Sigurd's Descendants: The Art Of Dragon Slaying.

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Sigurd's Descendants: The Art of Dragon Slaying.
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 Asura.Veikur
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-12-02 17:37:11  
My favorite part in all of this is all of the talk about the current state of the games community in regards to DRG is coming from a guy who, apparently, isn't currently subbed.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 17:38:43  
So if you stop playing for 2 weeks you suddenly know nothing about the game? uh huh.

My favourite part is the snide and pathetic comments like yours which is what always happens when people question people's autistic love for [insert undesired job].

Please attempt to refute a single point I have made, none of which are "DRG can be used in situations where any DD can be in that slot".
 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 17:39:28  
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
If you haven't actually looked at the game situation post-patch, you don't really have any arguments to stand on.
I was around for a bit but not the last 2 weeks. Nothing had changed really, except for MNK being much more desired and requested.

You haven't really provided any arguments either, other than "we take DRG to content which could use any DD in that slot" which does nothing to refute any of the points I have made.
Your point is nonsense, because NONE of the heavy DDs are favored over the other currently in the majority of shout or non-shout content. I haven't seen a shout specifically asking for WAR/SAM/DRK but not DRG in weeks.

The whole concept of "content which could use any DD in that slot" is the whole point; the 5 top DDs are now treated as interchangeable in 95% of content in terms of desirability.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 17:41:08  
In what content is DRG desired over other DDs? I can and have provided examples where other DDs are specifically sought, and when we cover Ambuscade that will also make it blatantly obvious.

DirectX said: »
Please attempt to refute a single point I have made, none of which are "DRG can be used in situations where any DD can be in that slot".
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 17:42:46  
I already gave you an example on a previous page, but you apparently ignored it. It's not like there is content where people specifically favor DRK, either, so it's a meaningless criteria when on the topic of DD viability or popularity.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 17:46:16  
DRK can spam solo Light with their strongest WS, I think there are quite a few Ambus where that makes DRK highly desirable. I would say Omen is in the realm of WAR and SAM being best typically, zergs being WAR and DRK still the most desired, and then if you're talking Dynamis it only makes sense to talk of optimum set ups when you are in lower sized groups, when DRG has not been typically asked for.

When people first did it with 12 people it was WAR DRK only, what DRG has gained since the patch hasn't really changed it that much that it should have been this way even then, so why was it?
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 17:49:02  
DRK solo spamming Light is just straight DPS, which can be completely replicated with any of the other heavy DDs, and WAR zergs just as well or better than DRK. Omen is doable plenty well with all of the DD jobs, with DRG possibly even being best for Kin because of Target. There is not a single piece of content in the game where people specifically ask for DRK.

The patch HAS changed DRG a hell of a lot; I'm not sure why you think that just because it wasn't all that great in that case before means it's not the best DD in that case now. Beforehand a DRK/WAR/SAM could die a couple times in a wave 3 dynamis run and still beat a DRG; now the DRG would be able to basically keep up normally, and then greatly pull ahead every time jumps allow them to live while the other DD dies.
 Asura.Veikur
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-12-02 17:50:18  
DirectX said: »
So if you stop playing for 2 weeks you suddenly know nothing about the game? uh huh.
Apparently so.

The only point you're actually continuously making is the the player base are idiots.

Congratulations, they've been idiots since release. There's no reason to use them as indicators of a jobs viability.
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-12-02 17:53:08  
Also, how the *** is a ~25% overall damage buff not much of a change in a game where most BiS gear is edging out the next best option by ~1% or less
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 17:54:32  
I'm not talking about how great it is or isn't as a dealer of damage though. My initial point was just to say that I was sad to see that it feels like MNK got a much better deal with the patch. My other points are;

1. Cannot think of any specific fights where it is optimal to build around a DRG, where there are definite examples for WAR SAM MNK. Please give some.

2. DRG is currently still not desired or asked for as much as WAR DRK SAM in my experience, this can be validated through LS recruitment threads and FFXIAH shouts.

3. Taking DRG in a slot that can be [insert literally any DD] does not mean it is optimal or more desired than WAR SAM DRK.

I have R15 Calad DRK and even I don't think that highly of DRK compared to WAR personally. I still feel safer on WAR despite admitting that this is probably just from being more experienced playing it.

I also as much or more reason than anyone here to want DRG to be more desired (particularly the "I levelled DRG because I had gear from other jobs" people which is the vast majority of DRGs) before idiots try and pull ***like "derr you just hate DRG".
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 17:55:48  
Asura.Veikur said: »
DirectX said: »
So if you stop playing for 2 weeks you suddenly know nothing about the game? uh huh.
Apparently so.

The only point you're actually continuously making is the the player base are idiots.

