The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Sylph.Atigevomega
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By Sylph.Atigevomega 2018-02-01 15:42:36  
I never got emotional though, I simply stated the situations it can be stronger, which is outside of ms reso spam, which is rare but can happen, case and point it can happen on schah. I wasn't saying you were wrong for saying reso is better, simply for saying that every other rmea is useless. That's it, simply stating where there are uses. This way if someone wants to make it they can and still know hey it's not the best, but it can still do ok, and better then your average. I take time to math out every set, to make sure ***is good, then field test and go over things again. This is how I get better and to the point I am. Of course, having the gear does bolster this as well.
[+]
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-02-01 15:53:58  
Sylph.Atigevomega said: »
which is outside of ms reso spam

I never said anything about MS reso, I'm talking purely about WS spam for prolonged periods of time. Monte +1 and Raetic beat everything else WAR has access too. Raetic is broke as *** inside Escha due to MP vorseals jacking up the proc rate, refresh vorseals just extend the time you can be under it and your friendly GEO and BRD can be poping mana powders / mists to further extend it. Monte +1 is broken anytime where Raetic isn't viable, Store TP +11, TA +5 and higher delay lets you pack on stupid amounts of MA. It's literally WS -> Attack -> WS -> Attack and sometimes WS -> WS -> WS because retaliation can proc during WS and you get a full attack round when it does.

Ukon suffers for the same reason several other Empy's like Redemption and Rhongomiant do, great AM tied to a shitty impractical WS and being unable to take full advantage of the +50 stat on the weapon. The only reasons Cala and Masa work is their AM WS's scale with TP and can be made to do extremely high damage. Quietus, Camlann's Torment and Ukko's Fury don't scale and the better WS's to use don't get as much from those weapons are others.

I don't know how else to put this, for DPS spam use Monte +1 / Raetic, for SC use Chango. A free UNM weapon or a 3.3 mil AH weapon will both beat Ukon in all situations that don't involve constant Amnesia. If you are constantly being Amnesia'd then you need to reevaluate the method of your fight.
 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2018-02-01 15:56:34  
In other news, I was augmenting a pair of Odyssean Gloves last night and I happened to get VIT +10 WSD +5%, but only 8 atk (and 18 magic accuracy). That's got 2/3 perfect augs, missing the accuracy for a High TP Upheaval, so I'm wondering, with other gear, is it ok to ignore acc on this piece or do I need to try to get one with acc? This is literally the first time I've ever seen a max WSD aug that didn't have like 1 CHA only or something on it.

Also, for the other pieces that I need to aug, Head/Legs would you do Valorous or Odyssean for the aug?
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-02-01 15:57:41  
Sylph.Atigevomega said: »
I never got emotional though, I simply stated the situations it can be stronger, which is outside of ms reso spam, which is rare but can happen, case and point it can happen on schah. I wasn't saying you were wrong for saying reso is better, simply for saying that every other rmea is useless. That's it, simply stating where there are uses. This way if someone wants to make they can and still now hey it's not the best, but it can still do ok, and better then your average. I take time to math out every set, to make sure ***is good, then field test and go over things again. This is how I get better and to the point I am. Of course, having the gear does bolster this as well.
I would like to see that math, please
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-02-01 16:09:09  
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
In other news, I was augmenting a pair of Odyssean Gloves last night and I happened to get VIT +10 WSD +5%, but only 8 atk (and 18 magic accuracy). That's got 2/3 perfect augs, missing the accuracy for a High TP Upheaval, so I'm wondering, with other gear, is it ok to ignore acc on this piece or do I need to try to get one with acc? This is literally the first time I've ever seen a max WSD aug that didn't have like 1 CHA only or something on it.

Also, for the other pieces that I need to aug, Head/Legs would you do Valorous or Odyssean for the aug?

