October 2019 Version Update

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October 2019 Version Update
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-10-14 12:12:05  
eh. The last update to Monk was in December, the h2h accuracy adjustment. It was not an insignificant bonus, as it indirectly improved Counter and Impetus potential by a good amount. And that wasn't even a "Monk specific" update, by definition. Aside from the extra HP, this recent update wasn't "Monk specific" either, it just was listed that way. The only people who complained about the last MNKdate were the bandwagoners who pop in the thread every fortnight asking if Monk was fixed, yet.

If we're going to keep score, PUP has gotten the most out of all of these job updates, since they got direct tweaks to the job and attachments, ON TOP OF whatever bonuses Monk got to their acc/wsd. And absolutely nobody is complaining that PUP is getting too much bonus.
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By SimonSes 2019-10-14 12:16:17  
For me DRK dps is highly overrated (I have DRK btw, Im not biased) and his utility is highly underrated. If MNK is considered DD with excellent survivability because of high HP and high DT, how can you overlook that DRK in 90% fights can have like 2-3x more HP than MNK and has access to utility weapon that can full cure that 7k HP every few seconds? Like other said you have another 5000-6700 buffer in dread spikes. Only 2 things can screw DRK survivability - undeads and dispel. Without one of those DRK has the most survivability in game and its not a small margin, it's by miles. Now you have Stuns, Absorb-attri, Breaks, Gsword/scythe/axe/gaxe/sword options (Ambu gaxe on DRK is basically an ilvl119+ TP+1000 gaxe...), Absorbs, Utility SP that drains TP. I would argue that it has easily more utility than MNK and MNK is more pure DPS job than DRK >.>

Now DRK's dps? Its probably lower than MNK's now. When holding TP Torcleaver is about as strong as avg Raging Fists (Torcleaver is like 1k stronger at 1000TP, but 3k less at 2000TP) and DRK's white damage is a little higher with AM3 vs Godhands without Impetus, but during Impetus they are the same and during Footwork TK is even stronger than Raging.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2019-10-14 12:18:17  
MNK was the safest, albeit slower, option for almost all melee fights prior to this update. I don't think SE intends to roll it back, but the truth is that it was largely unneeded. If people only want to do max dps and forego everything else, that means giving up the utility of jobs like MNK in favor of more focused jobs like WAR and DRK. It was a situation where, while most people were too stubborn to try MNK, it was still actually very effective if you were willing to use it.

Now, if your goal is successfully clearing content in a reasonable timeframe, there is no gameplay-related reason to use any DPS besides MNK. If your goal is setting clear time records, other jobs may still be valuable. The old situation was far more balanced than the new one, despite the persistant myth that you need very high DPS to do well in FFXI.
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2019-10-14 12:28:33  
You tried to make a really long and impressive list there, but the truth is most of that is not only not passive, but not relevant. Drain3 is amazing, dread spikes is helpful in the same vein as perfect counter(most mobs don't do relevant melee damage any more so meh). Apocalypse is irrelevant with a healer and cripples your damage. The only important break is armor break, and MNK has shell crusher anyway. Stun is rarely used(all the new HTBC and dyna bosses have instant TP anyway). Having 5 weapon type options that are all slashing doesn't exactly mean anything. Absorbs besides Attri are garbage. DRK SPs are both worse than MNK SPs.

Stacking DRKs means eating more 3000tp enemy tp, and eating more total enemy tp moves. Stacking MNKs will drastically reduce the average TP when moves are used, and the quantity of moves used. Mixing DRK with other DPS does nothing for their survivability, mixing MNK with other DPS helps everyone.

Max HP has very limited benefits after a certain point as well, the goal generally being to survive through the longest period of time you can go without a cure, under the worst circumstances. Generally, this will be a TP move > attack round, or a spell > TP move, or a combination of 2 attacks by the opponent. Given MNK's higher DT in their optimal sets, there are very few situations where this will make DRK's additional HP a relevant change, and you also have chakra for an instant high-potency heal and perfect counter to prevent a follow-up melee killing you.

The biggest cases where DRK seems to be legitimately more survivable involve fixed-damage TP moves or insane melee damage, neither of which are prevalent in today's endgame.
 Asura.Shiraj
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-10-14 12:29:27  
I think people use the "zerg" meta because it basically ignores the core mechanics if possible and just spam WS for big numbers and push through it and if you wipe, blame the whm.

Always the whm.
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 Bahamut.Eternallight
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By Bahamut.Eternallight 2019-10-14 12:32:20  
Asura.Shiraj said: »
I think people use the "zerg" meta because it basically ignores the core mechanics if possible and just spam WS for big numbers and push through it and if you wipe, blame the whm.

Always the whm.

