The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

Gonna be funny when those 10000 pluton stages jump from ~20m to 60 when they give relics 5% more damage.

Same book different page. It is always fun to see in real time though.

***items octuple in price with idiot tax.

(and then instead of a 20m dust collector you have a 100m dust collector, good times)

Dark relics. Lock style. Can't collect dust if it's in your outfit!

Wait did I miss something? What did they say about Spharai?

When they did all the h2h ws update, they said they couldn't (wouldn't) touch final heaven, unless they did a whole relic wide update.

So reading back several pages and not seeing, is Heishi still considered the best main hand for dpsing (with tanking in low man in mind too but in that case higher dps means more hate without making an su5 right?) I have an 85 kannagi and very much wouldnt mind upgrading it IF its worth it. Kikoku i would also be willing to make if its up there. Just trying to get a grasp on this fully before I dive into even more. I have found myself having a lot of fun on this job since i came back.

Heishi is, more often than not, the best DPS katana. It does very well with a variety of useful WS, and it's easy to use in that you don't need to pay much attention to maintaining aftermath (unless you're trying to do a big Radiance SC). You'll want to be prepared with solid WS sets for all of the following:

*Blade: Shun for katana WS spam, especially with lower buffs. Heishi unlocking light property for Shun is really nice.
*Blade: Ten if you're heavily buffed. WS at 2000+ effective TP, so 1250 with Moonshade, or spam away at 1000 if using offhand TP bonus magian katana.
*Hybrid WS (Chi, To, Teki) are very strong especially if you're getting buffed for both physical + magical (e.g., a GEO using Acumen/Malaise plus melee BRD and/or COR buffs), and Heishi is the best mainhand for them. YMMV on how well hybrids do depending on buffs (and they can still be good without perfect buffs), but in the right situation they are great.

Heishi is probably the safest all-arounder, though the other RMEAs do have their uses as niche players. Because I talk too much when it comes to NIN, I'll say something about them!

Kannagi is sometimes ideal for DPS. It's a white damage monster that plays really well with NIN's access to Innin and crit-heavy gear (triple damage AM3 crit procs are the name of the game). That can be the ideal weapon choice if you aren't getting strong buffs, or if for whatever other reason crits are particularly strong. It's also a bit trickier to use than Heishi due to maintaining Empy aftermath and having the sort of weird AGI stat mod, which will lead you be less flexible and lean mostly on Blade: Hi spam with a focus on white damage + darkness SCs (it's more of a hit to your DPS to use a non-associated WS with Kannagi than it is for the other RMEAs that still offer something for other WS besides their associated one - Aeonic TP Bonus and high DMG, Relic Atk/Atk+10% AM, Mythic AM proc on WS, and higher Acc/DMG)

Kikoku is a good all around weapon, and Metsu (with augments) is a strong WS with excellent SC properties. The issue is just that Heishi is similarly strong at low buffs, and pulls away at higher buffs. I still occasionally use it for niche SC heavy situations, but I wouldn't call it necessary for anyone with Heishi. It's a straightforward weapon that performs fine though, for anyone who has an easier time getting a Relic than an Aeonic (or is prioritizing other Aeonics).

Nagi is for getting Mythic AM up and riding the super fast TP gain (more about WS frequency and cumulative DPS than WS average damage). It's a lot more respectable than many people realize. Plays really nice with Malignance gear's combo of STP/DT- for a safe hybrid/defensive build that adds a bit more punch than you get when using a different katana and going into a more defensive set. Also great for solo multi-stepping, and has some interesting applications with TP bonus offhand that are pretty competitive DPS-wise. Augments make Blade: Kamu not suck (Kamu sucks real hard on all other katanas). Mythics are expensive and tedious though, and probably not the best first choice for RMEA katana.

And the awkward elephant in the room:
Naegling is very good with strong buffs. Savage Blade spam is braindead easy (assuming you remember you want 2000+ effective TP). Has a lot less SC flexibility than katana, and it feels gross to use a sword on NIN. But worth calling out.

Just getting to grips with it myself, from what I have read, collectively, Heishi is decent but loses out to Metsu on a high buffed situation, In fact, when Hyper buffed its actually the worst weapon skill (from what I have read) with Metsu winning on Kikoku and Hi a close 2nd on Kannagi. The white damage of kannagi really shouldnt be under estimated. Heishi is, however, best as far as im aware in Trust situations. So, build them all ;)

You have that a bit backwards. Kikoku is actually probably at its best in trust/lower buff situations, since you'll likely benefit from the large Atk on the weapon and from easily maintained Relic AM.

Once you start adding heavy player buffs, if you cap attack Heishi and Blade: Ten will really shine. If you don't get as many buffs, Heishi still has a great option because Blade: Shun (with the associated weapon boost from Heishi) performs well there.

I don't think he got it backward, more like he got it a little wrong. Kikoku 10% attack buff and 60 attack has no real chance to compete with shun, :Hi or probably even Nagi Kamu in low buff scenario. The sweet spot for Kikoku is when 10% attack buff is what you need to cap attack and accuracy requiment is too high to use tp bonus offhand. Then Kikoku easily does the highest WS damage when you spam WS as close to 1000tp as possible and you also has some triple damage chance on first hit and you self darkness just from Metsu spam.