Oh I absolutely hate when that happens cause you still need accuracy for Upheaval. Keep throwing stones at it, you'll eventually get something good. For Upheaval high TP I use Odyssean Legs / Head with +2 Sulvia's feet. Odyssean happens to naturally come with a lot of VIT so it fits very well with Upheaval, just annoying to get accuracy on it also. Cure Received and Fast Cast augments can go *** themselves.
 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2018-02-01 16:19:09  
Yeah, I was asking because Val Hose have a base STR/VIT advantage of +2/+3 and 1% more DA, but Odyssean has acc and STP.

Neither Val Mask nor Odyssean Helm have particularly DD oriented stats, but Odyssean Helm does have slightly better STR/VIT
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-02-01 18:25:10  
Currently I have two odyssean gloves I'm comparing.

VIT +14 Acc +12 Atk +27 WSD +4

Acc +6 Atk +6 WSD +7 (DM aug)
PET: VIT +14 Acc +24 (seriously WTF)

Ends up being 14 VIT vs 3 WSD and some Acc / Atk on a 85% VIT based WS.
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By Afania 2018-02-01 21:13:55  
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
I have some issues with the first video Afania. Both on the Chango and the Doji the guy just spammed 1 WS (Upheaval or Fudo) for light over and over again. I don't have chango yet, but with my doji I'm better off doing Kasha > Shoha > Fudo for Radiance or even better Shoha > Fudo > Kasha > Shoha > Fudo for Radiance. With the speed I get TP with Haste II + Cornelia I rarely miss making a 5-step unless I just completely miss the WS.

Same goes for the Chango. The video fails to capitalize on the best way to deal damage with that weapon. Abusing the ability to stack multipliers on multi step SCs. So, its a neat concept, but doesn't quite show potential on 2 of the four weapons there.

That's why I only said "it's fun to watch" but not a definitive answer nor conclusion of which one is better than another. Not only their playstyle is not optimal for certain weapon, also their hit builds are not equal.

That being said, getting the conclusion of Ukon being competitive when you just spam light ws over and over instead of multi step (possibly with another player with light WS) seems to make a lot of sense.
 Fenrir.Tarowyn
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By Fenrir.Tarowyn 2018-02-01 21:30:03  
The video was purposely done on a mob that takes reduced skillchain damage (you'll notice it only takes about 10% of the WS dmg from the SC) to try and simulate the raw damage of the weapon.

Multi stepping is great but is really best if you have a single DD. Maybe if you low man a lot, you might be in that situation, but most other times with at least 2/3 DD's it's just simpler to just spam.
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By Afania 2018-02-01 21:34:15  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Sylph.Atigevomega said: »
I never got emotional though, I simply stated the situations it can be stronger, which is outside of ms reso spam, which is rare but can happen, case and point it can happen on schah. I wasn't saying you were wrong for saying reso is better, simply for saying that every other rmea is useless. That's it, simply stating where there are uses. This way if someone wants to make they can and still now hey it's not the best, but it can still do ok, and better then your average. I take time to math out every set, to make sure ***is good, then field test and go over things again. This is how I get better and to the point I am. Of course, having the gear does bolster this as well.
I would like to see that math, please

Make a WAR sim, problem solved .___.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-02-01 21:44:19  
Afania said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Sylph.Atigevomega said: »
I never got emotional though, I simply stated the situations it can be stronger, which is outside of ms reso spam, which is rare but can happen, case and point it can happen on schah. I wasn't saying you were wrong for saying reso is better, simply for saying that every other rmea is useless. That's it, simply stating where there are uses. This way if someone wants to make they can and still now hey it's not the best, but it can still do ok, and better then your average. I take time to math out every set, to make sure ***is good, then field test and go over things again. This is how I get better and to the point I am. Of course, having the gear does bolster this as well.
I would like to see that math, please

Make a WAR sim, problem solved .___.
but monster hunter
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By Afania 2018-02-01 21:52:25  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
monster hunter

[+]
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-02-01 22:11:38  
Afania said: »
That being said, getting the conclusion of Ukon being competitive when you just spam light ws over and over instead of multi step (possibly with another player with light WS) seems to make a lot of sense.

