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Evidence for God. Really?
 Shiva.Weewoo
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3323
By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-06-04 23:00:28
Asura.Israfel said: Shiva.Weewoo said: True. Ironically these so called "atheists" tend to shove this down religious followers throats more so than your typical jehovah witness. However, I see nothing wrong in each side presenting their own case and selling point and taking logical picks at each other's faults and whatnot. However, FFXIAH is far from sitting in a leather leather chair by the fireplace drinking bourbon while contemplating theories with a scholar.
LMAO amen to that dude.
As much as I love a good discussion, I kinda wish religion was kinda nixed from forum topics. As religious as I am, here it always seems to end badly, even when the thread was made with the best of intentions: (Example on a good thread: Couple days ago someone made a prayer request thread that got nixxed within minuted of it being up thanks to trolls)
Aye, it's a double edged sword because everyone takes it personally on both sides. I understand the need to defend one's faith or belief as much as the need to defend yourself phyiscally. However, from what I have learned over the years (even though I do not share any views on any existing theologies) is that religion/faith/belief etc. should specifically exist in the heart and mind of the individual.
It's when it becomes outspoken and preached that broods misinterpretation, confusion, alienating others and otherwise violent conflict and hate. Which for those reasons exactly I have turned a deaf ear to religion itself regardless of how benevolent or which dogma fits my personal set of understanding. What matters most in these kinda discussion but we so rarely see: Mutual Respect.
Shiva.Weewoo
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3323
By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-06-04 23:01:41
Leviathan.Chaosx said: Shiva.Weewoo said: Asura.Israfel said: Shiva.Weewoo said: Asura.Israfel said:
Edit: We don't have to post here, but we do have a right to defend our beliefs. But if you don't like it, you can go elsewhere too, y'know.
The thing is, a belief is something that should relate specifically to an individual. Although many can share the same one, a disagreement or someone else's separate perhaps even conflicting set of beliefs shouldn't be taken as a personal insult. Unfortunately the OP has yet to word himself in a sophisticated and elegant/civil manner that can make this more of a debate and discussion more so than a "NO U" fest which it has quickly become.
Some of us still retain the civility to put forth our beliefs in a reasonable manner :P
I will never nevereverever berate or belittle someone for not sharing my beliefs, and rightly so. I'll never damn anyone to hell, call them heathens, sinners and so on / so forth for not sharing my views. But I dislike it when someone has the nerve to swoop in and start the "HUUURRR ur stoopid 4 beleevin in God.lol" with no other argument than 'religion is obsolete and you're all living in the dark ages. OH! brb, gotta cut and paste something I saw online to try and make my point valid"
True. Ironically these so called "atheists" tend to shove this down religious followers throats more so than your typical jehovah witness. However, I see nothing wrong in each side presenting their own case and selling point and taking logical picks at each other's faults and whatnot. However, FFXIAH is far from sitting in a leather leather chair by the fireplace drinking bourbon while contemplating theories with a scholar.What if I'm sitting in a leather chair with a laptop drinking some bourbon? Surely we could solve all the worlds problems like that!
You would be my hero and we could spend many hours theorizing and contemplating the countless entities this world and universe contains.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1085
By Asura.Israfel 2010-06-04 23:01:43
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サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1097
By Lakshmi.Feifongwong 2010-06-04 23:01:52
Mateuns said: Lakshmi.Feifongwong said: Quetzalcoatl.Sectumsempra said: There is such a thing of absence of belief; it's called total ignorance. If you raised a child in isolation and he never knew about death or religion and such, he would never think about it, therefore he would have an absence of belief.
Fair enough, and at least it's a logical argument. However, Atheism is a belief. Sorry for quoting the first page. How can one believe in something with no ontology whatsoever? I do not have a belief in any god or gods. I do not believe that they don't, because that would imply I had the mental attitude that the phrase "no gods exist" is true. That is as intellectually dishonest a position as affirming the existence of a god. Atheism is not a belief so much as bald is a hair color. You're trying to define atheism such that it shifts the burden of proof. I do not believe that a god exists, but at the same time I do not know positively. Hence, I am an agnostic atheist.
It really does amaze me that people still do not know this. Semantics is a ***.
It really is all semantics. In my opinion if you go out of your way to disprove something or prove your "non-belief" in it, then you do have a belief, a belief that your way of thinking is correct.
