Guns Vs Bows

Terry Crews > horse guy

That's not quite fair. There is a big difference between optional expenditure, like medicines, and necessary expenditure, like ammunition. Rangers can't function without ammunition, whereas mages can function without medicine. As for the last sentence, that might be true, but other people research their jobs and soon realise that they can improve them. If people always accepted what they were doing without looking to improve, why do people even do those events? They're obviously happy with the damage they're doing and have no desire to get better gear to do more damage.

For one, your maths is wrong. It's only about twice the amount of gil, you're exagerrating by quite a bit to reinforce your point. Secondly, it's not just "a couple more damage". It's a considerable amount more. So you're paying half to do less damage. That's fine if you want to do it that way; I'm not going to judge you for it.

Your argument would be like using an NQ Staff because the HQ is only 5% more damage. That's flawed; I suppose +1% Haste on Dusk Gloves +1 isn't worth the 15m either? I don't want to come across as rude; because I'm very considering of all playstyles and approaches... But you're going to have to either understand, or ignore (your decision) that some people play with higher standards than you.

For casual players like yourself, the extra expense isn't worth it. I'll say it again, since in your blind rage at being judged you overlooked it; that's fine and understandable, and I accept it. In no way would I dictate to you how to play your job, providing you don't tell me how to play mine. Live and let live, is my motto.

But the maths say Guns produce more damage output than Bows, and no manner of casuality will change that. It's your call how you play your job, just don't preach to other people that it's the best way when it's not.

That's just it, though. You are getting an accurate test. Providing the STR, AGI, Snapshot, Rapid Shot and STP are all the exact same amounts for both weapons, the test is completely fair and accurate. The fact that all these factors affect each weapon differently is irrelevant, and all part of the results. Just because Gun gets a bigger boost from Snapshot and Rapid Shot, doesn't make it unfair.

I haven't been arguing whether gun or bow is better, I'm arguing that using no gear to compare them is inaccurate. That's like saying ebow rng > kclub rng because gearless kclub rng can't hit anything. You have to compare the best way of doing ebow vs the best way of doing HK to get an accurate result. You might come to the same conclusion both ways, but the numbers are going to be different and therefor one is still incorrect.

I went Marksmanship over Archery seeing as I'm leveling COR(71) atm. Hellfire+1 is a nice choice but isn't worth using when you have to be far away from the monster. For that situation I always carry Othinius Bow Acids and Darksteels. (Holy Bolts I only use for Temenos)

DS Bolts on their own can rival Ebow if used for TP and WS, if acid's can proc it's even better. Of course if other people are using Ebow when your acid bolts proc it's about even again.

Gun is actually good even without a melee weapon, when you sub SAM you have a 5 hit and with the right Snapshot Build the delay isn't a huge deal at at all. The time it takes to get 100tp shouldnt be far off fom a 6 hit Ebow/Sbow/Obow but I could be wrong.

The downside about Gun is like I said the distance penalty. If your adamant about Marksmanship please pick up an Othinius Bow for those situations.

Because it uses nearly the same gear......


Ebow/demon tp (6 hit requires stp:13)

vulcans
rose
ebow
demon
barbut
pcc
triumph
triumph
osode/ACP/ebur/etc
BFG
rajas
behe +1
am +1
scouts/bucc
skadi
af2/skadi/etc

Can ws in Str 10 pants


HF +1 5 hit (requires 17 stp)

mekki
rose
hf+1
Silver bullet
barbut
pcc
triumph
triumph
osode/acp/ebur/etc
BFG
Rajas
behem +1
am+1
scouts/bucc
skadi
af2/skadi/etc

Can ws in Str 10 pants

The differences favoring ebow:

10 ratt from vulcans
3 str from ebow
3 agi from ebow
6 ratt during normal shots

The differences favoring HF+1
even ratt on ws from evolith
Higher barrage damage


I've already shown you how HF 5 hit is faster to 100 TP than ebow 6 hit. It should go without saying that a 123 damage weapon will VASTLY outperform a 105 damage weapon on regular shots and ws even with ebow's easier manage fstr2 requirements.

