The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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 Odin.Slore
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By Odin.Slore 2018-01-16 10:44:58  
What is the max number of shadows one can get? Can you get the extra 1 from the back AND the +1 from hottori feet?
 Odin.Rikiyame
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By Odin.Rikiyame 2018-01-16 11:23:27  
Pretty sure it's 7.
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By Boshi 2018-01-16 11:54:45  
ItemSet 356165
This is what I get for bis blade:hi on the spread sheet at least.

Technically I get agi15/wsd4 herc winning on foot slot only and only by a very small bit.

Any combo with Rancor neck is a decent sized drop in dmg vs using begrudging. This is -not- counting the 1% tp save rate.

Windbuffet+1 and fotia come very close, fotia wins if the 1% tp save is accounted for -usually- (spreadsheet doesn't normally account for this)

Hands: I get
Ryuo hq D > Ryuo hq A > Mummu+2 w/ set > Kobo > herc agi15/wsd4 > Ryuo nq D > Mummu+2 no set > Ryuo nq A > Mummu+1 > Adhemar+1A > Ken+1 > Adhemar+1B > Ken nq
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-01-16 12:56:15  
I was getting Rancor neck/Ilabrat ring/Regal ring doing better than the above, but then again I lack a lot of those HQ gear so that might be the cause of it?
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By Lilmartio 2018-01-16 13:32:57  
@Boshi I would check Begrudging Ring because when I downloaded the spreadsheet some time ago, the ring had Crit Damage +5% when it should be Crit Rate +5%.

I'm also getting different numbers from the set listed. My numbers are higher with Mummu+2, Epona/Regal, and Brutal/Ishvara.
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By Boshi 2018-01-16 15:27:52  
@Lilmartio
-yea you're right I had it at critD5 and didn't notice.

- messed around with the rest I get Epona coming up high sometimes depending on gear, messing around regal/mummu seem to be best combo

-Surprisingly yea I get brutal killing moonshade even at 1k tp. like a ~200dmg difference

-Rancor neck losing to fotia neck without accounting for tp save

----
so for fotia I added 2 more boxes under WS dmg this is assuming your "Ws dmg" result boxes are B47 & Z47
fotia x1: B47*1.01
fotia x2: B47*1.02

another change I made:
changed fotias from 100 fp to 97.65625 to be more accurate (25/256)
-Similarity made Gavialis 117.1875

-oh Also I dunno if this is still on it but check the value on the base dex on herc head. It used to be 10 over what it really is
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-01-16 15:54:45  
moon shade in general isn’t as valuable on crit weapon skills anymore, not since abysses and void watch days where you had other ways to boost critical damage.
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-01-16 18:11:44  
Boshi said: »
ItemSet 356165
This is what I get for bis blade:hi on the spread sheet at least.

While this is a pretty good set, I do take some issue with some things:

Standard disclaimer that to some extent, spreadsheets always depend on target/buffs (I typically don't assume super-mega buffs that are often spreadsheet defaults - like full COR/BRD/GEO/Bolster/Dia IV, since in reality-land I never actually see that when I'm on NIN) and total combinations of gear. So it's conceivable that in your buff/target scenario, things might be different. However...

(1) Hands: I find it pretty unlikely that Ryuo+1 hands beat Mummu+2 in the vast majority of realistic situations. Are you sure you accounted for additional Mummu+2 AGI/DEX set bonus? If you forgot that, I could see more situations where they're sidegrades or Ryuo+1 is ahead by a fairly small amount. When adding in the AGI/DEX, I'm almost always seeing a Mummu+2 win.

I find Kobo and Ryuo+1 (D) basically sidegrades in most situations, though cherry picking a perfect situation for one or the other can get either one coming out ahead. Ryuo NQ and non-DM Herculean Gloves are also respectable options, but given the ease of acquisition of Mummu+2 those prob aren't worth recommending.

(2) Earring: As mentioned by others above, Brutal > Moonshade

(3) Ring: Like Sechs, I get Ilabrat or Regal winning at least in many situations, even accounting for DEX/AGI set bonus).

(4) Legs/feet: A good Herculean with AGI+??/WSD+5 can certainly beat Mummu+2 pieces, depending on Acc needs/buffs/etc. Though, this really gets into specifics of your exact additional augments, situation/buffs, and total Mummu+2 set bonuses. If anything, Mummu+2 provide a very nice option that's certainly solid even when not the top choice, and doesn't require Oseem headaches.

