Hello, Would You Be Willing To Help Settle A Bet?

"I'm gunna let you finish but Airy Buckler says your wrong"
not at all, but it does say I misunderstood what you were saying. "26 or 25 if they are DWing" sounded like you were just listening two possible numbers of haste you could get while DW'ing but yo udidn't know which one you wanted, so you said 26 or 25, not that you were saying that they can get 26 normally and 25 when they are DW'ing.

Sentence structure, punctuation, ect, or people will easily misinterpret that.

Only if you assume I know nothing about dual weilding and considering I've already brought it up in this very thread...

As far as the acc goes, capped polearm merits gives 256 skill
68 base dex
My sam's build has +70 acc in gear, +24 dex, and +10 from hasso.

Tomoe/Pole/Empty/Black tathlum
Usu/PCA/Brutal/Minuet (or fowling)
Usu/Usu/Rajas/Toreador's
cuchulain's/vbelt/usu/usu

This puts me at 399 acc, 92% for lv 82 birds, capped acc for lv 81 birds


Capped dagger merits puts dnc at 272 dagger skill, hume base dex is 69
Dagger/Dagger/empty/Black Tathlum
Turban/Ancient Torque/Brutal/Suppa
Raparee/Dusk+1/Toreador/Toreador (and would rly want rajas here, but this is just for my example)
Cuch/Vbelt/Shantoto acc 7 haste 3/Dusk+1

+39 acc in gear, +15 closed position (even though you're not going to get it fulltime in merit pt, will give it the benefit of the doubt here), +9 dex from gear, + 22 from job trait
This puts dnc at 379 acc, 82% hitrate on lv 82 birds, and 85% hitrate on lv 81 birds

Even dropping raparee for 10 acc 5 dex 3% DW body, that puts you at 392 acc, 88% on lv 82 birds, 92% on lv 81 birds.


Drop from Tor/Tor to Rajas/Tor (for the 5stp), drop the illusion of getting fulltime closed position, go from ancient torque to pcc or love torque, ect you see where i'm going w/ this.

No

No, because the number of attacks is directly proportional to the percentage damage dealt. For sake of simplicity:

100 attacks + 40% double attack = 140 attacks

140 - 100 = 40 extra attacks

lets say again for simplicity:

each attack is equal to 100 dmg, so 100 attacks = 10,000dmg

10,000 dmg + 40% double attack = 14,000 total dmg

14,000 - 10,000 = 4000 extra dmg

4,000/10,000 = .4 or 40% dmg increase

The point is the percentage double attack added will always be directly proportional to the increase in dmg. 10% double attack is 10% increase in DoT, 20% double attack is 20% increase in DoT. That is the definition of constant returns. X unit of input is equal to X unit of output.

Yeah well your pretty damn lucky to be rocking full Usu and even then your pretty much sacrificing haste for acc. Down to only 19 with that.

Also you can get another dex out of relic back on dnc. Most dncs will be mainhanding azoth for another 4 acc. Couild get another acc dagger too but well bone knife+1 I think is the next best one lol

And if it would help and a dnc was willing to drop down some haste or +DW they could do like you. They could use one of those acc earrings. Hell forget the DW just drop rapp and dusk feet for relic feet and sure ACP puts them down to 18 gear haste but +8% DW so pretty close to your sam and adds 15acc and 9 dex.

So really if you wanna do that that another 19acc and 10 dex. enough to put them above sam in acc by 4 or 7-8 if they put on fowling earring lol. And hell sacrificing haste for acc well and some other stats works for you why not a dnc? Hell ACP body isn't that big of a sacrifice.

Also a dnc being a dnc can and probably will throw on a step at the start of a fight and might as well make it quick though doubt many more will go on so 8 evasion gone... effectively the same as adding 8 acc... you can see where I'm going with this.

Not to mention you yourself said your not capped even with full merits and full usu among other things so I'd guess your probably eatting pizza to cap? Well even at full haste dnc is still close enough for pizza to cap them as the gap between the 2 jobs even comparing a full hasted one with one only 18% hasted was only 20.

And really the acc difference from ancient to PCC to love torque is kinda small for 1 handers. 11 to 10 to 9.5 seriously big whoop.