3 str and 10-16 ranged attack really gonna compensate for a weapon that has 20% higher base damage? Not in a million years.

I'm not about to plug in numbers for different pdifs because you won't look at posts from 2006 that would show you what you refuse to see. But the bottom line is the differences in gear are so minimal (namely the staff choice) that subjectivity goes out the window.



.....and now that you have seen that HF+1 wins, imagine a gun that just came out that does 30+% more DOT. Dragonmaw turns the tide even more.

What are you even on about? Providing you use the same gear and stats with both weapons the results are accurate. One of Gun's biggest merits against a bow is the fact it takes less STP to get an X hit build. Why do you need to be firing the same amount of attacks? The very fact that you need to use MORE STP on Bow for "fair results" just proves our point the moreso, lmao.

You're just being so unbelievably pedantic it's frustrating. The whole point of a test is the results are different.

Earlier in this post I showed that 5 hit HF+1 is indeed faster to 100 than ebow 6 hit.


For the second point:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Distance


From 25' gun has a 15% penalty and xbow has 14%
From 20' gun has a 14% penalty and xbow has 14%
From 10' gun has a 10% penalty and xbow has a 0% penalty.....but if a mob is not to dangerous to stand 10' from, its not too dangerous to stand 6' from. Distance penalty variation means next to nothing practically.

You're missing my point all together.

The % difference between naked ebow vs naked HF

Is not the same as

The % difference between ebow vs HF using the same gear

is not the same as

The % difference between the best ebow setup vs the best HF setup

HOW MUCH one is better than the other is dependent on which you are comparing, and some comparisons are more accurate than others.

And there are a LOT more options than the ones listed by barber.

Weapons:
Kriegs/Fran, Mekki, Vulcan's, rose/axe grips

Head:
Burbut, Hunter's+1, Two different Anwig salades, Maat's cap

Neck:
Faith/Hope/Justice Torque, Light/Breeze Gorget, PCC, Qiqirn collar, Leu's Charm

Earrings: Bushimomimi, Suppanomimi, Hollow Earring, Fox Earring, Triumph Earring, Altdorf's/Wilhelms

Hands: Blood FNG, Skadi, Seiryu's Kote

Rings: Behe+1, Rajas, Flame/triumph, jalzhan's ring, Blobnag/Strigoi rinfs

Back: Amemet mantle +1, smilodon mantle+1,

Waist: Buccaneer, Scout's

Legs: Hachiryu, Pahluwan, Scout's, Skadi, dessultor

Feet: scout's, hachiryu, skadi, rutter

And there's more that I haven't listed

Do you have any idea how many possible combinations that leaves lol? Granted some of those aren't good ideas, they'd have different impacts on gun and bow, meaning the difference between them will all be different

Of course it's not the same. That's the entire point you donut. One is better than the other!

Edit: As for the rest I can't be bothered. I concede to your superior intellect.

The whole point is BY HOW MUCH is one better, and BY HOW MUCH one is better than the other depends on what gear you are using. I'll give you a very basic example using the ranger spreadsheet.

We'll start with the basic stats
I'll arbitrarily use a base of 60 str and 60 agi
No buffs, food, or gear vs greater colibri

Sidewinder: 531-591
Slug Shot: 578-643

Difference: HK > Ebow by 8.13 - 8.09%

Now lets add 20 STR to the base calculation

Sidewinder: 611-679
Slug Shot: 647-719

Difference: HK > Ebow by 5.56 - 5.7%

Now lets add 50 STR to the base calculation

Sidewinder: 778-865
Slug Shot: 769-855

Differenc: Ebow > HK by 1.16 - 1.16%

See the difference in the amount at which one beats the other? Given the right stats either can be better. Which is why you have to compare the best of each to get an accurate answer.

Haxorking, I think Barber's post cover it well.
He compare 6-hit EBow VS 5-hit Hellfire+1. He do give you free ground to adjust (ex: you can use AF boots or Skadi boots to TP/WS, it doen't matter).

