It's That Time Again!

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It's that time again!
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2021-01-06 13:45:05  
It's very hard to tell an afk person from a bot by logs alone.

If I was SE, I would automatically assume that the afk person is part of the bot system, even they are not remotely together (by IP or payment method), because the afk person is benefiting from the same bot party. Even if it was a "legit" transaction of the afk person buying CP from the bot party, but I (as SE) wouldn't know that just by looking at the logs during the event in question.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-01-06 13:46:57  
Exactly, it's bannable to benefit from cheaters, it's the enforcement part of that statement that is inconsistent.

So they are supposed to "ban by association" they're also supposed to ban people in general but we all know they don't really put much effort into it. So "it is what it is".
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By Pantafernando 2021-01-06 13:48:10  
Ow ***

Did they find me... again???
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2021-01-06 13:49:10  
I don't think it's bannable to benefit from cheaters. That's a gray line.

Where in the SE Rules and stuff does it say that it's bannable to benefit from cheaters?
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-01-06 13:54:21  
2.2 with the power leveling is vague enough to cover it

2.2 Real Money Trading, Farming and Power-Leveling. You may not sell, purchase or exchange for real-world money or value any in-game currency, accounts, characters, in-game services, or in-game virtual items. You may not play the Game for the purpose of acquiring virtual items or advancement in game play on behalf of a third-party or for the purpose of selling any virtual assets to a third party for real-world money, specifically including “gold-farming” and power-leveling services.

And it still bares repeating that *they don't need to be consistent, or define anything, because they are the sole enforcers of any rule they feel like enforcing, even ones that currently do not exist*
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By Pantafernando 2021-01-06 13:57:03  
This particular underlined text sound more directed to the seller and not the buyer
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By 2021-01-06 13:58:36
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 Leviathan.Andret
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By Leviathan.Andret 2021-01-06 14:32:31  
Is this permanent or just a couple days? I mean getting permanently banned because you hang around isn't really fair.
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By Mattelot 2021-01-06 14:43:09  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
It's a big "open ended" topic.

If someone reported 6 bots, and they actually looked and saw it was 5 bots and one legit afk... sometimes******** the afk person gets got too.

There are human mistakes but not idiotic precedents.

When I played WoW, they had a program where if you recruited a friend, you could give one of your alts a level for every so many levels your recruited friend earned. I did this and was sitting in an Inn giving my alt those free levels one at a time. Was maybe 30 min later, I got banned for "power leveling" after a few people who saw it happen reported me. It was quickly overturned as a rookie mistake.


Leviathan.Andret said: »
Is this permanent or just a couple days? I mean getting permanently banned because you hang around isn't really fair.

Permanent bans are usually for people who repeat serious offenses. Permanent bans for small first time things or association is idiotic. Doesn't matter how you try to rationalize it.
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By Pantafernando 2021-01-06 15:36:42  
Im still alive.

Gonna live to see another day
 Asura.Tsm
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By Asura.Tsm 2021-01-06 16:10:38  
Mattelot said: »
That doesn't even make sense. Accountability by association is idiotic and I while many employees of their company are incompetent, I doubt they would allow idiots to take direct action over customers.
someone benefitting directly from bots should be banned. not sure why you'd argue otherwise lol
 
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By Mattelot 2021-01-07 06:46:24  
Asura.Tsm said: »
Mattelot said: »
That doesn't even make sense. Accountability by association is idiotic and I while many employees of their company are incompetent, I doubt they would allow idiots to take direct action over customers.
someone benefitting directly from bots should be banned. not sure why you'd argue otherwise lol

A guy in a CP party with a multiboxer who bots is directly benefiting. The guy may not even know the person is botting. Thus by your logic, he deserves to be banned.

A person buying Alex from one of the Alex bots directly benefits from it. Thus, that buyer should be banned too.

So no... no they shouldn't. Ban the actual account doing it.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-01-07 07:40:18  
I go full scorched earth. You buy you die. Zero difference to me whether you do it or you benefit from it.

Luckily for everyone I have no say in it lol.
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By Shichishito 2021-01-07 07:43:07  
Cpu said: »
All 7 characters got hit this morning, including the bank character that only uses Windower/GM Flag/Gearswap. I guess maybe they'll flag you as guilty by association for your IP and/or payment details. The rest of them were basically on fulltime 200% movement speed outside of town so not exactly a surprise.
and i thought SE doesn't do such acts of virtue anymore.


not sure why some are strictly against ban by association. there are examples where it's a gray line and SE should give the benefit of the doubt. however there are definitely instances where it's 100% justified, Cpu beeing one of them. another one would be to pay for one of those job point parties.
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By Mattelot 2021-01-07 07:54:53  
Shichishito said: »
another one would be to pay for one of those job point parties.