You'd be having to use Ukko's which is very bleh for damage. Doing KJ -> Upheaval -> Upheaval on Chango would do much better cause it also does constant lights but at a much higher damage rating, bigger WS = bigger SC.

Ukko's is the central problem, it's the same problem Redemption and Rhong have. If SE was to fix Ukko's then Ukon would be viable, same with Gandiva and several others. Great AM effect, shitty WS it's attached to. Waste 3000TP to put up the AM3 effect, then either use a shitty WS with a STR mod, or use a much better WS with a VIT mod and waste the +50 STR attached to the weapon.
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By monkey33333333 2018-02-01 22:42:49  
so that STP from the Su3 GS rly out dps rag? sorry i still dont get it and new to WAR
 Sylph.Atigevomega
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By Sylph.Atigevomega 2018-02-02 06:07:21  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Sylph.Atigevomega said: »
I never got emotional though, I simply stated the situations it can be stronger, which is outside of ms reso spam, which is rare but can happen, case and point it can happen on schah. I wasn't saying you were wrong for saying reso is better, simply for saying that every other rmea is useless. That's it, simply stating where there are uses. This way if someone wants to make they can and still now hey it's not the best, but it can still do ok, and better then your average. I take time to math out every set, to make sure ***is good, then field test and go over things again. This is how I get better and to the point I am. Of course, having the gear does bolster this as well.
I would like to see that math, please

Sent in PM for now, if no blatant problems are seen Ill post it public.
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By EnubistheGalka 2018-02-02 10:49:39  
How does a DMG 24 STR 12 ACC 22 DA 3 Zulfiqar compare to the Raetic and Mon+1?
 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-02-02 11:27:26  
EnubistheGalka said: »
How does a DMG 24 STR 12 ACC 22 DA 3 Zulfiqar compare to the Raetic and Mon+1?

Falls behind Monte +1. I plugged weapons and sets into the spreadsheets and it took a PERFECT Augment Zulq to beat Monte+1.
Augments were 30 DMG 20 STR Acc/Atk 25 (Assuming you can even GET these from Taupe stones)

If you download the spreadsheet to check for yourself, don’t forget to change the pDIF values (listed as cCrit) otherwise your Values are gonna look SUPER low and wrong.

As for Raetic, I don’t actually know how to value that because of the variables involved
 Sylph.Atigevomega
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By Sylph.Atigevomega 2018-02-02 12:31:48  
If its the one Byrth put up, those should be adjusted already, also includes some other updates.
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By EnubistheGalka 2018-02-02 12:56:49  
Thanks. I'm having a hard time finding them. Can you link please?
 Sylph.Atigevomega
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By Sylph.Atigevomega 2018-02-02 14:46:49  
Search function is having trouble finding it its in this forum, lemme see if i can share it See if this works I uploaded mine. By mine i mean its all Byrth's work i just included some gear and such I am sure it could use work, but it gives a general idea for starting off.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19YIAvnHiitx2YSWa-jQ31GlRCgteuQgK/view?usp=sharing
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By EnubistheGalka 2018-02-02 14:55:54  
Sweets! Much appreciated.
 Bismarck.Norminator
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By Bismarck.Norminator 2018-02-03 09:18:19  
In your lua how do you manage to automaticly choose the good ws set according to your tp ?
Tried it and it doesn't seen to work for me.
 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-02-03 11:25:58  
Might have to search for pre made luas to see if you can find the rule. Saevel has one published does he not?

I haven’t yet made one myself but I think it would go something like..

If spelltype =.’Weaponskill’, and spell = “Upheaval” ,
EventArgs TP > 1999 then equipset sets.ws.upthetp,
Else equipset sets.ws.upthehellno,
End

I feel like I probably butchered that but like I said, I’m sure someone has a premade lua published somewhere that you can copy > paste what you need from
 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2018-02-03 12:46:31  
Its a bit more complicated than that on war.