You want best EBow gear VS best Hellfire+1 gear set?
If you remove STP pieces from his post, you'll probably end using same pieces in other slots, bow or gun, or close to it.

Thanks Barber!
Btw, what would be minimum STP needed for 5 hit Hellfire+1 if ya just remove pants STP piece (Skadi's) for WS? STP+21 seems like overkill (Trying to look for alternatives)

But what about a 4 hit hellfire +1 with an extra 12 ratt on ws on it?

Let me try to explain this differently. My point has nothing to do with which weapon is better than the other one, you need to get that whole idea out of your head. The point is by how much is one better than the other. Is it only slightly better? Is it twice as good? The amount at which one is better than the other can differ greatly by the combination of all the outside factors. Under some circumstances bow may be better than gun, you don't know until you test every possible situation. You can't just compare the two weapons naked then say one is always better than the other.

Haxorking.....the reason that there is no need to compare 999999 gearsets is because they will 99.99% of the time be inferior to the ones I listed. Who cares if full AF rangers before better with bow than gun. With upper tier gear, comparisons are finite and easy.

Yeah, but some of the stuff you listed was HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE too, who uses pcc on rng?

The point still is, the full math done is still concerning naked ebow vs naked HK when it needs to be best ebow vs best HK for decent results

I think you need 19 stp if you only use rajas/mekki/rose (14) for stp on ws, but I'm not sure without looking.

A stp 2 earring would certianly be nice as that would free up our grip for str. Maybe something like that will happen in June.

People who want 1-2 more acc during TP building than hope torque? The gear I listed with merits still doesn't put you at 95% hit rate on birds (I think 91ish?). Hope torque will give you 8-9 racc vs pcc's 10. Obviously gorget on WS, but I didn't want to confuse people with gorget math. For uncapped hit rate PCC--->torque---->every other ranger neck.

And I gave you the 'best' ebow vs the 'best' HF in the gearsets above, barring bellona's ring type of upgrades. You just refuse to see. It's not even me you are arguing with. You are arguing with the math that comprises the damage formulas that have been known for a damn decade. Anyone, with any amount of research would see the things you are arguing about have been set in stone for 7 years since rangers top flight weapons haven't changed (until dragonmaw).

My point from the beginning is this.

The amount at which one weapon is better than the other will vary depending on the gear used.

Because of this, you can't strip all the other gear and compare them and say the results are true for all situations

In some situations, HF may be greatly better than ebow
In some situations they might be equal
In some situations Ebow might be better

Saying that HF > Ebow is generalizing things far too much is all I'm saying.

A bit off topic, I forgot who said it but.... "More pew pew less QQ" :)

Haxor, you're given logic and mathematics, and you answer with "might be better".

While I like the sound of "sometime EBow > HF, depending of the gear", you're the one who is making this suggestion.
YOU will have to post some gear sets to prove your point.
Also, don't bother testing/calculating Suppanomimi ... we don't care if EBow > HF if we wear crap (and we're talking about ranged attacks, not dual wield bonus)

P.S.: It's a little embarassing to say "no one wear PCC" when you include it in list of gear to be tested in YOUR post.

Let me put it this way then:


Against any mob that matters (level 60+), wearing optimal or close to optimal gear, Gun will ALWAYS produce more damage than bow. Buffs, debuffs, level correction, and gear will change how large the gap between the two is. However, because of the 'free period' between shots that is static, the fact that ammo delay adds to stp but not to actual delay, the higher base damage of gun/bullet, the addition of barrage damage, and the faster accumulation of TP, gun will always outperform bow at optimal distances. The ONLY time this will not be the case is when it is safe to stand 10' from a mob, but not 6' from a mob (i.e. never).

Nevermind.....looking at just a few of your other ranger posts here show me that you don't quite grasp ranger attack/delay. Like this gem:


Wrong. Because delay is only 1 of 3 parts that comprise real world delay, things like velocity shot help high delay weapons proportionally more than low delay ones.



