The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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 Carbuncle.Lunatone
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2017-12-26 18:49:15  
I'm using mummu right now just because of all the DEX, been trying to solo Neak but I havent quite gotten there yet, havent really thought about the ammo slot swap yet honestly lol.
But in terms of body I didnt know what would be better so I just figured all dat dex was the best I could do until I can get Neak down
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By Boshi 2017-12-27 13:27:11  
Alright Luna I plugged some of your stuff into my spreadsheet here's some advice for upgrade paths:

ammo: jut. feather,

ears: You should put in a rule for the lugra/lugra+1 combo when possible. Eventually if you get double +1 maches the 2nd one will replace ishvara (at +1 only)

body: Adhemar nq b and a are both upgrades vs Mummu, You actually need a -very- good auged dex/wsd body to beat adhemar.

hands: Adhemar nq/hq B both an upgrade. I'm assuming you have hq here. This is like body you need to roll a reeeeally good aug to beat adhemar, this means both high dex -and- wsd not including adhemar's heavy attack.
(dex7+ wsd5, dex12+ wsd4, dex14+ wsd3 seem to be around the sweet spot)

rings:
-if- using a mummu+2 piece the ring is is actually usable vs these 2.
otherwise: Epona's is an upgrade. Besides +1ing Ramuhs just wait out till illabrat/regal. (actually epona still gives good numbers vs illabrat)

legs: only upgrade is byakko legs

feet: These actually hold up well, only feet that would compete are ken. at which point you're better off just auging a specific pair of herc for dex/wsd

(waist: windbuffet actually gives better numbers on spreadsheet but I don't think it's worth doing, I'm kinda surprised caro/grunfeld doesn't give better numbers)
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 Lakshmi.Lenus
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By Lakshmi.Lenus 2017-12-27 16:39:54  
Boshi for what you asked earlier about nuking, I've always chosen INT over MDMG because INT offers both Macc and damage so it was always a clear choice for me.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-12-27 18:47:12  
INT for NIN nuking offers macc for sure (at an unknown conversion rate though) but does it really offer damage?
The tests from the other twin thread about NIN nuking was suggesting kinda different data, but no conclusion has ever been reached afaik.
I think Boshi was talking about that old discussion which never got concluded in the end?

I'd love to know the results myself, if I missed the continuation of that discussion I'd be very grateful if someone could link it to me!


Edit:
I was talking about this thread
There were several other posts outside of that thread (and into the current one?)
Regardless I don't think Bahadir ever finished his research and the role of INT for Ninjutsu was confusing from early tests. Whatever it added to Ninjutsu (Macc? Damage? Both?) it seemed to follow a different contribution-formula compared to other magic in game.
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By Boshi 2017-12-28 09:23:23  
I did some testing on the war mobs outside port windy.

Matt>Int > nin skill > mdmg seemed to be the case 1:1:1
(Tested int vs mdmg by 5int ring vs 5mdmg serket)
(Tested skill 1:1 with incanter vs sanctity)
(Tested int vs matt lugra vs novio)
(Tested ring and ears both nothing vs int to confirm int contributed)

Shiva+1 nad dinger were extremely close (1 dng difference in my gear)

Relic hat is always worth wearing for san spells
Empy hands were beat by leyline unless I had futae active


Edit: note:
-Ghastly Tathlum +1 won for ammo slot no matter how I changed my gear.
-the carby mdmg neck did poorly
-I dont have the AATT earring yet.

Gear otherwise (note my nin only ~700jp)was
heishi/nonmagic offhand
Baetyl other than neck test
Friomisi
Gyve body
Shiva+1
Eschan stone
Gyve legs (i have like an int6 matt35 macc20 herc legs but I was trying to just do max matt for testing- gyce provided +5matt -1 int for more dmg on these)
Matt32 herc feet
 Carbuncle.Lunatone
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2017-12-28 11:30:36  
Weapon wise Boshi I'm using Vagary katana normally, acc mode I toggle shigi, now I've got a Kanaria with DEX14 att12 acc 16 WSD 1%.
Will that beat Achiuchu with/without sam roll up?
I assume it will lose to achiu unless sam roll?
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By Boshi 2017-12-29 14:22:14  
Just a note: Gavialis head is still great for blade:Shun when usable.
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By clearlyamule 2017-12-29 14:45:36  
Asura.Sechs said: »
INT for NIN nuking offers macc for sure (at an unknown conversion rate though) but does it really offer damage?
The tests from the other twin thread about NIN nuking was suggesting kinda different data, but no conclusion has ever been reached afaik.
I think Boshi was talking about that old discussion which never got concluded in the end?

