, I get the argument on Drk. But they're always dead. Because AoE exists and dread spikes are worthless and most content that's worth anything spams AoE. And Drain III barely works ok anything endgame.
Relying on staying alive based off a weaponskill is horrible. I've seen so many dead drks dead because of their apocs missing.
Drain barely works ok on anything endgame?
I was at dyna running 6k-7k hp all night long including wave 3 boss, so someone needs to work on their magic acc in their drain set.
Apoc missing?
Again, that sounds like someone needs to work on their acc sets.
The only time I die on drk is when a mob pulls the random turn and ws on me when I have LR up and I was in ratri during ws.
Drk is one of the harder jobs to kill right now. I pulled hate on wave 3 boss right as adds popped over the weekend and I went -dt with dread spikes and lived.
Granted we have good healers in the linkshell. But I was running 6k+ hp at the time, went -50% dt, and had dread spikes up. There was just as much my responsibility to do what I can to survive as it was the healers to cure me.
You seem to be blaming the job instead of the player.
edit:
While drk doesn't get as much subtle blow as mnk, it still gets a pretty hefty amount.
ItemSet 368498
ItemSet 369095
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Posts: 2666
By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-10-14 22:05:04
No, it's still very much situational ***is situational. Omen has dark resistant bosses, so DRK and COR are weaker, whereas Dyna-D has constant double Dark weather, so DRK and COR are at their best. Most jobs fall between the ranges those jobs fall into between Omen and Dyna-D, and that's...perfectly fine.
[+]
Bahamut.Empyrean
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 175
By Bahamut.Empyrean 2019-10-14 22:08:22
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »No, it's still very much situational ***is situational. Omen has dark resistant bosses, so DRK and COR are weaker, whereas Dyna-D has constant double Dark weather, so DRK and COR are at their best. Most jobs fall between the ranges those jobs fall into between Omen and Dyna-D, and that's...perfectly fine.
Arcance Circle/Killer and Founder's body
 Asura.Shiraj
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1031
By Asura.Shiraj 2019-10-14 22:09:15
Let's be real, it's all about blaming the WHM no matter what happens.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 576
By Asura.Meliorah 2019-10-14 22:38:27
Asura.Outlawbruce said: »Unless youre muted, or knocked back, or have all your mp stolen or it has dispel
Or the 95% that don't even use drain/dread
Yeah, I get the argument on Drk. But they're always dead. Because AoE exists and dread spikes are worthless and most content that's worth anything spams AoE. And Drain III barely works ok anything endgame.
Relying on staying alive based off a weaponskill is horrible. I've seen so many dead drks dead because of their apocs missing.
Drain barely works ok on anything endgame?
I was at dyna running 6k-7k hp all night long including wave 3 boss, so someone needs to work on their magic acc in their drain set.
Apoc missing?
Again, that sounds like someone needs to work on their acc sets.
The only time I die on drk is when a mob pulls the random turn and ws on me when I have LR up and I was in ratri during ws.
Drk is one of the harder jobs to kill right now. I pulled hate on wave 3 boss right as adds popped over the weekend and I went -dt with dread spikes and lived.
Granted we have good healers in the linkshell. But I was running 6k+ hp at the time, went -50% dt, and had dread spikes up. There was just as much my responsibility to do what I can to survive as it was the healers to cure me.
You seem to be blaming the job instead of the player.
edit:
While drk doesn't get as much subtle blow as mnk, it still gets a pretty hefty amount.
ItemSet 368498
ItemSet 369095
Don't forget to make an auspice up and auspice down set for those conditions where you don't cap subtle blow because it's totally not a buzz topic that wont be lost to discussion in the next version update.
[+]
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 267
By Asura.Outlawbruce 2019-10-14 23:04:30
Asura.Outlawbruce said: »Unless youre muted, or knocked back, or have all your mp stolen or it has dispel
Or the 95% that don't even use drain/dread
Yeah, I get the argument on Drk. But they're always dead. Because AoE exists and dread spikes are worthless and most content that's worth anything spams AoE. And Drain III barely works ok anything endgame.
Relying on staying alive based off a weaponskill is horrible. I've seen so many dead drks dead because of their apocs missing.
Drain barely works ok on anything endgame?
I was at dyna running 6k-7k hp all night long including wave 3 boss, so someone needs to work on their magic acc in their drain set.
Apoc missing?
Again, that sounds like someone needs to work on their acc sets.
The only time I die on drk is when a mob pulls the random turn and ws on me when I have LR up and I was in ratri during ws.
Drk is one of the harder jobs to kill right now. I pulled hate on wave 3 boss right as adds popped over the weekend and I went -dt with dread spikes and lived.
Granted we have good healers in the linkshell. But I was running 6k+ hp at the time, went -50% dt, and had dread spikes up. There was just as much my responsibility to do what I can to survive as it was the healers to cure me.
You seem to be blaming the job instead of the player.
edit:
While drk doesn't get as much subtle blow as mnk, it still gets a pretty hefty amount.
ItemSet 368498
ItemSet 369095
Don't forget to make an auspice up and auspice down set for those conditions where you don't cap subtle blow because it's totally not a buzz topic that wont be lost to discussion in the next version update.
Oh jesus. This could go on forever.
Yes, all jobs can do a subtle blow set. Do they ever utilize it? No. Absolutely no one does it (because their precious DPS). Also, when you're in a SB set youre not in a DT set, or a magic evasion set or a very strong DPS set. You risk something no matter what.
The point being made is monk can be in DT, highest magic evasion set, high STP, capped subtle blow and high acc set without really having to risk any form of DPS. it's in a way better place for survivability and utility and doesnt have to rely on magic for that. This all comes from the update and lilith gear.
It's just a matter of time before theres a new HTB for sam,war,drk that could possibly make them top again. Right now, for the butt hurt drk bandwagon Torecleaver makers, it's not.
Asura.Shiraj
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1031
By Asura.Shiraj 2019-10-14 23:12:50
I dunno why people use Torcleaver. The weaponskill never hits.
Ground Strike > Torcleaver.
Update Notes
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/55997-October.-10-2019-%28JST%29-Version-Update
Items
New Items - https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/October_2019_Version_Update_Changes
Changed Items - https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/October_2019_Version_Update_Changes/Existing_Items
Other
Probably going to be a very slim update in terms of new items. We know we are getting the Autumn Tree from the Login Campaign, as well as a new Food (Turkey with rolanberry sauce) also in the Login Campaign. This is probably the "long name" of the item, and itll actually be something shorter. Matsui mentioned this quote in the update teaser post: Quote: If your favorite hobby is eating, then you’ll have something to look forward to in Vana’diel, as we’ve got a special new seasonal food item coming that may seem familiar to our North American players.
Other than those two things, I am doubtful of anything else new. Maybe something for the Halloween event, but we will see.
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