While I still roll my eyes at the idea of paying for job point parties, I wouldn't say the person should be banned for it. Don't ask/don't tell if the service provider is botting or not. I love steak but don't want to meet the cow.

People sell stuff on garage sale sites all the time. I'm sure several things were stolen. If you buy something and were not aware it was stolen, you are protected but if you buy something knowing its stolen, you can be held accountable too. That's not association, you're contributing directly to the crime knowingly.
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By Shichishito 2021-01-07 08:26:39  
association is not enough reason to convict someone but it's still a good indication to take a closer look. however i agree, the deciding factor is wether or not the person knew he took advantage of someone elses cheats.


in the job point bot party case the only moment where one could give you the benefit of the doubt is when you are brand new to the game but there is no way you have the resources to join one of those right from the get go. at the point where you gathered enough gil you got annoyed several times by the same couple of shout bots. there is no way you miss that. some even shout the phrase "All time «Party»", doesn't get much more obvious than that.

there is the phrase "Ignorance is no excuse in law.".
i'm not sure what the law is where you live but i suspect even if you don't have to go to jail you still can't keep the stolen goods even if you didn't know they were stolen when you bought them.
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By Mattelot 2021-01-07 08:43:25  
You are absolutely correct about association. That's a good way to put it. It absolutely does make someone want to take a closer look. I speak of this as an auditor. There are certain clues that may not be nonconformances but will certainly make me want to investigate that area further.

Now, you see job point shouts but you can only assume they're bots. I see shouts for selling things often. I don't know if its a bot or someone every so often typing things out. Even if its a real person copying/pasting or hitting a shout macro, I wouldn't have a clue. We can assume or insinuate someone knew but that's not enough proof to hold someone accountable. That's where the "don't ask, don't tell" comes into play. If you knew for a fact that it was a bot, you're guilty however, it's up to SE to be able to prove that you knew.

Ignorance not being an excuse is for when someone commits a direct crime but was not aware of the legality surrounding it. Like if you moved to a town and were not aware it was illegal there to wear flip flops before June 1. You can still be cited even though you were clearly not out to create a disturbance or be disorderly.

Many stolen goods are never returned to the owners. I've bought a handful of things and for all I know, all of them were stolen but I wouldn't know. Even if the law stepped in, it's what can be proven.
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By Rips 2021-01-07 08:57:44  
Do they really look into IP addresses? Or just logs?

Asking for a friend.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2021-01-07 09:18:34  
There are some things that are obvious for the buyer (CP parties, Ambu VD sells) that the party they are joining is a bot party.

But there are also some things that aren't obvious for the buyer (W3 sells, Aeonics) that they party they are joining is a bot or not.

But it's not SE's job to differentiate the two. They see 4-5 accounts being automated and can safely assume that everyone in the party is automated or directly benefiting from said automation, and toss down the hammer completely.

In other words: Buyer beware.
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By Pantafernando 2021-01-07 09:20:50  
Rips said: »
Do they really look into IP addresses? Or just logs?

Asking for a friend.

I think i read the client dont send chat log info to server so you shouldnt be banneble because chat.
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By Masunasu 2021-01-07 10:18:55  
Pantafernando said: »
Rips said: »
Do they really look into IP addresses? Or just logs?

Asking for a friend.

I think i read the client dont send chat log info to server so you shouldnt be banneble because chat.

The server has chat log information so anything you say/receive in normal channels (says, tell, yell, etc.) would be logged, because it needs to flow through the server to leave/reach the player.

What isn't logged by the server is client side modifications, so things like Battlemod, or if you windower.add_to_chat("I'm cheating."). Those things get logged to a local file on your computer, but the server doesn't see that file because it has no reason to believe it needs to. The server builds its own file based on what info it's sending to you and what it thinks that would look like to a vanilla client.
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 Shiva.Thorny
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By Shiva.Thorny 2021-01-07 10:47:19  
Masunasu said: »
The server has chat log information so anything you say/receive in normal channels (says, tell, yell, etc.) would be logged, because it needs to flow through the server to leave/reach the player.

What isn't logged by the server is client side modifications, so things like Battlemod, or if you windower.add_to_chat("I'm cheating."). Those things get logged to a local file on your computer, but the server doesn't see that file because it has no reason to believe it needs to. The server builds its own file based on what info it's sending to you and what it thinks that would look like to a vanilla client.
This is correct.

Rips said: »
Do they really look into IP addresses? Or just logs?