A lot of this.
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By Nariont 2019-10-14 12:40:15  
hasnt even been a week yet and mnks already in "dangerously strong" territory?
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By oyama 2019-10-14 12:47:52  
Quote:
there is no gameplay-related reason to use any DPS besides MNK

This is such an exaggeration and is more or less the same kind of thinking that made people dismiss MNK (and even other DDs) outright to begin with. Maybe I'm wrong about what you're getting at, but I think you mean to say there is no gameplay-related reason not to use MNK as heavy DPS any more.
 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-10-14 13:11:12  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
eh. The last update to Monk was in December, the h2h accuracy adjustment. It was not an insignificant bonus, as it indirectly improved Counter and Impetus potential by a good amount. And that wasn't even a "Monk specific" update, by definition. Aside from the extra HP, this recent update wasn't "Monk specific" either, it just was listed that way. The only people who complained about the last MNKdate were the bandwagoners who pop in the thread every fortnight asking if Monk was fixed, yet.

If we're going to keep score, PUP has gotten the most out of all of these job updates, since they got direct tweaks to the job and attachments, ON TOP OF whatever bonuses Monk got to their acc/wsd. And absolutely nobody is complaining that PUP is getting too much bonus.
I was talking about the previous actual monk update, which was the one where they screwed with Boost/Dodge/Focus.


While Blood Weapon is garbage, I'd still pick Soul Enslavement over Inner Strength. SE can block mob TP moves better than any amount of Subtle Blow when in in non-alliance settings (alliance settings is just too much TP feed), while also increasing DRK's DPS by a huge amount to boot.
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By Draylo 2019-10-14 13:25:11  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
calling it now: people are gonna start flat out lying about how good monk already was in order to get it nerfed back down. just like people did with the WSD glitch.

More like for what they did for BLU, all those threads. Now its never mentioned, only because it was left off a few gear options and they updated BRD a little, lol. That MNK statement is blown way out of proportion, there are plenty of reasons to bring other DD.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-10-14 13:29:52  
BLU was not exaggerated.

Just like MNK won't be. When the tards finally catch on, full blown monk onry. I said all this last week, and multiple times over the last years. They catch on VERY slow though, might not even happen depending on the next job updates.

(I will say that every single ambuscade shout I've seen except for 1 was for MNK though I spend very little time in town now !!<3!!)
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2019-10-14 13:37:17  
All the H2H WS update was make MNK viable as a pure DD in comparison to other options in the same slot. MNK, as a job, was already in good condition, H2H WS on the other hand were terribad. In today's meta where Haste + Samurai's Roll dominate for damage amplification, having a shitty WS selection makes any DPS not worth using. Now that SE's fixed that problem, MNK's back into the rotation. Interestingly enough DRG also got a ~VERY~ significant WS damage boost which accomplished the same thing. Now lets see how many bandwagoners screw this up.

Now the job selection for a pure DPS slot is (WAR/SAM/DRK/DRG/MNK) with the utility DPS slots being for (BLU/NIN/THF/DNC/COR/RNG). COR is weird because it can be extreme damage when conditions are specifically tailored to them, yet they tend to wither and melt the moment a stiff breeze blows past them.
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By oyama 2019-10-14 13:59:17  
Quote:
(I will say that every single ambuscade shout I've seen except for 1 was for MNK though I spend very little time in town now !!<3!!)

Right, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the amnesia aura this month.
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By Afania 2019-10-14 14:20:55  
Nariont said: »
hasnt even been a week yet and mnks already in "dangerously strong" territory?


People asked for WS adjustments back in 2015 - 2016 when the job was really behind.

Since then MNK got buffed several times and it was pretty damn close to other DD before this update.

Does it need a buff? Probably yes. Does it needs a buff THIS huge? I doubt it.

But whatever. Job balance debate always seem to trigger people so I rather not to start another 20 pages of argument because of it.
 Bahamut.Eternallight
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By Bahamut.Eternallight 2019-10-14 14:22:36  
I mean, in fairness, its a h2h WS buff rather than a monk buff, so it also helped pups and anyone else who has some reason to use h2h for whatever reason. (I guess war?)
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By Nariont 2019-10-14 14:26:40  
Afania said: »
Since then MNK got buffed several times

Unless im mistaken it got "buffed" once and that was more a h2h wide buff much like this one was with the acc cap increase. The last mnk specific buff outside of increasing delay on h2h which was another h2h general cange rather than mnk specific was pretty poor. Boost was made arguably worse, dodge/focus kind of got an increase in exchange for much shorter durations, and that was basically it.

I dont necessarily disagree that it got potentially more than it should have, but again, its been less than a week.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-10-14 14:38:15  
oyama said: »
Quote:
(I will say that every single ambuscade shout I've seen except for 1 was for MNK though I spend very little time in town now !!<3!!)

Right, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the amnesia aura this month.

Every empyrean weapon is good with amnesia. Relics too. It's not mnk specific.
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By oyama 2019-10-14 14:42:17  
Monk has excellent white damage without an afterglowed Empyrean or a relic.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-10-14 14:50:36  
It's asura. Ain't no one doing anything without rema.