The only real term in my opinion that can describe any so called "non-belief" is ignorance. I don't mean this in the "haha you're dumb and stupid way", I mean ignorance as in you never knew, you never could have known and thus you never considered it. That is the only true non-belief.
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1097
By Lakshmi.Feifongwong 2010-06-04 23:02:32
Mateuns said: Lakshmi.Feifongwong said: Quetzalcoatl.Sectumsempra said: There is such a thing of absence of belief; it's called total ignorance. If you raised a child in isolation and he never knew about death or religion and such, he would never think about it, therefore he would have an absence of belief.
Fair enough, and at least it's a logical argument. However, Atheism is a belief. Sorry for quoting the first page. How can one believe in something with no ontology whatsoever? I do not have a belief in any god or gods. I do not believe that they don't, because that would imply I had the mental attitude that the phrase "no gods exist" is true. That is as intellectually dishonest a position as affirming the existence of a god. Atheism is not a belief so much as bald is a hair color. You're trying to define atheism such that it shifts the burden of proof. I do not believe that a god exists, but at the same time I do not know positively. Hence, I am an agnostic atheist.
It really does amaze me that people still do not know this. Semantics is a ***.
It really is all semantics. In my opinion if you go out of your way to disprove something or prove your "non-belief" in it, then you do have a belief, a belief that your way of thinking is correct.
The only real term in my opinion that can describe any so called "non-belief" is ignorance. I don't mean this in the "haha you're dumb and stupid" way, I mean ignorance as in you never knew, you never could have known and thus you never considered it. That is the only true non-belief.
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14155
By Valefor.Slipispsycho 2010-06-04 23:03:38
Sylph.Kimble said: the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence yet countless try to use this argument (sort of backwaeds) to say that god does exist "you cant prove he doesn't so he does.."
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 590
By Bismarck.Magnumatic 2010-06-04 23:04:15
Is not believing in Big Foot a belief too?
Shiva.Weewoo
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3323
By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-06-04 23:05:22
Valefor.Slipispsycho said: Sylph.Kimble said: the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence yet countless try to use this argument (sort of backwaeds) to say that god does exist "you cant prove he doesn't so he does.."
Yep works both ways. Saying "you can't prove it" is almost as equal as saying "Can't prove that it isn't".
I only say almost because we need conventional logic for things like courtrooms and whatnot. That kinda ***won't fly when it comes to having tangible evidence to convict someone of rape or murder.
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1097
By Lakshmi.Feifongwong 2010-06-04 23:06:22
Valefor.Slipispsycho said: Sylph.Kimble said: the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence yet countless try to use this argument (sort of backwaeds) to say that god does exist "you cant prove he doesn't so he does.."
Not really, those are the ones that already believe that a God exists. If you want to prove to them a God doesn't exist then make sure you are ready to prove it.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2010-06-04 23:07:37
I'm not fan of bourbon though, can I drink some of this instead?
Shiva.Weewoo
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3323
By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-06-04 23:07:54
Both sides come up empty handed so nothing can be conclusive. However, as long as faith is harbored within the individual, let their freak flag fly. Unfortunately, this is not the case and hasn't been for thousands of years.
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 590
By Bismarck.Magnumatic 2010-06-04 23:09:44
Apparently since there is no evidence that...
The Loch Ness Monster doesn't exist...
Santa Clause doesn't exist...
The Flying Speghetti Monster doesn't exist..
Big Foot doesn't exist...
Priests that don't rape children don't exist...
That means they exist too!
By Guenhwyvar 2010-06-04 23:10:12
Darwinism meets Idiocracy.... interesting.
Its got electrolytes... its what plants crave!
Perhaps we should form our own FFXI based religon, and base it on the presence of the Almighty Apkallu, since its presence does exist, yet we never ever see it....
We can then determine that anyone with a Birdman's Cape will be granted with the powers of Jesus, cause there's nothing else even worthy of listing as a stat on that thing.
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Caitsith.Silvaria
サーバ: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 269
By Caitsith.Silvaria 2010-06-04 23:12:13
Lakshmi.Feifongwong said: Caitsith.Silvaria said: Nothing about the OP particularly bashes religion. It's actually fairly logical, since too many religious people try to equate atheism with faith. It doesn't require faith to NOT believe in something, it simply requires an absence of belief.
There is no such thing as an absence of belief. Atheism is the belief that there is no supernatural being or God or afterlife. IT'S STILL A BELIEF.