I'd love to know the results myself, if I missed the continuation of that discussion I'd be very grateful if someone could link it to me!


Edit:
I was talking about this thread
There were several other posts outside of that thread (and into the current one?)
Regardless I don't think Bahadir ever finished his research and the role of INT for Ninjutsu was confusing from early tests. Whatever it added to Ninjutsu (Macc? Damage? Both?) it seemed to follow a different contribution-formula compared to other magic in game.
Unless it changed it was tested a looooooooooooooong time ago on alla and formulas/stats are over on bgwiki
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-01-08 02:51:26  
How do you guys use your Hachiya Hatsuburi +3? Which WSs?
How did you deal with its lack of accuracy? Do you keep using it in your WS-acc sets and try to compensate for the lack of accuracy in the other slots, or do you replace it with something else?
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By Bahadir 2018-01-08 04:35:41  
clearlyamule said: »
Asura.Sechs said: »
INT for NIN nuking offers macc for sure (at an unknown conversion rate though) but does it really offer damage?
The tests from the other twin thread about NIN nuking was suggesting kinda different data, but no conclusion has ever been reached afaik.
I think Boshi was talking about that old discussion which never got concluded in the end?

I'd love to know the results myself, if I missed the continuation of that discussion I'd be very grateful if someone could link it to me!


Edit:
I was talking about this thread
There were several other posts outside of that thread (and into the current one?)
Regardless I don't think Bahadir ever finished his research and the role of INT for Ninjutsu was confusing from early tests. Whatever it added to Ninjutsu (Macc? Damage? Both?) it seemed to follow a different contribution-formula compared to other magic in game.
Unless it changed it was tested a looooooooooooooong time ago on alla and formulas/stats are over on bgwiki


Sorry response is a bit late. What I did not finish about my Int in Ninjutsu research was: how does it affect MAcc.
It does definitely affect dmg as stated in the already linked thread. The point is that you get diminishing returns for Ni and Ichi spells. After a certain dInt value the M-value (base dmg has a term dInt x M) is set to 0 for Ichi and 0.5 for Ni spells. So adding more Int for Ni or Ichi spells doesnt add a lot of dmg (in case of Ichi actually no dmg at all). Arguably, the 1.5 M value for San spells doesnt add an aweful lot either. But its at least consistent through out all dInt ranges I tested and I tested a wide range, meaning that I couldnt find another tier with decent Int gear vs lvl 1 mobs.

All the data is provided in the link (actually posted stats and dmg values). Only thing is that some1 suggested I mixed up the dInt tier values for Ichi spells I think, i.e. when does the M value change to 0. Might ve been food active at the time of testing or something like that. As Im not playing XI anymore I couldnt retest this though.
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-01-08 10:17:41  
Asura.Sechs said: »
How do you guys use your Hachiya Hatsuburi +3? Which WSs?
How did you deal with its lack of accuracy? Do you keep using it in your WS-acc sets and try to compensate for the lack of accuracy in the other slots, or do you replace it with something else?

All of the major single hit WS: Hi, Ten, Metsu.

I don't really feel I have too much issue losing out on acc from that slot and needing to specifically load up more on acc in other gear slots, mainly due to the first hit WS accuracy bonus. When accounting for the additional ~100 acc on first/mainhand hit, my Ten/Metsu WS sets actually have more acc (first hit) than my mid-acc TP set, and just slightly below my high acc TP set (my Hi set is a little worse than Ten/Metsu because AGI mod...). True, that doesn't help offhand procs, but I kinda just accept that occasional acc loss on the "bonus" attack in exchange for the WSD+10% on every single first hit.

In most situations I find myself in on NIN, any time acc is a major concern we're usually handling that via BRD/GEO buffs anyway, and/or I'm offhanding a Shigi. In any case, that ends up meaning I'm still in the same situation of having sufficient single-hit WS acc as long as my TP acc is OK.