Between Nm's tonight I will run a few numbers and show a complete merit and HNM scenerio with gun and bow. All the numbers. Although tbh, it should be you doing the legwork since the burden of proof is most solidly on you to provide an exception to the rule based on the damage formula.

No it doesn't. Quit posting nonsense.

You guys act like a 5 hit build on E bow is impossible, it only takes 21 stp with /sam. ex: rajas, skadi, mekki, and rose is 21 on the nut, and you could swap skadi legs for hachi legs/feet for your ws giving it 24 stp.

Where getting a 4 hit with HF you'd have to get 32 stp /sam, not feasible.

I'd like to see your math on that setup.

HF+1: 640 delay. 640/110 is 5.81 seconds for the 'shooting' phase of the ranged attack. Then add the static 2.9 'free period' for a total of 8.71 seconds.

velocity shot removes 15% from your ranged attack time from the RANGED ATTACK portion of your attack only. The 'free period' remains constant.

So 640*.85=544. 544/110= 5.945 seconds + 2.9 for a total of 7.84.

8.71 to 7.84



For loxley bow (delay 120):

120/110 is 1.09 seconds +2.9 free time for 3.99 seconds total.

15% off 120 is 102. 102/110 is .927 seconds +2.9 'free time' for 3.82

3.99 to 3.82


Are you telling me 8.71 to 7.84 is the same increase % as 3.99 to 3.82?

Hachi legs? Do you mean the SAM JSE that ranger can't wear? Because Serameya drops don't have STP.....

Regardless, it doesn't matter because 5 hit for ebow (+37)is just as easily attained on obow (+32).

ebow+kabura is 109 damage at 490 delay
obow+drk steel is 104 damage at 432 delay.

Axe grip for rose strap makes up the str difference from ebow. 5 base damage is trumped by 58 points of delay and that's BEFORE acid bolts.



Archery is just in a bad place. not that the argument even matters because Dragonmaw completely decimates every other bow, gun, and xbow.

When did I post this?

Well, I'll do some math here, I'll admit it's a bit of a stretch but it's possible

The total delay of Ebow is 7.25 to 7.35s
The total delay of HF is 8.62 to 8.63s
You should be able to confirm that yourself.

Factoring in 5% rapid shot and 5% snapshot that comes to
Ebow: 6.81s to 6.91s = 6.86 AVG
HF: 8.03s to 8.13s = 8.08 AVG

Using/Samurai and rajas ring, Ebow is 6hit tp and HF is 5 hit tp

Therefor the DPS calculations are:

Ebow - [6(Normal Dmg) + WS] / [6(Delay)+1)
(The +1 Delay is ws delay)

HF - [5(Normal DMG) + WS] / [5(Delay)+1)

Under the following circumstances:
Head: Wyvern Helm +1
Neck: Justice Torque
Earring: Triumph x2
Body: Kirins Osode
Hands: Skadi
Rings: Rajas/Strigoi
Back: Smilodon Mantle +1
Waist: Buccaneer's Belt
Legs: Hachiryu
Feet: Skadi
Chaos Roll 11 with DRK
Double Minuet
Coeurl Subs
Fighting Colibri

Archery DMG:
Normal - 363.75 to 371.25 = 367.5 AVG
WS - 2306 to 2352 = 2329 AVG

Marksmanship DMG:
Normal - 393 - 401 = 397 AVG
WS - 2252 - 2297 = 2274.5 AVG

Lets sub these numbers into the DPS formulas

Archery:
[6(Normal Dmg) + WS] / [6(Delay)+1)

= [6(367.5) + 2329] / [6(6.86)+1)

= 107.54 DPS

Marksmanship:

[5(Normal DMG) + WS] / [5(Delay)+1]

= [5(397) + 2274.5] / [5(8.08)+1]

= 102.89 DPS

Assuming you're using that gear fulltime, Ebow wins

in that case, velocity shot fails lol. If it doesn't affect all your delay (including time between shots).

Sux to be rng.

Well I forgot velocity shot, let me rework the totals