Quote:
Windbuffet+1 and fotia come very close, fotia wins if the 1% tp save is accounted for -usually- (spreadsheet doesn't normally account for this)

It's also worth considering that Fotia is far more consistent, whereas Windbuffet will get higher spikes when the TA/QA proc. When it's pretty close across a wide variety of scenarios, I tend to err on the side of consistency even when the choice with a more random factor (multiattack/crit/etc.) gets a modestly higher spreadsheet number. In practice, I'd rather have a better sense for what my expected WS damage will be as opposed to a lot of lower damage WS and an occasional spectacular one.

Asura.Sechs said: »
Anyway, all this deep discussion is partially moot, Blade: Hi shouldn't be the paradygm of NIN WSs but more like something you use in specific situations (Kannagi AM, SC reasons, stuff like that I guess).
Shun, Ten and Metsu are simply better, period. Granted that neither of those shine particularly either, but still better than Hi.

This is pretty much the real answer to any questions about Hi :)

That being said... I think I'm gonna take my Kannagi from 90 to afterglow this year just for fun (so at the very least I care about using Hi for AM3). When you can take advantage of Empy AM3, it can be really good. Often it does lose to Heishi or Kikoku though.

If not using Kannagi, Ten usually works fine in place of Hi for SC purposes (even though Ten's performance tends to be more dependent on buffs). For Kikoku users, Metsu is almost always a superior Hi replacement for SCs, unless you have some compelling reason to want to use a crit WS like breaking some sort of shield/aura (like perhaps this month's intense Ambuscade).
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-01-16 18:49:57  
NIN will probably be my first dual wield job sim, I think I have a way to handle offhand and main hand separation, which was really the only thing giving me an issue for NIN. I think I have a way to deal with Innin decay rate as well. I don't have master on NIN, so if I do NIN it'll be without assuming master since it'll be the only way to confirm stats and everything in-game myself, though. And eventually I'd have options for like 0, 100, 500, 1200, and master, since those are the "big tiers" for most jobs. I just have a lot to finish still on my RUN and then bring the other two I have public up to par as well.
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 Carbuncle.Lunatone
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-01-16 19:40:52  
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Using less Mummu +2 would Hiz.+2 work in leg slot?
Herc feet are acc/att5 CHR6 WSD 7
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-01-17 02:46:37  
Boshi I re-run the Spreadsheet just out of curiosity since I hadn't udpated my own Hi set (and other WS sets) in quite a while, here are my results. I considered capped acc in all sets because I wanted to exclude that variable for the sake of this test. I used the level 140 target. MidBuffs is just Fury/Frailty

Boshi super HQ set
No_Buffs: 04382 (4353)
MidBuffs: 09869 (9871)
CappedAt: 14139 (14178)
The values within brackets are with Kobo Kote

Same set with Mummu+2 hands (set bonus)
No_Buffs: 04417
MidBuffs: 09959
CappedAt: 14233
as it stands, Mummu+2 get incredibly close even without taking into account the set bonus. When you do they get above Ryuo +1 (D).

Boshi super HQ set (different rings) Ilabrat and

I also tested RancorNeck/Regal/Ilabrat in Boshi's set. Two variations, first number is with Ilabrat, brackets number is with Mummu Ring (set bonus). As expected Ilabrat loses when att is capped, I cannot explain why Ilabrat loses at No_Buffs but wins at MidBuffs...
No_BuffS: 04419 (04460)
MidBuffs: 10180 (10103)
CappedAt: 14143 (14258)
The only noticeable difference is in the MidBuffs range anyway, the rest are pretty negligible differences if you ask me.


Using Boshi set I also tested alternatives for Moonshade. Respectively Brutal (Telos) [Cessance]
No_Buffs: 04389 (04371) [04370]
MidBuffs: 09926 (09913) [09881]
CappedAt: 14240 (14112) [14176]


So basically my points from this are the following:
1) Ryuo HQ hands is surely a very nice option, not sure if we can consider it the best (especially when Kobo Kote and Mummu+2 are free)
2) Mummu+2 set is particularly well performing for Blade: Hi. Mummu+2 body also comes very close to the HQ Kendatsuba, which is an awesome piece of gear but quite expensive too.


Anyway, I did this mostly for fun, don't really think Blade: Hi is worth all this attention, it's no longer the landmark WS for NIN and hasn't been for quite a while.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-01-17 03:01:05  
Carbuncle.Lunatone said: »
ItemSet 356171
Using less Mummu +2 would Hiz.+2 work in leg slot?
Herc feet are acc/att5 CHR6 WSD 7
I seem to recall even Mummu +1 were beating Hizamaru+2 for Blade: Hi, and I was quite annoyed by that >____>
Goes without saying that if Mummu+1 beats Hiza+2 then of course Mummu+2 will perform even better.