I personally don't really use NIN a ton in cases where I really need loads of extra acc from buffs/offhand though (like, requiring max acc sets for sufficient TP accuracy), so YMMV depending on what exactly you're fighting and your level of buffs and maybe you think somewhat differently about headpiece for a high acc WS set if you're using NIN a lot with heavy acc requirements. My instinct is to say that in that kind of case, it's still probably better to make up acc elsewhere and make swapping out that WSD+10% probably my very last acc swap on Hi/Ten/Metsu.
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By SmoothC 2018-01-09 11:23:43  
Would like some input on TP gearsets. I think the front page guides are fairly accurate but over 6 months old right now. I mainly use NIN for soloing things with trusts so I usually have max magic haste. Please let me know where I can improve short of huge $$$ items.

ItemSet 355998

Kanaria #1: DMG +17, STR +12, ACC +13, ATK +19, WSD 2%
Kanaria #2: DMG +10, DEX +13, ACC +19, ATK +8, SBlow 3
TAM: Max- Dex 10 Quad 3 ACC 15
Herc Body: STR 12, ACC/ATK 15, Triple +3
Herc Gloves: ACC 15, ATK 9, Triple +3
Herc Feet: Dex 9, Triple +4
Sam Tights: Str/Dex +9, Triple/Double +2
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-01-10 18:00:19  
SmoothC said: »
Would like some input on TP gearsets. I think the front page guides are fairly accurate but over 6 months old right now. I mainly use NIN for soloing things with trusts so I usually have max magic haste. Please let me know where I can improve short of huge $$$ items.

ItemSet 355998

None of your stuff is bad, really just a bunch of minor tweaks.

Weapons: Those two are pretty good Kanaria, but keep tossing stones at Oseem in hopes of improving. Mainhand with DMG+17~20, attribute (DEX>STR>AGI), whatever Acc/Atk you can manage, and TA+3%+. Offhand priorities: DEX/TA (though as much DMG and Acc/Atk as you can get is obviously ideal too).

FWIW, I use an offhand Kanaria with WSD+7% that generally beats my TA offhand Kanaria, but that's less considerably less useful for non RMEA users since you're likely gonna get best damage out of Shun spam for any non-RMEA mainhand (thus reducing the usefulness of WSD) RMEA WSD works due to the more frequent use of single hit WS - Kikoku gets Metsu, Kannagi makes Hi worthwhile, and Aeonic improves Ten spam.

Head: Adhemar Bonnet for lower acc requirements. Kendatsuba for high acc (compared to Dampening Tam, ranges from about sidegrade with low acc requirements, to Kendatsuba pulling away as you need more Acc). I also don't ever discount the Meva on Kendatsuba gear (particularly head/body/legs) when fighting mobs with dangerous AoE magical attacks - which tends to pop up a lot on mobs hard enough to require a high acc set.

Ears: Short of adding Telos, Cessance/Brutal or Cessance/Dedition (lower acc needs) are a minor improvement.

Body: Kendatsuba will beat that Herc (or even a Herc with TA+4% and otherwise same stats), though it's not a massive difference. And of course, if you're ever not at capped delay, Adhemar Jacket is hard to beat.

Hands: Adhemar. Generally need reallllly good Herc augs (TA+4%, DEX) to beat them.

Back: IDK your augs, but DEX+30/Acc&Atk+20/DA+10 will be best. Sometimes I see people using STP or Crit from Sap slot - in addition to not beating DA for TP (or even in ideal circumstances for STP, reaching sidegrade territory), DEX/DA is gonna be your best Shun WS cape.

Waist: Probably obvious, but Windbuffet+1 is an improvement. YMMV though, if you don't really use other Windbuffet jobs and are mostly using NIN for low impact stuff with trusts, might not be worth the money to you.

Legs: Those Samnuha should win for low acc requirements. Keep in mind that Kendatsuba NQ beats even perfect Samnuha when acc matters.
 Carbuncle.Lunatone
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-01-12 17:58:01  
Achiu(vagary katana) still the better offhand?
Any possible augs to make Kanaria keep up/beat?
Had a DEX14 ACC16 WSD1% kanaria but I just gave it up for a TH2 so now I have to re aug a blank one.
Current set:
ItemSet 356085
Herc feet are TA3 ACC40 att 37 AGI 4
Samnuha max
If I wasnt lazy id go get cessance but thats later.
This is also the capped haste 0gear DW set
 Quetzalcoatl.Langly
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2018-01-13 00:55:33  
The better offhand is going to depend on your target and buffs/debuffs.