Your moogle literally will not let you leave the moghouse without one, if you accidentally walk in before you get one... guess you have to uninstall.
By volkom 2019-10-14 15:04:30  
Next update ~ Mnk nerfs
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 Bahamut.Negan
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By Bahamut.Negan 2019-10-14 15:39:39  
volkom said: »
Next update ~ Mnk nerfs
Torcleaver nerfs! :O
By volkom 2019-10-14 15:39:59  
Bahamut.Negan said: »
volkom said: »
Next update ~ Mnk nerfs
Torcleaver nerfs! :O

:O!
 Bahamut.Eternallight
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By Bahamut.Eternallight 2019-10-14 15:49:44  
Next update is actually a nerf to katana WS (Not great katana) and to make utsusemi less potent as its already too strong.
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By Chimerawizard 2019-10-14 16:12:52  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
It's asura. Ain't no one doing anything without rema.

Your moogle literally will not let you leave the moghouse without one, if you accidentally walk in before you get one... guess you have to uninstall.
Not true, if you jobchange to RDM or SCH, the moogle will let you leave without a REMA, however he does require you to grab the SU5 weapon.
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 Ragnarok.Inx
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2019-10-14 16:28:33  
oyama said: »
Monk has excellent white damage without an afterglowed Empyrean or a relic.

Which isn't much of a consolation when the better WS damage options across many jobs are so strong these days.

You can't skillchain off white damage, or magic burst off of that skillchain. A dd with just high white damage potential is inherently of less value than one that is just a WS engine, and even less compared to one that can do both heavy spike and sustained damage.
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By oyama 2019-10-14 16:38:12  
Quote:
Right, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the amnesia aura this month.
 Asura.Outlawbruce
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By Asura.Outlawbruce 2019-10-14 16:47:21  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
oyama said: »
Quote:
(I will say that every single ambuscade shout I've seen except for 1 was for MNK though I spend very little time in town now !!<3!!)

Right, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the amnesia aura this month.

Every empyrean weapon is good with amnesia. Relics too. It's not mnk specific.

Besides the fact monks has impetus and the other empy peeps dont. And monk has capped subtle blow so the stewards dont pop as frequent.
All empys do have good white damage. But clearly top two are monk and warrior. But clearly monk because, you know, #subtleblowmatters
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By Aerix 2019-10-14 16:54:44  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
If we're going to keep score, PUP has gotten the most out of all of these job updates, since they got direct tweaks to the job and attachments, ON TOP OF whatever bonuses Monk got to their acc/wsd. And absolutely nobody is complaining that PUP is getting too much bonus.

That's because practically nobody plays PUP as a melee DD. The majority sees it as nothing but a tank or pet burn job.

All these tweaks to HTH just made PUP so much stronger than its Automaton that the gap between the two in a fully buffed situation is absolutely massive. The entirety of MNK's kit is affected by buffs, however, hence it's far ahead of PUP in terms of DPS. Which is why you don't see anybody complaining about PUP since DPS is all people care about.
 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-10-14 17:35:05  
Aerix said: »
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
If we're going to keep score, PUP has gotten the most out of all of these job updates, since they got direct tweaks to the job and attachments, ON TOP OF whatever bonuses Monk got to their acc/wsd. And absolutely nobody is complaining that PUP is getting too much bonus.

That's because practically nobody plays PUP as a melee DD. The majority sees it as nothing but a tank or pet burn job.

All these tweaks to HTH just made PUP so much stronger than its Automaton that the gap between the two in a fully buffed situation is absolutely massive. The entirety of MNK's kit is affected by buffs, however, hence it's far ahead of PUP in terms of DPS. Which is why you don't see anybody complaining about PUP since DPS is all people care about.

Yeah, unless they made it so Autos get the same buffs as a master, instead of need an entirely different gear and buffset, PUP is forever going to be in this position.
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By Draylo 2019-10-14 18:44:39  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
BLU was not exaggerated.

Just like MNK won't be. When the tards finally catch on, full blown monk onry. I said all this last week, and multiple times over the last years. They catch on VERY slow though, might not even happen depending on the next job updates.

(I will say that every single ambuscade shout I've seen except for 1 was for MNK though I spend very little time in town now !!<3!!)

Actually it was exaggerated, heavily. Look at Thornyy post himself, he stated that MNK was

"the safest, albeit slower, option for almost all melee fights prior to this update."

Yet he was a part of that bandwagon attacking BLU, saying Cocoon made it super overpowered! Because it was the most defensive class as well as offensive! Yet here he says MNK was, so which is it? None of the spells for BLU were adjusted, they were simply left off a few gear options and that is that. Just another bandwagon situation, for any main MNKs better hope that nobody bandwagons it or they'll see the nerf stick next.
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