Edit:
Yes just retested. Difference between Mummu+1 and Hiza+2 is really really small but favors the former. The gap of course only increases with Mummu +2 and with the Set bonus.
Also Mummu +1 body is more or less equal to NQ Kendatsuba body. +2 is quite better (as I said before it's really really close to HQ Kendatsuba actually)

Concerning your Herc feet I get them above Mummu+1 but below Mummu+2 (only did some quick tests though, you might want to do mroe yourself!)
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-01-17 03:03:54  
Asura.Sechs said: »
Anyway, I did this mostly for fun, don't really think Blade: Hi is worth all this attention, it's no longer the landmark WS for NIN and hasn't been for quite a while.

You're all jerks, because all this Blade: Hi talk is super making me want to work on finishing up AG Kannagi now. THANKS GUYS... /sigh :)
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 Carbuncle.Lunatone
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-01-17 11:59:49  
Sometimes I swap around between Hi and Metsu but I assume if my Hi set was a little better it would probably almost what metsu does.
High end for both /war just fury/frailty NQgeo is ~14k and ~18k.
Normally I try to only use it for double darkness sc when i'm messing around.
And i feel the same Capu! Making me want to finish kannagi instead of doing maxdpsNagi
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 Carbuncle.Lunatone
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-01-17 19:55:07  
More spam.

Do we know where Mochizuki Feet +3 sit for us?
Macc36 skill 23 for enfeebles.
I thought maybe for low buff blade Hi because all the att/acc?
 Asura.Cicion
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By Asura.Cicion 2018-01-17 22:03:56  
Hachiya kyahan +3 52 macc,20int vs 0 int and 15macc set bonus with af+3 head for enfeebles and is your best burst feet. If they were the 10% weaponskill damage piece they be must have but just seem like hot garbage to me. Best in slot for enmity mabey?
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-01-18 01:07:47  
Carbuncle.Lunatone said: »
Sometimes I swap around between Hi and Metsu but I assume if my Hi set was a little better it would probably almost what metsu does.
High end for both /war just fury/frailty NQgeo is ~14k and ~18k.
Normally I try to only use it for double darkness sc when i'm messing around.

I do the same thing on Kikoku, sometimes just messing around with Hi for kicks and approaching my Metsu damage, and I think if I really maxed out my Hi gear it could compete OK...

But if I'm just tossing out a WS, Metsu tends to be my choice anyway just because it has such great SC properties. Even just random spam with other DDs tends to lead to so many Darkness OR Light SCs, and when you're doing more controlled or solo SCs, it's nice to just do a Metsu-Metsu Darkness or Metsu-Shun Light (or Ten > Metsu > Shun).

Carbuncle.Lunatone said: »
Do we know where Mochizuki Feet +3 sit for us?

Agreed with Cicion, very expensive but pretty useless considering other better and FAR cheaper pieces exist for all practical uses.

1) Ninjutsu: Even having Hachiya+2 makes Mochi kinda useless for all things ninjutsu.

* For enfeebles, you want to use AF +2/+3 head anyway so you're getting set bonus from head & feet that make even AF+2 about a sidegrade from Macc perspective, and AF+3 clearly the winner.
* For nukes, Hachiya+2/+3 are BiS with Burst damage+10 and INT+20.
* You're probably carrying AF anyway for the nighttime movement speed.
* Oh, and Relic feet are still massively more expensive.

2) Blade Hi: Mochi+3 do have a lot of AGI/Acc/Atk, and they aren't BAD for Hi (particularly when way under acc/atk cap)... but they aren't best in slot gear either. Even in their best case scenario, I still get Mummu+2 edging them out on spreadsheet (when way under acc/atk cap, to the point where relic feet are benefiting from every point of acc/atk).

3) Enmity: Yeah, I suppose Relic +2/+3 are probably BiS enmity gear (Enm +7/+8, HP+23/33). However, it's a very minor advantage over Ahoshi or Rager+1, both of which have Enm+7 and a little less HP. Can't imagine anyone spending the money for that reason.

Only way I could see Mochi+3 being worth making is if there is some sort of killer set bonus added once the whole set is out. Otherwise, only point is for completion's sake for the very rich or wasteful.

Carbuncle.Lunatone said: »
Making me want to finish kannagi instead of doing maxdpsNagi

Speaking of potentially not the most efficient uses of gil...
Added some HMP to my stash today. I haven't turned them in yet but could take my 90 Kannagi to 95. Dammit, I know I could buy things that would be more "useful" (like a RMEA for a whole different job that would probably get more play in high end content, like a Masamune for my SAM)... but Kannagi calls to me ;)

Kannagi does have its uses though, and it can be BiS mainhand in the right situations. White damage monster with Empy AM3 up, and plays well with some of the more recent NIN gear being rather crit focused (Kendatsuba, Mummu+2, etc.) In uncapped attack situations, tends to lose to Kikoku and all that Atk from weapon+relic AM though. Also a lot less flexible SC wise than Heishi or Kikoku.