Well, you're certainly free to think whatever you want, but just because you say it repeatedly doesn't make it so. 8)
Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2010-06-04 23:13:51
Lakshmi.Feifongwong said: Valefor.Slipispsycho said: Sylph.Kimble said: the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence yet countless try to use this argument (sort of backwaeds) to say that god does exist "you cant prove he doesn't so he does.."
Not really, those are the ones that already believe that a God exists. If you want to prove to them a God doesn't exist then make sure you are ready to prove it. Proving that god or gods do not exist is like saying; prove nothing exists. Nothing can't exist otherwise it wouldn't be nothing.
I suppose you could also use the other example; prove to me that everything doesn't exist. I think that ones is self explanatory.
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 14155
By Valefor.Slipispsycho 2010-06-04 23:14:05
Lakshmi.Feifongwong said: Valefor.Slipispsycho said: Sylph.Kimble said: the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence yet countless try to use this argument (sort of backwaeds) to say that god does exist "you cant prove he doesn't so he does.."
Not really, those are the ones that already believe that a God exists. If you want to prove to them a God doesn't exist then make sure you are ready to prove it.
You can't prove that it is real, therefore, your argument is pointless to begin with. It is an unprovable matter, so there is nothing to state or show them that he doesn't exist. There is no proof, period.
Sylph.Oddin
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1756
By Sylph.Oddin 2010-06-04 23:16:20
Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. That we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather.
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Caitsith.Silvaria
サーバ: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 269
By Caitsith.Silvaria 2010-06-04 23:17:28
The idea that atheism is a belief is actually quite hilarious...I guess babies are born actively believing there is no god? Hardly. They're born lacking a belief in a god, which is all atheism is.
I hope that helps. 8)
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 590
By Bismarck.Magnumatic 2010-06-04 23:18:10
Valefor.Slipispsycho said: You can't prove that it is real, therefore, your argument is pointless to begin with. It is an unprovable matter, so there is nothing to state or show them that he doesn't exist. There is no proof, period. Bismarck.Magnumatic said: Apparently since there is no proof that...
The Loch Ness Monster doesn't exist...
Santa Clause doesn't exist...
The Flying Speghetti Monster doesn't exist..
Big Foot doesn't exist...
Priests that don't rape children don't exist...
That means they exist too!
 Lakshmi.Fullen
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 25
By Lakshmi.Fullen 2010-06-04 23:18:14
Sylph.Oddin said: Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. That we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather.
I think therefor i am, no?
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Sylph.Oddin
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1756
By Sylph.Oddin 2010-06-04 23:19:06
Caitsith.Silvaria said: The idea that atheism is a belief is actually quite hilarious...I guess babies are born actively believing there is no god? Hardly. They're born lacking a belief in a god, which is all atheism is.
I hope that helps. 8)
/facepalm...
Lack of knowledge in something does not mean a lack of belief. It's known as ignorance. Actively believing there is no God is atheism.
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 590
By Bismarck.Magnumatic 2010-06-04 23:20:21
Caitsith.Silvaria said: The idea that atheism is a belief is actually quite hilarious...I guess babies are born actively believing there is no god? Hardly. They're born lacking a belief in a god, which is all atheism is. I hope that helps. 8)
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 590
By Bismarck.Magnumatic 2010-06-04 23:23:34
Sylph.Oddin said: Caitsith.Silvaria said: The idea that atheism is a belief is actually quite hilarious...I guess babies are born actively believing there is no god? Hardly. They're born lacking a belief in a god, which is all atheism is. I hope that helps. 8) /facepalm... Lack of knowledge in something does not mean a lack of belief. It's known as ignorance. Actively believing there is not God is atheism.
Is the disbelief of The Flying Speghetti Monster's existence actively believing that it doesn't exist? lol gtfo
Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2010-06-04 23:25:52
Wait consider this point kind of:
Caitsith.Silvaria said: The idea that atheism is a belief is actually quite hilarious...I guess babies are born actively believing there is no god? Hardly. They're born lacking a belief in a god, which is all atheism is.
I hope that helps. 8) and sort of this: Lakshmi.Fullen said: I think therefor i am, no?
Then try to think back to your earliest memory of being.
It's normally around the age of 3 or 4.
Why is that?