I personally find Ochu my best offhand for most of the scenario's I use NIN with. I can manufacture realistic scenarios that put taka/achiuchikapu/ochu/kanaria all in the king's chair.
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 Asura.Sagaxi
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By Asura.Sagaxi 2018-01-13 08:32:36  
Does anyone would have a Inin +crit set on hand? I am not really asking for the viability of such a set, just trying to see what it would look like.

Here is what I wip off RQ, looking for improvments, aside obv. HQs and ambucade back.
Code
sets.engaged.Crit = {
		main="Heishi Shorinken",
		sub="Taka",
		ammo="Yetshila",
		head="Ken. Jinpachi",
		body="Ken. Samue",
		hands="Mummu Wrists +2",
		legs="Ken. Hakama",
		feet="Mummu Gamash. +2",
		neck="Moonbeam Nodowa",
		waist="Windbuffet Belt +1",
		left_ear="Telos Earring",
		right_ear="Dedition Earring",
		left_ring="Epona's Ring",
		right_ring="Mummu Ring",
		back={ name="Andartia's Mantle", augments={'DEX+20','Accuracy+10 Attack+10','"Dbl.Atk."+10',}},
}



Thanks in advance!
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2018-01-13 09:16:58  
That looks a lot like what me and my nin friends have used for this months ambuscade.

It's worked very well for us. ~75+ crit rate on 2 NIN's with ramuh's favor and bard buffs.

I stuck with Happo Shuriken instead of Yetshila. I'd rather gain the 54% chance for another attack, not to mention sange.
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 Asura.Sagaxi
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By Asura.Sagaxi 2018-01-13 09:22:11  
TYvm Langly!

Just have to incoporate an innin set rule, and modify haste levels as you posted in GS thread.
 Carbuncle.Lunatone
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-01-13 20:39:22  
I know I'm spamming the thread alot but last question,
How would Kobo Kote do for Hi? I figure they may beat NQ ryuo hands but how do they stack up to HQ if anyones tested
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-01-14 21:25:12  
Carbuncle.Lunatone said: »
I know I'm spamming the thread alot but last question,
How would Kobo Kote do for Hi? I figure they may beat NQ ryuo hands but how do they stack up to HQ if anyones tested

Your sense is right - Kobo are quite good for Hi. At least situationally, they even beat HQ Ryou and AGI+10/WSD+5 Herculean Gloves.

IIRC, HQ Ryuo win sometimes, and there's always the chance of amazing DM augments on Herc, but aside from those I'd go Kobo for Hi.
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-01-15 01:07:47  
Last time I tested Kobo Kote on the spreadsheet -which is a long time ago- they were winning over Ryuo NQ and were very very close (better/worse according to contest) to HQ Ryuo.
Keep in mind Kobo Kote have no accuracy at all though, that might be something to take into consideration.

A high WSD augment on Herculean (with DM augments) might be the winner here though.
Not sure how much WSD you would need to pass the threshold where they become better than Kobo Kote and HQ Ryuo


edit:
I forgot Mummu Wrists +2 exist now.
They might be very good for Blade: Hi. Especially if you're in a set where you can benefit from the set bonus (+15 AGI/DEX! +8 AGI/DEX!)
Not sure how better/worse than the other options I mentioned, but I'm confident they would prove to be quite a valid item.
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By DaneBlood 2018-01-15 08:45:44  
quick questions from a returning players

1: The new be all DPS ws is blade metsu? its was blade hi when i left (trying to figure out if i want to unlock blade hi).

2: What are the optimal katana to get main hand and offhand?
aenic/emp?

3: any quick to get katana's to get my NIN just a bit tidied up for events ? currently I am using Skirmish and bayld/sparks katana
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By Boshi 2018-01-15 09:55:29  
1:
blade Shun or blade Ten, the big thing about Shun is you need aeonic to make it self sc.
Blade Hi is pretty weak.