Have to account for whether you have Warcry up or down, whether you have savagery merits and how many and whether you are using Relic bonus to savagery. Have to account for TP bonus on Weapon (if Chango). Have to account for whether you're in a situation where you want Moonshade Earring or not. Finally, not talked about much but you have to account for Crystal Blessing too.
 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-02-03 14:03:33  
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Its a bit more complicated than that on war.

Have to account for whether you have Warcry up or down, whether you have savagery merits and how many and whether you are using Relic bonus to savagery. Have to account for TP bonus on Weapon (if Chango). Have to account for whether you're in a situation where you want Moonshade Earring or not. Finally, not talked about much but you have to account for Crystal Blessing too.

Contain your mamories :P We all know about all the intimacies (or at least I hope we do) was just giving a rough (extremely rough) code example for a tp rule in lua.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-02-03 16:33:33  
It's just a serious of buff.active checks that add up values and then does a final check before putting on the WS gear.
 Asura.Byrne
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By Asura.Byrne 2018-02-03 22:28:29  
Bismarck.Norminator said: »
In your lua how do you manage to automaticly choose the good ws set according to your tp ?
Tried it and it doesn't seen to work for me.

I'll freely admit offhand, I know nothing about WAR, but in general there is rarely a reason to hold on to your TP outside of building for aftermath (maybe niche duo situations where you are stacking for SC etc).

The lua arguments for how to do it, as Saevel said, are very simple, but you may want to consider why you are doing it, and if you even need to be.

Feel free to correct that if that doesn't really apply to WAR, not trying to mislead anyone.

Edit* I have some of these arguments in my lua, but in my case I have them there just to capitalize on optimal gear at that TP just in case I done goofed.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-02-04 07:23:16  
Asura.Byrne said: »
The lua arguments for how to do it, as Saevel said, are very simple, but you may want to consider why you are doing it, and if you even need to be.

Feel free to correct that if that doesn't really apply to WAR, not trying to mislead anyone.


It has to do with Chango, Warcry, Upheaval, King's Justice and WAR's tendency to over TP frequently. Both of those WS's change their gear from MA to WSD around the 2K TP mark. Chango and Moonshade add +750 so at 1000TP the WAR is really at 1750, all it takes is a single MA on the last round and your at 1200+ and now into the 2K territory. Lastly Warcry adds +700 TP bonus which easily puts you way past the 2K mark. Nobody should be "holding TP".
 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2018-02-05 08:48:24  
Valefor.Yandaime said: »
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
Its a bit more complicated than that on war.

Have to account for whether you have Warcry up or down, whether you have savagery merits and how many and whether you are using Relic bonus to savagery. Have to account for TP bonus on Weapon (if Chango). Have to account for whether you're in a situation where you want Moonshade Earring or not. Finally, not talked about much but you have to account for Crystal Blessing too.

Contain your mamories :P We all know about all the intimacies (or at least I hope we do) was just giving a rough (extremely rough) code example for a tp rule in lua.

I did not mean to come across as overly critical of you. I felt like the OP wasn't aware of the intricacies, and was only trying to provide more info if he was trying to program it in lua himself.
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-02-05 12:28:22  
Quick Reso set question: assuming I don't have or plan to get HQ abjuration pieces (WAR isn't my main focus and it's the only job on the Argosy set that I play, and availability on my server is poor anyway - i.e. last AH Voodoo Mufflers sold in October), what hands are next best?

I'm using Sulevia +2 now, and comparing to NQ Argosy I'm thinking that despite the lower STR, the additional DA and Acc (and even Atk as a lesser consideration, if for some reason I'm not capped) make Sulevia+2 the better choice. Am I off base here? Overlooking any other options?

Obviously set bonus with Argosy +1 body/hands changes things, in addition to the higher stats on the individual HQ pieces - but like I said, that's not really a priority for me.

My normal set below:
ItemSet 356548
* Valorous Mail augments: STR+10 Acc+29 Atk+17 DA+4
* I don't have Regal Ring
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