Do some critical thinking on that and keep in mind the development of the human brain and consciousness from birth.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1085
By Asura.Israfel 2010-06-04 23:27:02
@ Magnu: There's a difference between not knowing and not wanting to believe in somethings existance.
For example: Newborn child: has no knowledge of God (or heck, knowledge of much! hehe), that's ignorance.
Adult hears about the tooth fairy and thinks that it's a really silly idea and thinks it's a farce and chooses not to believe in its existance.
Sylph.Oddin
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1756
By Sylph.Oddin 2010-06-04 23:28:57
Bismarck.Magnumatic said: Sylph.Oddin said: Caitsith.Silvaria said: The idea that atheism is a belief is actually quite hilarious...I guess babies are born actively believing there is no god? Hardly. They're born lacking a belief in a god, which is all atheism is. I hope that helps. 8) /facepalm... Lack of knowledge in something does not mean a lack of belief. It's known as ignorance. Actively believing there is not God is atheism.
Is the disbelief of The Flying Speghetti Monster's existence actively believing that it doesn't exist? lol gtfo
Yes. Yes it is. I believe your Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist.
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サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 590
By Bismarck.Magnumatic 2010-06-04 23:30:01
How do you believe something doesn't exist if you have never heard of it ? lol
Ramuh.Haseyo
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 22442
By Ramuh.Haseyo 2010-06-04 23:30:58
If you raise a child in the belief that there's a god, it will believe that UNTIL AN ALTERNATIVE BELIEF IS INTRODUCED.
A kid will not randomly say "Hmm, wait a minute..."
Just like kids believe in Santa Clause until:
A) Someone breaks the real answer down
B) They catch their parents putting presents under the tree.
No 3 year old says "lol Santa? That doesn't sound right."
サーバ: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 590
By Bismarck.Magnumatic 2010-06-04 23:32:32
The definition of Atheism is "Lack of belief..."
Do I need to define "Lack" <.<;
Sylph.Oddin
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1756
By Sylph.Oddin 2010-06-04 23:34:03
The same way I believe other things I have heard of that don't exist (Santa Clause, Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, Jews and Palestinians that get along).
The universe is immense. The only tiny spot we know that can sustain life is on Earth. Our existence spans a minuscule fraction of the time Earth will have been around before it gets destroyed by the Sun. If the preposterously small probability of life appearing by chance needs to be demonstrated, we are the living proof.
And even then, we're not all that wonderful. Our "superior" intelligence often remains questionable. We're not even necessarily going to evolve "towards the better" since that would require, according to natural selection, smart people to make more babies than people with lower IQ, for an infinite period of time. Perhaps we're even nearing a peak in terms of global human intelligence.
Considering how the entire universe is filled with chaos and how we're doomed to disappear eventually, how is our absurdly lucky and miserable existence in this universe supposed to serve as evidence for design? The more you look around us, the further you manage to reach out and explore, the more you see how it's actually quite probable that life would happen once in this big mess of colliding galaxies and dying stars.
If some gods really created this chaotic and lifeless universe around us, just to put life on 0.00000000000001% of it, and for such a silly amount of time. If they supposedly did it for us to better enjoy their own supernatural dimension after we die, they're not very skilled at this "creation" stuff. They should quit.
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Most creationist arguments do not describe atheism properly. Atheism simply involves not believing in a god. It's not even something that needs to proven. It's not an ideology. It's not a belief. Neither is it incompatible with agnosticism. Most atheists are agnostic too, because agnosticism follows logic.
It's an absence of belief in a supernatural deity. Nothing particularly special.
Believers are so used to believing in stuff that it's hard for most to grab the simple concept of atheism. One may argue that beliefs are natural. Of course, but they're not to be taken too seriously. Since they lack empirical evidence, they have a high chance of being wrong. Because of his lack of belief in a deity, an atheist could even wish for a god to exist (and have tons of other unrelated beliefs), and remain an atheist. Atheism shouldn't even need a definition. It is the default mindset for any baby when they're born. Also, it's impossible not to be an atheist towards at least a majority of gods. Worshiping all the gods ever invented, all at once, would quickly lead anyone to despair.
But if we're going to argue about something, please try to debate this (without needing any kind of faith-based argument) :
Being unable to prove the non-existence of anything, is perfectly normal, and doesn't prove the existence of something. You can try to reason this way, but will automatically fail, because trying to prove a negative is ridiculous. Being unable to prove a belief wrong changes nothing to the fact that a belief is fallible.
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