Sigurd's Descendants: The Art Of Dragon Slaying.

言語: JP EN DE FR
2010-06-21
New Items
users online
フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Dragoon » Sigurd's Descendants: The Art of Dragon Slaying.
Sigurd's Descendants: The Art of Dragon Slaying.
First Page 2 3 ... 90 91 92 ... 97 98 99
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 8051
By Asura.Saevel 2019-12-02 08:12:36  
Asura.Friedrik said: »
Definitely. Since the update I have never been blown out by any of the big 3. If I don't win the parse it's very, very close excluding situations where the rat dies or gets charmed away... other DRGs I've played with at similar gear levels perform the same. People sleep on DRG's WS frequency, and gaining a 1.31 multiplier to every hit of our WS overnight was huge.

In terms of pure damage output, WAR/SAM/DRK/DRG/MNK are all in the same tier now with situational differences favoring one over the other. WAR's have high defense, turns enemy hate into player damage, weapon type versatility and share their spike damage buffs (Warcry/Blood Rage) with the other DD's in the party. SAM's have a wide variety of SC options, deal increased SC damage and have a few tricks up their sleeves. Dark Knights, while being prone to taking increases damage, can buff their HP to 5K+ to compensate and have the highest attack cap in the game. DRG and MNK recently got bumped to this tier, DRG from the one below it while MNK from the very bottom of the pile. DRG has high damage coupled with the ability to rapidly shed hate, MNK's have high damage, a ton of HP and the ability to limit the enemies TP gain in certain situations.

Overall I'm happy with the way things are working out, nobody is overwhelmingly "the best" while still preserving differences.
[+]
Offline
Posts: 264
By Ozaii 2019-12-02 08:22:35  
On shiva alot of people look for dd. However they Don't turn down drg though. simply due to the fact its just another dd. Except when it pulls hate it can immediatly dump hate. Considering it can dd with the best of them. They are all dd really in the end. And only one that is different is monk because its got hp for days and malignance access. I am guessing you are speaking from asura perspective?

DirectX said: »
SAM has AF and relic hands +3 etc. that have pdt and are fine to melee in. I'm not personally that much of a fan of SAM for Dyna though.

I've never seen pick up or linkshells ever look for DRG or insist someone come as DRG over WAR DRK SAM, nor MNK but I've not been playing recently except for the free week.

THF and DNC are also fine jobs with perks but noone takes them for DD either. Also never seen a BLU asked for or inside a Dyna run except hearing they can be used to aoe mobs to death.
 Asura.Sirris
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Safiyyah
Posts: 564
By Asura.Sirris 2019-12-02 11:27:38  
DirectX said: »
Noone said wave 3 mobs aren't a threat though. For me, I just think if WAR or SAM can do the same amount of damage I feel like it's safer and easier to just hybrid gear on them, and seigan/TE for a second if I really need to. If you're not using High Jump to time TP build but saving it to shed hate and specific times then your damage suffers and Super Jump is only once every 3 minutes anyway, in reference to Wave 3 mobs that would be once every 4 mobs or something at best.

I don't know what I expected them to change or add, or what they could change or add now that would make DRG optimal for something. As much as you can sit on a forum and say DRG is fine for Dynamis, and it is, no linkshells are asking for them or asking people to go on DRG that have WAR DRK SAM or MNK, that is the real issue here. Not paper maths, but utility and desirability.

You aren't doing a very good job of making your case. You're actually making the case against yourself.

If WAR or SAM or DRK or MNK can do the same damage, but then pulls hate and has to revert to hybrid sets/Seigan/etc., the dragoon keeps going in his full TP gear and pulls ahead over the course of a long fight. Especially since it's not reliant on Warcry or Impetus to reach a high tier of damage. It's not comparable to something like dancer or thief, where the level of damage is much lower and so you're weighing utility versus sacrificing damage.

I love bringing dragoon for wave 3s and we 100% bring one, attendance and availability permitting. After rangers and corsairs with elemental WS it's the safest and most consistent heavy DD for that content, where even Volte WHMs are absolutely killer, like Savael said. I think the first time we brought DRG he led the parse among melee, and this was pre-buff?
[+]
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2019-12-02 11:34:36
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | 引用 | 返事
 
Post deleted by User.
Offline
Posts: 946
By Nariont 2019-12-02 11:39:34  
DirectX said: »
I've been 75 DRG3 since 2005 and that's never changed
That's just incorrect since for zergs drg angon was very wanted, and drgs were in a decent spot back then too, just because people only shout for the popular jobs doesnt suddenly mean the rest are worse
[+]
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2019-12-02 14:57:50
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | 引用 | 返事
 
Post deleted by User.
[+]
Offline
Posts: 3610
By SimonSes 2019-12-02 14:58:56  
DirectX said: »
My point is that noone actively seeks DRG for any content over other DDs. Nothing you write on a forum changes that reality. I've been 75 DRG since 2005 and that's never changed but forums are always the same - 1-2 people who either lead a linkshell and go whatever they want or people doing 18 man content with 18 people that let people come DRG out of kindness every now and then that pretend people are shouting for DRG all the time or telling people with other jobs to come as DRG.

Troll away but in game reality is what I'm talking about.

This is so wrong on so many levels...

