Upheaval Thoughts

You know you're 14 levels above that NM, right?

As for twilight vs mask, it depends on what your attack is at. High def(high tier VW) twilight will win, fodder mobs(jailer of temp) mask should win.

It's as relevant as you using it with MS and stalwarts tonic on a lvl 105 VW mob. The attack difference between twilight and mask is 11? You would trade 4% DA for 11 attack on a 4 hit WS while well over attack cap due to stalwarts?

I guess you don't do much VW to know how much of an impact attack buffs have. Most certainly not capped attack with just stalwarts, and I'd put money on not being capped after chaos and berserk, too.

Not the way you do it obviously, b/c everytime I do VW we have a brd and corsair in the melee pty. You're easily well over capped attack with chaos roll, berserk and stalwarts. Otherwise you wouldn't touch 7.2k on your WS's even with MS. If 11 attack is greater that 4% DA than I guess you'd be better off rocking centaurus earring over brutal during WS for the 10 attack eh? Riiiiiiiiiiight.

Yea... Af3+2 is definitely better than twilight..in..almost every situation >.>, And unless you're not using food for whatever reason, Capped att in vw is easy

Why on earth is anyone giving you Chaos Roll?

Seems like the same lame-brained argument people had for using Twilight over AF3+2 for Ukkos.

Except for Upheaval.

I sure hope you guys don't think attack caps at 999.

Anyways, my choice in twilight vs +2 comes from oto +1 being better than +2 in VW for ukko's, I had not looked into it, but since you guys insist; I checked out Motenten's latest spreadsheet.

Assuming buffs of: RCB, March x2, Chaos, Stalwarts and Berserk
Assuming monster stats of: Lv101, Def 560, VIT 110

DPS of my set w/ twilight helm: 523.908
DPS of my set w/ ravager's +2: 522.123

Not a gigantic difference, obviously, but twilight is still better, and as mob lv and defense goes up, twilight only gets better.

Not saying my set is the best in any way, just proving the point that even with max buffs, you aren't capping attack against these mobs like what seems to be commonly believed.

Edit: If you still don't believe this, just parse a few fights of having chaos vs regain for rolls, I promise you'll see a drastic difference.

We're disccusing weapon Skill damage, clearly in damage twilight helm would win, but the fact Ravagers+2 Has the DA would pull ahead over time, Also add food to your buffs cuz anyone shud be using them. you're putting too much faith in a spreadsheet and not accounting everything else. As dude said, nobody rocks Centaurus over brutal for the same reason. You're pretty much saying about 3 att > 1 DA. And the pDIF values change on the higher level mobs sure, but DA would still pull ahead. At least in my opinion, i could be wrong but im having a hard time believing 11 att is better ;x

The 999 "cap" on attack is a visual limitation only. There is no actual known cap on attack, and a simple search on google could have cleared that up for you.

I don't understand why people don't do research, then go around spreading such gross misinformation.

I thought it would be assumed, but i'll edit it in for your sake.



Who are you talking to? If me, did you even read what i said?

Blacklion edited his post like a bawsss.

K wow, thanks for coming up here and spouting off information that we've all known since 75 cap acting like it's news or something. Considerring I have 999 attack in my WS set with just berserk/warcry up, I think it's a bit TOO obvious that I know attack doesn't cap at 999. That said, 11 att does NOT beat 4% DA on a 4 hit WS. We're not talking about a one hit WS here guys, so using simple math isn't going to take into account that you can DA every single hit for a max of 8 hit in the WS. This argument is absolutely rediculous. The gearset Ejiin posted for Upheaval was less than mediocre, and all I was trying to nicely say it needed to be adjusted for better results.

looooooooooooooooooooooool
like i said
it was in response to blacklion
and he edited his post LIKE A BAWSS

glad you wasted your time with that entire post, though

I guess this is the end of the line. You're getting defensive without showing any real proof of your own; just saying you KNOW it's better based off of your awesome personal experience, am I right?

also, eff why eye, double attack can only proc on the first 2 hits of a weaponskill :3

Also: ITT: I'm a troll for correcting misinformation that people ninja-edit out of their posts to save face when it gets pointed out.

Okay then.

Fine, when I get home from spending Christmas Eve with family tomorrow I'll run kparser and do a sample myself since obviously everyone else is wrong and 11 att wins over 4% DA on a 4 hit WS. How large of a sample size would you like, on what level mobs, etc? I guess you're one of the guys that uses Twilight Helm for Ukko's as well? Based on what you've said so far, it's better when attack's not capped. >.>

I never said it was the best, this whole argument started when you said you can cap attack in VW with stalwarts and berserk. I was only correcting you in showing you that it's not easily capped and it has a large impact on WS number averages. Sure the DA+4% will make it spike some more, but over 1000 WS, the average with favor twilight.

1000 WS should do.

My gear sets are on my profile page, you're free to copy them if you want to be a better warrior ^^;

You're gonna want to change those WS sets after the Ukko's nerf. No more ignoring ddex, which you did with both ukko's sets you posted.

lol

lol, wow. I'm going to stop now. I thought you'd at least contribute something constructive, but you're obviously clueless. You have a relic, so you think you're a good warrior, but from the knowledge you have demonstrated so far, you're oblivious.

I apologize to everyone who read the last 2 pages for dragging this on longer than it should have.

You can't multi-hit on more than 2 attacks in a multi hit WS. Assuming no triple attack, Upheaval can only get to 6 hits. You would need 2x triple procs to get up to an 8 hit upheaval.

I hope everyone realises the extra attack from twilight gets multiplied by stalawrts(10%)/berserk(25%)/food(23%)/chaos(19%), so it's more than 11 attack difference, more like 20 attack.

Double Attack also has diminishing returns. You're most likely already sitting on about 25% DA from other equipment. And that extra double attack does even less with Warriors Charge up.



Given that PDIF caps at 2.25 for 2handed weapons.
Assuming 600 DEF for VW mobs (which is very low, it's more likely to be 700+ for the new NMs such as Ig-Alima), you'd need 1350 attack to cap p.dif.
Anyone who ever played mnk using asuran fists will know the impact attack has on a weaponskill with a large number of hits.


Dropping some reasonable thinking instead of maths on you all, the attack boost of around 20 atk applies to all hits, even if you DA twice.
The DA can boost at most, 2 hits. and 25% (or whatever your base DA is without mask) of the time, it's not doing anything.

There IS a point where stats > DA for a weaponskill, and in this case it's very close. as Ejiin said, there's about a 10 point damage difference over a large sample size.

However, it's NOT just a case of 4% DA vs 11 attack.
When mob defence goes up, you can't use the same equipment as you did against fodder abyssea mobs. It just won't cut it.


and @Biginallways, you have no gear in your profile, just some gimp *** carb build rocking nq grim harness and ares legs.

Opted for a softer response to avoid a topic ban. Please elaborate mathematically on how you arrived at all of these conclusions.