Asking for a friend.
Bans always go to every POL account on a square enix account, so if they are on the same account they'll all be hit no matter what. Note that each POL account has a seperate strike system, so for example:

SE Account 1:
POL Account Character 1 [no warnings]
POL Account Character 2 [72hr warning used]

If Character 1 OR Character 2 receive a strike, Character 1's POL account will get a 72 hour suspension and Character 2's POL account will be permabanned. If both qualify, the penalties don't double up. Standard auto-banner related shenanigans will almost always offer the 72hr before the perma for each POL account. SE does not typically investigate logs or IPs.

Some exceptions:
-Very new accounts may forfeit their 72hr ban and go straight to perma. What 'Very new' means has not been rigidly quantified, but it's likely tied to some form of progression and/or time elapsed. It's also possible that SE is more likely to assume a new account rapidly progressing is RMT-related, and that's the real cause of skipping the 72hr ban.

-RMT activity can trigger IP or payment method based bans. This is not guaranteed, but has happened in the past, primarily for the most aggregious offenders.

-RMT and exploit almost never give a 72hr ban, and go straight to perma.

-Log or party based bans have been used in the past for nyzulv2 speedhacking, salvage duping, and dyna-divergence clears that were dependant on POS/flee. They are not very common and I doubt it's happening to anyone with a basic autobanner style ban. It likely involves STF reports or GM calls where a human looks at it more than the rubber stamping process used for autobans.
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By Rips 2021-01-07 16:23:32  
Shiva.Thorny said: »
Masunasu said: »
The server has chat log information so anything you say/receive in normal channels (says, tell, yell, etc.) would be logged, because it needs to flow through the server to leave/reach the player.

What isn't logged by the server is client side modifications, so things like Battlemod, or if you windower.add_to_chat("I'm cheating."). Those things get logged to a local file on your computer, but the server doesn't see that file because it has no reason to believe it needs to. The server builds its own file based on what info it's sending to you and what it thinks that would look like to a vanilla client.
This is correct.

Rips said: »
Do they really look into IP addresses? Or just logs?

Asking for a friend.
Bans always go to every POL account on a square enix account, so if they are on the same account they'll all be hit no matter what. Note that each POL account has a seperate strike system, so for example:

SE Account 1:
POL Account Character 1 [no warnings]
POL Account Character 2 [72hr warning used]

If Character 1 OR Character 2 receive a strike, Character 1's POL account will get a 72 hour suspension and Character 2's POL account will be permabanned. If both qualify, the penalties don't double up. Standard auto-banner related shenanigans will almost always offer the 72hr before the perma for each POL account. SE does not typically investigate logs or IPs.

Some exceptions:
-Very new accounts may forfeit their 72hr ban and go straight to perma. What 'Very new' means has not been rigidly quantified, but it's likely tied to some form of progression and/or time elapsed. It's also possible that SE is more likely to assume a new account rapidly progressing is RMT-related, and that's the real cause of skipping the 72hr ban.

-RMT activity can trigger IP or payment method based bans. This is not guaranteed, but has happened in the past, primarily for the most aggregious offenders.

-RMT and exploit almost never give a 72hr ban, and go straight to perma.

-Log or party based bans have been used in the past for nyzulv2 speedhacking, salvage duping, and dyna-divergence clears that were dependant on POS/flee. They are not very common and I doubt it's happening to anyone with a basic autobanner style ban. It likely involves STF reports or GM calls where a human looks at it more than the rubber stamping process used for autobans.

This is going to sound silly to you, and most of you reading, as many of you have advanced knowledge in tech and I do not, but wouldn't a VPN just solve the IP issue as it changes your location every time?
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-01-07 16:25:21  
Yes, that's why most people doin shady stuff use a VPN

Changing IP is also what flags the i2501 error too i guess, so careful with that damn thing
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By Rips 2021-01-07 16:27:58  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Yes, that's why most people doin shady stuff use a VPN

Changing IP is also what flags the i2501 error too i guess, so careful with that damn thing

I see. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Good thing I'm just being a sucker and getting a few accounts to packed 99 mules to sell orbs.
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-01-07 16:30:15  
The i2501 is just annoying more than harmful. It's just a headsup, it can happen.
necroskull Necro Bump Detected! [85 days between previous and next post]
 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2021-04-02 15:09:08  
Ejin once again got the bonk.

All 5 alts perma, and the new main got temped.

Ain't that about a ***.

He's actively talking about it, though not really anything to say
https://www.twitch.tv/ejin_caitsith
 
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 Fenrir.Jinxs
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By Fenrir.Jinxs 2021-04-02 15:25:50  
What did he do to get banned?
And didn't someone make a plugin to randomize player names for streaming?
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