Congratulations, they've been idiots since release. There's no reason to use them as indicators of a jobs viability.
I have listed some of my points for you above. Please feel free to address them. Calling everyone idiots is just nonsense, the DD meta has always been logical really.

Asura.Veikur said: »
Also, how the *** is a ~25% overall damage buff not much of a change in a game where most BiS gear is edging out the next best option by ~1% or less
Are you saying DRG does 125% the damage it did pre-patch? Not sure I'm following you here.

Also: Calm the *** down. You're acting like I've insulted your mother with the rage in your tone.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 18:02:16  
DirectX said: »
1. Cannot think of any specific fights where it is optimal to build around a DRG, where there are definite examples for WAR SAM MNK. Please give some.
I gave you one; Dynamis Wave 3 clear when you're trying to squeeze out as much Wave 1/2 kills as possible OR your group isn't good enough to have lots of spare time after Wave 3 boss kill.

DirectX said: »
2. DRG is currently still not desired or asked for as much as WAR DRK SAM in my experience, this can be validated through LS recruitment threads and FFXIAH shouts.
I don't see anyone specifically asking for those three in 99% of shouts either, so they're equal on that account. I don't know about recruitment threads, but I put much more stock into what people are actually shouting for and accepting in groups in-game.

DirectX said: »
3. Taking DRG in a slot that can be [insert literally any DD] does not mean it is optimal or more desired than WAR SAM DRK.
It's not supposed to be more desired than those three, just on par, which it is.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 18:05:29  
DirectX said: »
Are you saying DRG does 125% the damage it did pre-patch? Not sure I'm following you here.
If a DRG had say, a 20%/80% spread for white damage vs WS damage, the update increased DRG's damage by 26.11% from pre-patch (barring occasions where you hit 99999).

With a 25%/75% spread, it's a 23.25% increase.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 18:06:15  
Asura.Geriond said: »
I gave you one; Dynamis Wave 3 clear when you're trying to squeeze out as much Wave 1/2 kills as possible OR your group isn't good enough to have lots of spare time after Wave 3 boss kill.
You'll have to explain this one more, sorry. DRG helps kill speed because?

Also on the issue of wave 3 mobs 1-shotting you with a WS therefore avoiding death saves you - if hate is not on a tank then the mob will just turn to the next DD and floor it? Assuming you can even jump it to lose hate in time to avoid being killed by it. At best jumps are going to save you from death only a fraction of the times you try and use it to avoid death, and if it kills another DD then anyway it does nothing to save time.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 18:07:46  
Asura.Geriond said: »
It's not supposed to be more desired than those three, just on par, which it is.
So it's fine for there to be loads of content where SAM is optimal and ideal, same for WAR and MNK, but not DRG? I mean, sure, ok, but I personally would like there to be something for DRG so there was more reason to play it.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 18:09:10  
You don't have to react with jumps; you can do them pre-emptively and save yourself basically every time, since you don't need to have hate for the enmity shed to work. High Jump and Super Jumps' cooldowns are low enough to use them at around 50% on every T3 NM, the ones that actually kill DDs that pull hate.

You not jumping vs jumping isn't going to affect whether another party member dies or not, just whether or not you personally live.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 18:09:51  
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
It's not supposed to be more desired than those three, just on par, which it is.
So it's fine for there to be loads of content where SAM is optimal and ideal, same for WAR and MNK, but not DRG? I mean, sure, ok, but I personally would like there to be something for DRG so there was more reason to play it.
There isn't "loads" for them, only a very few niche fights, all of which can be done using other strategies and jobs. And again, I've given you one for DRG, which is more than DRK has.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 18:11:40  
Asura.Geriond said: »
You not jumping vs jumping isn't going to affect whether another party member dies or not, just whether or not you live.
So if a DD is going to die either way, what is the actual benefit?

Also, saving High Jump to try and avoid death and not using it strategically for DPS would hurt DPS.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 18:12:07  
Asura.Geriond said: »
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
It's not supposed to be more desired than those three, just on par, which it is.
So it's fine for there to be loads of content where SAM is optimal and ideal, same for WAR and MNK, but not DRG? I mean, sure, ok, but I personally would like there to be something for DRG so there was more reason to play it.
There isn't "loads" for them, only a very few niche fights, all of which can be done using other strategies and jobs. And again, I've given you one for DRG.
I've asked you to explain it better, please do.

I also disagree, there is a lot of stuff where SAM is by clear the best job to use. I am talking in optimal set ups where optimisation is needed, not max # chars etc.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 18:13:09  
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
You not jumping vs jumping isn't going to affect whether another party member dies or not, just whether or not you live.
So if a DD is going to die either way, what is the actual benefit?