2.
Aeonic is generally the best mainhand.
**Kikoku is a very strong option and if you can argue for times it wins out based on metsu's SC properties.
offhand:
Achiuchikapu, perfect Ochu, or a good auged Reis. Depending on mobs buffs they can all be BIS.
Taka is BIS offhand if you're using blade Hi (where empy would be bis mainhand)

3.
-Ochu from SR are your best bet easy and strong ones, the content isn't very challenging. Also there's a lot of other rewards from it that are good for nin (samnuha body/legs, dampening tam, leyline gloves, Amm greaves, floral gauntlets)
-Vagary campaign is on atm, if you can tag along with a group doing Vagary I'm sure everyone is just passing/letting achiu floor.



edit: yea Sechs I mixed up the names
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-01-15 10:08:52  
I'm sure Boshi meant Kikoku in place of Kannagi?

Another offhand I would add is Shigi. When augmented it offers an incredible amount of acc, allowing you for more swaps in your other slots or different food and stuff like that :)
When non acc-capped Shigi proved to be BiS offhand in pretty much all situations.
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By DaneBlood 2018-01-15 10:35:38  
Boshi said: »
3.
-Ochu from SR are your best bet easy and strong ones, the content isn't very challenging.

This is my problem her is i am still way behind on missions so i guess I would look into vagary as it does not seems to have Aodulin missions or RoV missions requirements
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-01-16 01:35:00  
Asura.Sechs said: »
I forgot Mummu Wrists +2 exist now.
They might be very good for Blade: Hi. Especially if you're in a set where you can benefit from the set bonus (+15 AGI/DEX!)
Not sure how better/worse than the other options I mentioned, but I'm confident they would prove to be quite a valid item.

You know what, I did the exact same thing - wasn't thinking about Mummu+2 at all. Taking a closer look at them now, I get them as basically a sidegrade to Kobo Kote when acc isn't too important, and better than Kobo when you need acc. Mummu+2 it is!

Kobo are certainly still quite good for Hi though. And re: no accuracy, don't forget they at least have a lot more DEX than most alternatives to help address that flaw.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-01-16 04:32:01  
Got the set bonus wrong, it's actually "only" +8 to AGI/DEX.
Wonder if this makes the Mummu Ring a valid option over uh... what are the tipical options these days for Hi? Regal ring? Begruding Ring? Ilabrat Ring?

Atm I'm using Regal and Ilabrat, wonder if Mummu would be better than Ilabrat. Probably so. -2 DEX/AGI but Crit+3% (and acc+6).
Well you also lose the 25 attack buuuut that's less relevant for Blade: Hi than it is for other WSs I guess.


Regardless, Blade: Hi shouldn't be used unless you need it for SC purposes or unless you're a Kannagi user! :P
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By Boshi 2018-01-16 06:17:31  
for blade Hi it would be something like
Ryuo Hands / Regal Ring / Begrudging Ring in those slots.

If you wanna take advantage of Mummu Hands, the better slots to use Mummu+2 Armor are legs & feet. Feet more so than legs.
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-01-16 07:02:21  
Ahem... Mummu+2 are better than Ryuo NQ! Even without the set bonus.
So are Kobo Kote, and not even considering DM Herculean Hands because with lucky augments they could prove very good as well.

HQ Ryuo is a different story, but when I last tested it was very close to Kobo Kote, in a few situations it was actually slightly behind.
Mummu +2 I personally didn't test because they didn't exist back then, but Capuchin said he just did!

Back then when I did the tests it was totally not worth it to get HQ Ryuo if their only purpose was Blade: Hi.
But given nowadays price (like 1/10 of the cost back then) and supposing additional use then sure, Ryuo HQ are likely a very nice option, not denyin that.


Also concerning the ring thing specifically, it might be situational to my gear and not something absolute, but when I ran some tests recently it turns out that the new combination of Rancor Collar//RegalRing//IlabratRing provides higher damage than the combination I was using before (something//RegalRing//BegrudgingRing, not sure what I was using in the neck, Fotia probably because I'm cheap).



Anyway, all this deep discussion is partially moot, Blade: Hi shouldn't be the paradygm of NIN WSs but more like something you use in specific situations (Kannagi AM, SC reasons, stuff like that I guess).
Shun, Ten and Metsu are simply better, period. Granted that neither of those shine particularly either, but still better than Hi.
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