Actually when self darkness isnt wasted (I mean mob has enough hp for darkness damage to be relevant and darkness isnt resisted, then Kikoku will probably win at attack cap even when you can use tp bonus offhand). Ofc that's assuming you are not ideally buffed for hybrid WS, because then Heishi is easily best.

I agree that your explanation is probably more accurate than my previous oversimplified response. However, it's also true that the gap between Heishi and Kikoku widens substantially as you get stronger buffs - so it's at least a closer call at lower buffs and margin of error (for instance, imperfect WS timing) might lead to a Kikoku win. And TBH, in those lower buff situations, you're almost guaranteed to get better DPS out of Kannagi thanks to more meaningful white damage from Empy AM crits (which will take on greater importance when your WS are not inflated by strong buffs).

It's also a great point that Kikoku needs to spam WS at close as possible to 1000tp... and that to me is the biggest reason that Heishi is the most practical NIN RMEA. A real person is simply not going to be able to WS at the optimal time to not waste TP, and Heishi is the only one of the RMEA that almost always benefits from TP overflow.

Heishi = TP overflow is very helpful for any of Ten, Shun, hybrid
Kikoku = TP overflow is useless for Metsu
Kannagi = TP overflow is of minimal help for Hi
Nagi = TP overflow is useless for Kamu (though Nagi users are probably also using a decent amount of Shun/Ten)

This is also a big reason I'm less enthusiastic about TP bonus magian offhand for Heishi. It can look better on a spreadsheet than it ever tends to do in reality, due to higher likelihood of wasted TP if you go above 1250tp (or 1500tp without Moonshade Earring). Honestly, that's a pretty frequent occurrence on a job like NIN that swings really fast with a lot of multi-attack. But YMMV depending on how much of an accurate robot you are!

And Kikoku is the arguably the worst of the bunch/most reliant on perfect WS timing, because even if you waste some TP on the other non-Aeonic weapons, they still get more significant ancillary benefits than Kikoku's atk. Kannagi still gets super strong white damage (and some modestly better TP generation through AGI for Daken racc), and is a bit less reliant anyway on total WS damage as a portion of overall DPS. Nagi still gets fastest TP generation that can lead to greater WS frequency (and fewer dropped self SC opportunities).


Strong self-SC ability and overall SC utility does help Kikoku (like you said, when the mob can actually survive). But the same factor helps other NIN RMEAs. If you're using Heishi, you can just spam Shun-Shun for simple Light SCs. Or Hi-Hi darkness on Kannagi. Or Kamu-Shun (or lengthier multisteps) on Nagi.

It's true that you can't do the same thing with Blade: Ten (or Savage Blade), but all of the RMEA katana have good self SC capacity - that's really not unique to Kikoku. Metsu's somewhat unique niche is just that it chains so damn well with SO many different WS from other jobs, making it really flexible and potentially able to make Darkness or Light SCs while still taking advantage of the highest damage WS for Kikoku (thanks to the Relic associated WS damage boost/afterglow augments).

Fabulous breakdown and explanations. I'm getting bored in game, I might make kannagi now since you've talked it up so much and it seems like an interesting change of pace weapon.

Situations where I’ve seen Kikoku really shine:

Gin solo. The ability to Metsu Metsu for darkness or Shun Metsu for light depending on his mode is great, or just Ten spam if he is absorbing both...not to mention the huge attack boost you get which is great for solo/trust buff situation. I almost always Kikoku on my solo Gin runs.

Mamool Mages ambuscade. My team 3 man mercs this one (NIN RDM BRD). Similar to Gin, the ability to Light or Dark while still using strong WS’s at the drop of a hat is huge, although the attack from the aftermath is mostly useless here as you’ll probably be near attack cap with 2 minuets and dia3 from the RDM.

Heishi gets much more use on my end but Kikoku has its spot too. I know some regret R15ing it but I love my R15 Kikoku.

Basically as Capu said...Kikoku is very good in situations where you need SC flexibility and may be too lazy to change weapons. Heishi is great for light SCs and Kannagi great for Darkness but Kikoku does both really really well. Kikoku is kinda similar to Armageddon for CORs/RNGs in that it has certain situations where it is so damn good and is solid/all purpose the rest of the time.

made a post regarding gearsets for aspiring ninjas in 2021 here: https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/55622/2021-ninja-gearsets/

Didn't want to detract from the overall great conversation of this thread, but please if anyone wants to chime in, all input is appreciated.

I'm really confused, a really well put through argument (not argument per se, more like debate) with everyone being genuinely helpful! This is NOT the FFXIAH I vote for! All joke aside, great explanations from both of you ^ ^
Many thanks :)

Im aware of this, but in scenario when attack is capped, Metsu is AFAIk the strongest WS among those that can self darkness or self light in 2 step, so Shun-Metsu and Metsu-Metsu should be the highest damage option for both 2step Darkness and 2step Light. TP overflow also doesnt really mean much for any of those WSs (:Hi will be slightly better with 1500TP instead of 1200, but its marginal).