Also, saving High Jump to try and avoid death and not using it strategically for DPS would hurt DPS.
The benefit is that the DRG lives, instead of BOTH DDs dying. The mob doesn't have a quota of DD kills before it goes back to the tank.

High Jump has very little benefit for pure DPS, and it saving your life (and importantly, your buffs) is a MUCH bigger benefit over time.
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-12-02 18:15:10  
I mean, if you're going to ignore everyone pointing out Wave 3 Dynamis, sure, DRG doesn't have specific content where it's 'THE BEST'.

But let's look at the others.

DRK - There isn't a specific fight or content in the game where I'd exclusively build around a DRK over any other melee.

WAR - MS Zerging is barely stronger than Conduit Zerging and more gear/buff dependant. So that's.. not exactly a strong argument to be made for exclusively building around WAR. You'd also be missing out on Angon/Ageha if WAR is the exclusive melee DPS.

SAM - Kei, if you really want to melee it, due to obscene TP generation. Funnily enough, DRG is probably pretty competitive for this niche as well.

MNK - Qutrub Ambuscade, in which NIN/DNC/THF/BLU are reasonable substitutions. Subtle Blow party compositions. That's about it.

Man, look at all these super relevant situations in which the other 4 heavy melee's just TROUNCE the others to the point that you should be building exclusively around them.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 18:15:13  
If you drop down all of the Ambu V1 VD fight strats on BG Wiki DRG is not mentioned once lol, SAM WAR DRK THF BLU RUN (as DD and DD/tank) yep.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 18:15:42  
DirectX said: »
If you drop down all of the Ambu V1 VD fight strats on BG Wiki DRG is not mentioned once lol, SAM WAR DRK THF BLU RUN (as DD and DD/tank) yep.
Yes, because they were all written back when DRG did subpar damage. No one went back to rewrite them when DRGs got buffed.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 18:16:23  
Asura.Geriond said: »
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
You not jumping vs jumping isn't going to affect whether another party member dies or not, just whether or not you live.
So if a DD is going to die either way, what is the actual benefit?

Also, saving High Jump to try and avoid death and not using it strategically for DPS would hurt DPS.
The benefit is that the DRG lives, instead of BOTH DDs dying. The mob doesn't have a quota of DD kills before it goes back to the tank.
Why would both DD necessarily die? This is some serious theory crafting. It would go back to the tank at least some of the time, though we'd both be guessing on %.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 18:18:26  
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
You not jumping vs jumping isn't going to affect whether another party member dies or not, just whether or not you live.
So if a DD is going to die either way, what is the actual benefit?

Also, saving High Jump to try and avoid death and not using it strategically for DPS would hurt DPS.
The benefit is that the DRG lives, instead of BOTH DDs dying. The mob doesn't have a quota of DD kills before it goes back to the tank.
Why would both DD necessarily die? This is some serious theory crafting. It would go back to the tank at least some of the time, though we'd both be guessing on %.
Both DDs would die because, if they are equally good at DDing, they'd have similar hate and pull hate off the tank at similar times unless they're a DRG that shed their hate instead. At that point, a good portion of the time the non-DRG is going to take a 3k+ WS to the face (often with PDT) and die, causing them to have to wait for weakness and get rebuffed before they're back up to speed.

A DRG avoiding dying due to shedding hate does not "pass on" the death to another DD.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 18:20:55  
Asura.Veikur said: »
I mean, if you're going to ignore everyone pointing out Wave 3 Dynamis, sure, DRG doesn't have specific content where it's 'THE BEST'.

But let's look at the others.

DRK - There isn't a specific fight or content in the game where I'd exclusively build around a DRK over any other melee.

WAR - MS Zerging is barely stronger than Conduit Zerging and more gear/buff dependant. So that's.. not exactly a strong argument to be made for exclusively building around WAR. You'd also be missing out on Angon/Ageha if WAR is the exclusive melee DPS.

SAM - Kei, if you really want to melee it, due to obscene TP generation. Funnily enough, DRG is probably pretty competitive for this niche as well.

MNK - Qutrub Ambuscade, in which NIN/DNC/THF/BLU are reasonable substitutions. Subtle Blow party compositions. That's about it.

Man, look at all these super relevant situations in which the other 4 heavy melee's just TROUNCE the others to the point that you should be building exclusively around them.
I'm not ignoring it, I just don't think it is sufficiently argued to accept it.

DRK - I agree, although I would still think WAR+DRK or DRK+DRK is better for, for example Kin, and I would also still think DRK is a better choice for Gin than DRG.

WAR - I agree on SMN burn, that is true. If you don't have SMNs but do have DDs then it matters though. Also while DRG can probably do Gin I doubt it is easier/safer/faster than being WAR. I have seen many times a WAR solo DD/tank Ou also, good luck doing that on DRG.