I'm perpetually annoyed by that AGI+50 (and Hi being an AGI mod WS to begin with), but even that has some interesting possibility for TP phase through added Racc for Daken. I'd still trade it in for DEX+50 and a Hi DEX mod any day though.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2018-01-18 01:19:58  
They're 1 of a few pairs for top Enmity.

In regards to your talk about Blade: Hi. The reason it was so great in the past is that we had incredibly inflated crit rates and crit dmg.

Check to see what a Rogue's roll does for you. My assumption, that as your crit rate goes up, you'll find crit damage doing better for you (depending on how much you already have) compared to AGI.

I'd do it myself but... I'm busy doing Dragoon AF quests atm. :D It's like 2004 all over again.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-01-18 01:25:24  
Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
I'd do it myself but... I'm busy doing Dragoon AF quests atm. :D It's like 2004 all over again.

Haha, I get you... My December-January project has been dragging WAR to semi-competence from a lowly lv50 subjob. Yes, my initial reason was just to have a lv99 job to wear some lockstyle gear I couldn't equip...

Had to get all my AF armor for that from scratch, but now I'm rocking body/legs/feet AF 119+2, and another one or two solo Omen card farming runs from +3 feet. Might actually hop into that right after this post.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Langly
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2018-01-18 01:29:56  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Yes, my initial reason was just to have a lv99 job to wear some lockstyle gear I couldn't equip...


It's like... you understand me. :D
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By Asura.Cicion 2018-01-18 01:48:45  
Mabey they will give ninja a temper buff ninjitsu and we can all rush for some cray high skill builds for it. Be coo if kakka ichi scaled a touch with skill.
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-01-18 11:55:14  
Yeah my only thought for it was maybe Hi when youre really pushing it for att/acc otherwise I realize it isnt worth much but just being able to say you have it.
I've got rager's +1 for enmity and im still debuffing/bursting in +3 feet I think I was just trying to find some use for it somewhere because I just got the 2 shards lmao
 Quetzalcoatl.Langly
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2018-01-18 13:27:21  
Maybe the set bonus will be wtfbbq amazing?
 Carbuncle.Lunatone
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-01-18 14:00:13  
I'm assuming the set bonus will be att/ratt/matt? like the AF being acc bonus? if so I could totally see it being awesome to nuke in!
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-01-18 14:19:34  
Carbuncle.Lunatone said: »
I'm assuming the set bonus will be att/ratt/matt? like the AF being acc bonus? if so I could totally see it being awesome to nuke in!

For "free nuke" elemental ninjutsu, I guess that would be good? But man, it's gonna be really hard to top burst damage +10% on AF+3 feet when you're nuking for a MB. And that tends to be the only place I find it truly worthwhile to cast elemental ninjutsu in the first place.

With all of the attack stats on most of the relic +2/+3 gear, I wouldn't be surprised if you're right about set bonus helping att/ratt/matt though.

Asura.Cicion said: »
Mabey they will give ninja a temper buff ninjitsu and we can all rush for some cray high skill builds for it. Be coo if kakka ichi scaled a touch with skill.

Interesting idea with temper spell, but with all the multiattack we already have I'd actually prefer something else. Crit rate or dmg ninjutsu? Mmmmmmmmmm.

Of course, there's also the long suggested idea of tweaking Innin/Yonin. Get rid of the Innin positioning requirement or the acc penalty on Yonin? All right!
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-01-18 14:50:03  
Momentarily I liked the idea of matt set bonus because I normally handle the statues/pulls in [D] and alot of it is throwing San's inbetween auto rounds and I thought MAN THAT SOUNDS GREAT FOR THIS ONE THING I DO TWICE A WEEK. But yes I absolutely agree about the +3 feet the only time I really ever cast nukes is Futae up and for bursting otherwise I just go about my business unless its some NM that takes alot of extra magic dmg on bursts Yilan, Blightslither etc.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-01-18 15:04:18  
Glad we're talking about ninjutsu spells. Not long ago I was on NIN soloing a bit and thought to myself that Ninjutsu needs a few more spells to bring them back to being competitive. Something unique would be interesting. Aisha/Kakka I guess is unique, but all of the other spells besides utsusemi are trumped by other magic, making ninjutsu really inefficient.