That's not what either of them meant (I hope). Yes you get the same amount back each time. However the % change in dot is going down because you had more attacks to start with as you add double attack while only adding the same amount for a given +double attack. Well until you get to the cap anyways.

I know what he is trying to convey, I've had this same discussion ad nauseum on Allakhazam's boards. He's referring to the percentage change increase going down from say one tier of double attack to the next tier of double attack. If you are taking the sum of the first and second tier, and compare it to the relative increase of say the third tier it appears to be a smaller percentage of the whole because the base amount is always going up (thus you're comparing the same percentage increase in double attack to a larger and larger sum). That relationship is called the RELATIVE RETURN and does NOT fall into the definition of decreasing returns. So please, this myth about double attack being an example of decreasing returns needs to stop.

Yes i went with a taru dancer fully merrited up to colibris. His PK was hitting for 1400-1700 every time. And he was spamming it with the help of reverse flourishes. It all depends on the dnc and there gear.

It makes 0 diff what the TOTAL is.

If you ARE USING BRUTAL EARRING

and then USE SABER DANCE

Then you compare the damage you deal with brutal to the damage you deal w/ brutal + saber dance. This isn't compared to the increase from NEITHER BRUTAL OR SABER.

If you fulltime brutal, then the addition of saberdance introduces a 38% increase, not a 40%.
I call BS on this. He was either doing high damage or spamming. He wasn't doing both. Building flourish is what gets the WS damage that high and it shares the same recast as reverse flourish. Not able to do both so you can't "spam" damage that high.
Well, still 29 w/ hasso, and not rly sacrificing much. Considering I don't have or won't ever have dusk+1, and I NEED usu shoes for 5hit (so rules out the ability to swap to fuma),
Turban/dusk/vbelt/haidate/usu = 21 Only drop 2 haste to get all that acc.

Quote.Abrupt =

"I know this was pages ago, but I'm quoting it because it best demonstrates your lack of understanding, which you're still arguing about.

DA is constant returns to DoT when you're discussing the total value. 40% is 40% is 40%. Yes.

DA is not constant returns when you are discussing adding additional DA value.

In case the above didn't make it clear, I'll reiterate again - adding more double attack, returns less and less for the units of DA you're adding. The total DA value of course will be constant.

0 DA -> 5 DA = 5% increase
5 DA -> 10 DA = 4.76% increase
10 DA -> 15 DA = 4.5% increase
15 DA -> 20 DA = 4.34% increase

The total increase of 20 DA is yes, 20%. But we're not talking about the total. We're talking about what was added. Nobody here is discussing whether your total DA output magically starts outputting wacky numbers, because that's stupid."

(Note: Quotes don't seem to be working)


Please try to keep up with the thread. I already addressed your example that you posted two posts up. That % increase is called the relative return. Why is it called that? Because you are taking the actual return and dividing it by the result of the previous tier instead of the base number which you started with. One of my BA degrees is in Business, trust me when I say this is not how the rest of the world defines diminishing returns. This is also why I said several pages ago, that some people immediately understand when I explain it to them but MOST people do not. You will be laughed out of any economics classroom trying to tell a professor that double attack is an example of diminishing returns.

It doesn't matter what the term is called. Who gives a ***?

You know the point, we've beat it to the ground. We can call it relative return, who gives a ***? The point is, w/e you want to call it, is only +38% when you have brutal, and is less of an increase than a hasso user gets from hasso.

Regardless of your semantics, his point is correct. This comes up time and time again on many forums: this may not strictly be decreasing returns.

However, DA DOES become less valuable per unit added as you add more, so its value DOES decrease. While it may not be decreasing returns in its strictest form, in the end you can only argue semantics.

Speaking of BA degrees, who would figure someone w/ a BA degree couldn't grasp such a simple conecept

Its not even a question of semantics, its a straight out flaw in understanding economics and simple algebraic rules. People seriously need to educate themselves and do their own research instead of holding onto erroneous ideas.

You're ignoring the point totally though. We're not arguing the title or what we want to call it, we're arguing the actual effect of what adding DA does, which you can't seem to take your head out of your, err nvm I'll keep it civil, but you are arguing a point that has nothing to do with anything but vocabulary words.