SAM - Kei is best as RUN SCH GEO RNG technically, but after that SAM definitely is better than DRG, so is RUN or even NIN IMO. SAM can DD/tank Kyou even and other things. Ofc exceptional where SC helps too.

MNK - Better for Omen generally. Better for a number of Ambuscades, e.g. Moogle with 1 MNK and support, good luck doing that on DRG.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 18:22:54  
Asura.Geriond said: »
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
You not jumping vs jumping isn't going to affect whether another party member dies or not, just whether or not you live.
So if a DD is going to die either way, what is the actual benefit?

Also, saving High Jump to try and avoid death and not using it strategically for DPS would hurt DPS.
The benefit is that the DRG lives, instead of BOTH DDs dying. The mob doesn't have a quota of DD kills before it goes back to the tank.
Why would both DD necessarily die? This is some serious theory crafting. It would go back to the tank at least some of the time, though we'd both be guessing on %.
Both DDs would die because, if they are equally good at DDing, they'd have similar hate and pull hate off the tank at similar times unless they're a DRG that shed their hate instead. At that point, a good portion of the time the non-DRG is going to take a 3k+ WS to the face (often with PDT) and die, causing them to have to wait for weakness and get rebuffed before they're back up to speed.

A DRG avoiding dying due to shedding hate does not "pass on" the death to another DD.
You mean specifically when the T3 mob is using a skillchain? i.e. repeated WS? Otherwise I don't know how you can say 100% of the time a T3 NM uses WS the tank would die. Anyway, have done plenty of Dyna where the tank holds hate and they die fast anyway. The chances where this makes any kind of noticeable speed increase seems so incredibly slim that if this is the best argument for DRG, then well...
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 18:23:05  
DRG can solo DD/tank stuff like Ou with absolutely no problem, and you can do stuff like Moogle with DRG and support as well. You're overestimating how different the DDs are in terms of these situations.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 18:25:35  
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
You not jumping vs jumping isn't going to affect whether another party member dies or not, just whether or not you live.
So if a DD is going to die either way, what is the actual benefit?

Also, saving High Jump to try and avoid death and not using it strategically for DPS would hurt DPS.
The benefit is that the DRG lives, instead of BOTH DDs dying. The mob doesn't have a quota of DD kills before it goes back to the tank.
Why would both DD necessarily die? This is some serious theory crafting. It would go back to the tank at least some of the time, though we'd both be guessing on %.
Both DDs would die because, if they are equally good at DDing, they'd have similar hate and pull hate off the tank at similar times unless they're a DRG that shed their hate instead. At that point, a good portion of the time the non-DRG is going to take a 3k+ WS to the face (often with PDT) and die, causing them to have to wait for weakness and get rebuffed before they're back up to speed.

A DRG avoiding dying due to shedding hate does not "pass on" the death to another DD.
You mean specifically when the T3 mob is using a skillchain? i.e. repeated WS? Otherwise I don't know how you can say 100% of the time a T3 NM uses WS the tank would die. Anyway, have done plenty of Dyna where the tank holds hate and they die fast anyway. The chances where this makes any kind of noticeable speed increase seems so incredibly slim that if this is the best argument for DRG, then well...
I'm talking about DDs dying, not the tank.

Situation 1: Tank, WAR, SAM
Tank loses hate on wave 3 NM at about 50% to WAR and SAM, which then proceeds to kill the WAR and SAM with 3k WSs. You now have 2 dead DDs which have to wait for weakness and buffs before they can DD properly again.

Situation 2: Tank, WAR, DRG
Tank loses hate on wave 3 NM at about 50% to the WAR, and then proceeds to kill the WAR with a 3k WS. The DRG never pulls hate and thus survives, giving it 3+ minutes of DPS the SAM in the other situation wouldn't have.

The more DRGs you have, the less DDs die on wave 3 to pulling hate on NMs, and this often happening several times in a run gives DRG a large advantage over the whole run.
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By Asura.Veikur 2019-12-02 18:25:42  
DirectX said: »
Also: Calm the *** down. You're acting like I've insulted your mother with the rage in your tone.
Nah, more flabbergasted at stupid of a comment that was.

DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
You not jumping vs jumping isn't going to affect whether another party member dies or not, just whether or not you live.
Also, saving High Jump to try and avoid death and not using it strategically for DPS would hurt DPS.
High Jump, when used under heavy buffs, is a very minor DPS gain due to JA lock and no extraneous damage modifiers.

Other jumps are absolutely gains though. Jump having a 1+VIT/256 multiplier, Soul/Spirit Jump auto critting and having multiplied TP returns.

Ryunohige DRG being an exception.
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