I'd love to see a Ninjutsu spell that gave us MAB/MACC boost. Even something that lowered the enemy's magic evasion, or enhanced our magical crit. Scaled stp ninjutsu would be cool, for tp overflow purposes mainly.
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-01-19 01:04:17  
One thing to consider regarding Mochizuki +3 vs Hachiya +3 is that the latter has +20 INT, a value which is tipically completely absent on non-mage feet equipment.

We don't know the real contribution that INT provides to macc for Ninjutsu, but it does contribute to damage. Granted the per-point contribution from Mab is larger than the one from INT, it still matters at the end of the day.

Mochizuki has no INT at all, like most feet gear for melee.
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2018-01-25 03:14:39  
So giving Ninja a shot, anyone able to give me a breakdown of how to play? I have solid gear, but need a lot of JSE and any relevant abjuration HQ's still. But what I'm looking for is:

Which ninjitsu to use? STP one always keep up? Anything else?

Any JA's worth using other than Innin/Yonin as direction allows?

So far Shun is my best WS, but I figure once I get a better WSD set Ten will be? (using aeonic) with Hi and Kamu used mostly for SC purposes.

Otherwise I can find gearsets in this thread, but I burned NIN to 99 forever ago, decided to make aeonic and going to see how much I enjoy the job as I get some Omen cards and JP. Would like to be doing it right, as that might make me enjoy the job a bit more.
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-01-25 04:46:49  
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
but need a lot of JSE and any relevant abjuration HQ's still.
Not sure there's a lot of "vital" JSE for Ninja.
Useful/situational pieces sure, but "vital"? Hmmm... Only Vital piece I can think of is Empyfeet for the Utsu+1 bonus.
Well and Ambu cape(s) of course.

My breakdown of JSE for NIN

As far as Abj are concerned, you probably want Adhemar+1 head/body/hands, but I'm sure you already have those.
Ryuo+1 Hands are cool but debateable for Ninja-only.
You want Mummu+2 set for sure though.
Also Samnuha Legs, Samnuha Coat (for nuking, not vital at all) and Hizamaru+2 legs.
Other Hizamaru+2 pieces can be a nice inventory-saving compromise for multiple purpose, but knowing the type of player you are I'm sure you got better options for all the slots save legs.


Quote:
Which ninjitsu to use? STP one always keep up? Anything else?
Subtle Blow one is a novelty. STP is cool but tipically you need to keep it up during the off-times, like before engaging or while swapping targets and so on.
In most situations using it during engage/fights is a DPS loss.
I seem to recall there are exceptions according to the overall STP value you have etc. You can calculate this, approximately, on the spreadsheet.


Quote:
Any JA's worth using other than Innin/Yonin as direction allows?
Sange is a nice DPS JA to use on cooldown but it's very annoying since it consumes shurikens. Since most cool shurikens aren't easy to obtain in large quantities you need to decide how to approach this and which shuriken to use during Sange.
Each use of Sange consumes a variable amount of shurikens. On average I would say ~30?
Innin is awesome. I would say refresh it every time the cooldown is up (since the potency degrades over time) but that causes the Ja-use-attack-delay so in some circumstances it might generate a DPS loss, you need to see for yourself.

Yonin is tipically only useful if you're in a situation where you're supposed to keep hate.

Use Innin and Yonin in conjunction with their related enmity ninjutsu.
Yain reduces enmity gain, Gekka increses them.
You can use them too boost the respective bonuses from Innin/Yonin, or mix them up to find a hybrid compromise.
Don't forget Yonin is a loss of ~30 accuracy.

NIN SP2 "Mikage" is a very moderate DPS increase, due to the huge amount of Multiattack we get and the 8hits per round cap.
Paradoxically I think someone showed how single wielding produces better results during Mikage lol.
Can use it, but don't expect your DPS to go miles up.


WS-wise these are the options you should consider:
Blade: Hi => Only for SC or specific purposes, unless you mainhand a Kannagi
Blade: Metsu => Only available to Kikoku, which is not the BiS katana but it's really good. Very nice overall option, kinda replaces Hi for SC purposes
Blade: Ten => Your best WS when you're superbuffed, especially if you have a Heishi Shorinken (overall BiS MH katana)
Blade: Shun => Best WS to use, only Light property one (with Aeonic AM up), it's especially the best when you're not attack capped because of the att bonus it bears. When superbuffed, as I said above, Ten is tipically better.
Blade: Kamu => supershitty WS, useful for solo multistepping.


Not sure what else to add, I'm not the best NIN around myself, hopefully other people will add key aspects I forgot about.
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