Relative returns does not adequately describe the relationship in such a way as to succinctly describe the relationships involved and saying it in full is long-winded and annoying. Maintaining strict semantics in an environment where the definitions we've presented are accepted terminology is simply being pedantic.

This is not an economics class. This is not a business meeting. This is FFXI and these are the terms we use and how they are used. For our purposes the description is sufficient and reasonable.

New damage/Old damage = % increase

OLD damage: 100 attack rounds, 5% da, 1 damage per hit

1.05 x 100 x 1 = 105 damage dealt

New Damage: 100 attack rounds, 5% da + saber dance = average of 45% DA, 1 dmg per hit

1.45 x 100 x 1 = 145 damage dealt

145/105 = 38.09% increase

If you disagree, you're wrong, period.

Didn't read whole topic yet, but is that math the same way that haste works, Vegetto?

The DA math? No.

Not exactly sure as to what you're asking me, could you reword that?

OH YES, because we're doing important work on wall street, right?


good god.

Nah, Haste is the opposite of that, what is normally called "increasing returns". It works like this for the same reasons though, and that is because:

Double Attack increases number of hits, so 1% becomes proportionately less each time as you go 100 hits out of 100, 105 hits out of 100, etc.

Haste decreases delay, so 1% becomes proportionately larger each time as you go 100 hits in the time of 100, 95 hits in the time of 100 etc. This obviously doesn't work as cleanly as DA when described like this, but it's the general idea.

Anything that decreases anything generally yields a greater return per further unit invested. Anything which increases, the opposite.

Sorry, little groggy today.

I've heard the DA and Haste work differently, but never understood how if 1 double attack = 1 more round per 100, and 1 haste = one more round per hundred.

Basically, does haste also follow that general method you just posted for double attack or does it follow a different one since you're actually taking away delay, whereas double attack is just adding hits?

No. Haste can be calculated with

(newhaste-oldhaste)/(1-newhaste)

Where each Haste value is expressed as a decimal.

EDIT:This basically.

Question of semantics indeed, given your argument is over the definition of a word.

While your definition of what is and is not "Diminishing returns" is correct, your point posting isn't. Double Attack (Triple attack as well) has less bang for buck the more you get; simple math or even more convenient for most, a parser, can show this.

Though, depending on how you want to peer at the situation, the economic laws of diminishing returns could apply... Kinda, I guess.

More input of double attack (Brutal, Saber) while holding other inputs static (Character values of some sort, be it a soft/hard DA cap) producing a lesser value... Applicable.. Kinda, but economic law for a something more akin to a mechanical device (for lack of a better analogy) would be bad practice.

To answer the OP again though: No, DNC can not DD reliably on most fields.

Haste isn't adding extra hits like DA, as Raen explained, it lowers your delay. So no, it doesn't work the same.

For example, let's say our delay is 100 and we add 1% haste, that means 99% of your original delay is still there
100 x .99 = 99 delay. Which is a 1.0101010101% increase, but now let's say you have

100 delay and 1% haste (99 delay), but increase to 2% haste

100 x .98 = 98 delay

1/(new delay/old delay) = % increase
1/(98/99) = 1.010204082% increase

The lower hsate we get though the higher the increase. For example, going from 60% haste to 61 leaves us with 40 and 39 delay

1/(39/40) = 2.56% increase.

As you can see, the more haste you have, the more of an increase you gain from adding another percent.

Pretty much. If it helps you think about it, consider an 100 delay weapon. 1% Haste would reduce this to 99 delay, 3% Haste would reduce this to 97 delay, right? So each 1% Haste reduces by 1 delay. When you're considering the gain in attack speed, you use

1 delay (the amount you're reducing by per point of haste) divided by the new Haste value (so 1/99, 1/98, 1/97 etc...). You'll notice the numbers becomes steadily larger.

Adding 1 DA which is like adding one extra hit out of 100 becomes 1/100, 1/101, 1/102... getting smaller and smaller.

So 1% Haste gradually yields more of an impact whereas 1% DA gradually yields less of an impact.

Ah, thanks guys, makes it a lot easier to understand.