Just saw that Kannagi is Apademak path, super duper nope.

Hey, if I'm entertaining making a Nagi you can consider making a Kannagi. :D

Do it. The bladechi spam with nagi is so fun.

Hey, I get it... I refuse to make a Verethragna solely due to my belief that I'd enjoy lighting myself on fire more than farming Chloris buds. Personally, I don't mind Apademak as much. But I understand!


Nagi WS spam really IS a lot of fun to use, this is not a lie. And Langly, don't you want the most stylish weapon?

I recently made a Kannagi for myself and yes, Apademak is like, what, one of the most annoying NMs ever?
I guess Asura makes it worse because those things were super camped, so unless you want to spend lotsa gil buying pops from AH (I didn't because I'm super cheap) it's gonna be a pain.

Concept-wise Apademak is the same as Orthrus, but I hardly ever found competition at Orthrus (Tiger King Camp), whereas Apademak was super camped Q_Q
It's a matter of luck though, concept-wise they're the same.

Back at level 90 cap Apadamak had the additional annoyance of also being harder to kill than Orthrus I guess, but these days they're all the same, really.

Orthrus is for Twashtar and Ukon. First one is rarely made because most people just use Tauter and treat THF as job sometimes used for TH. Ukon is niche weapon for most. Both also start with Glavoid and that also push people away. Now Apademak is for Almace which is very popular weapon for many new BLU players, Kannagi which is similar to Ukon and finally star of the show Daurdabla. Everyone make Daurdabla. People who box brd, brds who want to play endgame etc.

Well, well, well. Looks like we have a new tanking offhand. And this is before any augments, remains to be seen what those add. Thanks for your service, Shuhansadamune (which I just used a bit this past month doing tank/DPS duty on Ambuscade, as an offhand to Fudo path C).


NIN actually looks to be pretty great for Odyssey Gaol.

1) Less reliant on requiring perfect buffs than most melee jobs (can cap attack delay with DW only, regardless of how much haste you're getting).

2) Can likely fill the coveted tank slot for some NMs, especially since PLD and RUN can only be used for 2 of 3 NMs if going for 3. Let's see what we get that's blink-tank friendly.

3) Has some other additional utility. Relatively safe DPS, solid enfeebles, MB nukes might be helpful on certain NMs.

Flexibility and some self-sufficiency seem like significant advantages for this event, to help fill party roles based on available jobs. Stuff like NIN BLU DNC appear well positioned to be very helpful.

I think augment will be

[1]DEF+20
[2]"Daken"+5

Aren't the 2 augment lines tipically for accessories, whereas ilevel item slots get 3 lines?
Or at least that has been the format for all Unity Augmentable gear so far, maybe they changed their approach with these new items.



Off Topic: Capu did you like tanking with Fudo C more than with Kannagi? In last month's ambuscade I mean.

Maybe, but only other weapon than this defensive katana is almost identical in approach defensive dagger and this augment for that dagger

[1]DEF+20
[2]"Waltz" potency +5%

would almost mirror approach for what I think is Katana augment.

I initially tried Fudo thinking I'd like the enmity boost and spamming Utsu, as keeping hate was the bigger struggle and I was still doing pretty great WS damage (I was using a lot of Shun to SC with party members). It worked quite well so I never really changed it up. Though yeah, I suppose generating constant hate through volatile enmity from huge Kannagi AM procs prob would have worked well too.

I did a lot less Ambu last month than I would have liked though, so not exactly someone who did it a ton and really optimized my approach though. Was kinda preoccupied with CP/Omen events in-game & some limited playtime in general due to holidays, RL stuff, getting preoccupied with some other games...

I only tried Kannagi because it was my shiny new R15 weapon, but I couldn't keep up with the damage from Vere MNK and Torcleaver DRK.

Granted I was using my default TP set and not a specific Kannagi AM TP set aiming for different stats (I assume crit rate and cdmg?).
I don't even remember what I have in my no-DW TP set on NIN, think it's just 5/5 Kendatsuba+1 probably.


Do you guys have an updated Kannagi AM TP set? Wanna see if I can get some inspiration to create one for my NIN.

Tbh I kinda think Kannagi white damage is kinda overrated. Nin has pretty good crit rate, ok multi-attack, but lacks crit damage and lacks things like "double attack" damage+ or "triple attack" damage + that push white damage on higher level.

Basically what makes white damage builds worth to consider and competitive for over just WS frequency on jobs like THF, RNG, WAR or MNK is very good mix of some or all of:
1. Crit damage
2. Crit rate
3. AM3 working for all hits
4. Triple/Double Attack/Shot damage+
5. WS scaling with TP (you lose less sacrificing WS frequency if your WS will hit harder)

Kannagi crits might be significant in very low pdif scenario, but Kannagi build focused on white damage in close to attack cap scenario is probably not something that can be competitive over going for WS frequency (I dont have calculation, but its just a guts feeling based on how competitive are white damage focused builds on jobs I mentioned, that are far better suited for them)

so https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Tsuru is probably the offhand of choice for tanking now i imagine?