Its not easy to take job from depths of lol stygma. Drg was not popular for a long time and the only way to rise its "wanted" status is exactly writing about its real value on forums. You think suddenly people will start to bandwagon a job because its actually good? No lol. You need to tell them how good is it. Bandwagoners never test new job to find new bandwagon. They wait for other people to figure it out for them. Since there is not many people playing DRG in endgame, there is not many people to start advertising the job.

Kinda different example, but Thibron was there for years and none was thinking about pairing it with Tizona. Even when I initially wrote how good it is, people were still sceptic. This is how hard is to change people mindset. People had believe that non ilvl weapon cant be good in end game and I needed hard evidence to break through that stereotype. DRG is in similar spot. None is shouting for it, because none belives its actually great and it will be like that until you prove it.
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2019-12-02 15:03:23
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | 引用 | 返事
 
Post deleted by User.
Offline
Posts: 3610
By SimonSes 2019-12-02 15:18:17  
DirectX said: »
Noone is using BLU as a melee for end game zergs either really

FTFY
Offline
Posts: 946
By Nariont 2019-12-02 15:22:57  
DirectX said: »
If you actually read my posts you'd very clearly see that I said exactly that. The problem is it's not desired, not that it's not good per se.

You said that was always the case, it wasnt, angon drgs were heavily desired, even pre zerg everything in 30~45 seconds you could keep def down on a boss usung 2 drgs barring some kind of erase, and back then all you had was angon/dia1-3/frightful roar, was also bolts but gl landing those.
 Asura.Reichleiu
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Reichleiu
Posts: 414
By Asura.Reichleiu 2019-12-02 15:26:53  
Nariont said: »
DirectX said: »
If you actually read my posts you'd very clearly see that I said exactly that. The problem is it's not desired, not that it's not good per se.

You said that was always the case, it wasnt, angon drgs were heavily desired, even pre zerg everything in 30~45 seconds you could keep def down on a boss usung 2 drgs barring some kind of erase, and back then all you had was angon/dia1-3/frightful roar, was also bolts but gl landing those.

Ahhhh yes, the good old days of sitting outside of the party with the chi-blast mnks, waiting for Angon to be off cool-down so you could get invited to the 18 man fight – only to be removed again once it was on so a BLM, RDM, or SMN could re-take your spot.

Every group had at least one of us.
[+]
Offline
Posts: 946
By Nariont 2019-12-02 15:29:53  
If thats what you all did with your drgs instead of letting them dd where they werent in any worse shape than the other big names, similar to now actually, then sure
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2019-12-02 15:55:47
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | 引用 | 返事
 
Post deleted by User.
 Asura.Geriond
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Gerion
Posts: 1541
By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 15:58:49  
I don't know what shouts or linkshell you're talking about, but from my experience, ever since the update groups don't specifically ask for ANY of the heavy DDs anymore, barring a few very specific fights that a job is particularly good at (like MNK with TP denial setups). Generally they just ask for good DDs in general, whether that's a DRK, a MNK, or a DRG.

If DRGs are still less common in groups, that's more up to there being less people who have kept the job up to date due to it being lackluster for so long.
[+]
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2019-12-02 16:14:17
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | 引用 | 返事
 
Post deleted by User.
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2019-12-02 16:15:42
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | 引用 | 返事
 
Post deleted by User.
 Asura.Geriond
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Gerion
Posts: 1541
By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 16:20:36  
The point is that NONE of the high tier DDs are generally actively sought over the others anymore.
[+]
 Asura.Reichleiu
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Reichleiu
Posts: 414
By Asura.Reichleiu 2019-12-02 16:23:05  
Nariont said: »
If thats what you all did with your drgs instead of letting them dd where they werent in any worse shape than the other big names, similar to now actually, then sure

No.. it was the strat, it wasn't what I did – it was what everyone did. You didn't melee gods, hnms, etc way back in the day. You tanked them and threw mages at them. Monks sat outside the party boosting endlessly until they could fire off a nice 1k+ chi blast, but no one melee'd anything.

It wasn't until people started to realize how strong brd buffs were, and how you could rotate supports to buff yourself beyond belief that we started zerging everything.
 Asura.Geriond
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Gerion
Posts: 1541
By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 16:44:42  
I'm pretty sure Angon wasn't released until after the player base figured out BRD and melee usage on NMs.
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2019-12-02 16:45:34
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | 引用 | 返事
 
Post deleted by User.
 Lakshmi.Leosin
Offline
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Leosin
Posts: 229
By Lakshmi.Leosin 2019-12-02 16:47:32  
Asura.Reichleiu said: »
Every group had at least one of us.

Pepperidge CSS RDM remembers.
 Asura.Geriond
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Gerion
Posts: 1541
By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 17:03:03  
DirectX said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
The point is that NONE of the high tier DDs are generally actively sought over the others anymore.
Since when? The patch?
Yes; I've seen shouts and my linkshell mostly switching from "DRK/WAR/SAM" to "Heavy DD/DPS" or just "DD/DPS"
 Phoenix.Capuchin
Offline
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
user: Anza
Posts: 2608
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-12-02 17:09:14  
Asura.Geriond said: »
I don't know what shouts or linkshell you're talking about, but from my experience, ever since the update groups don't specifically ask for ANY of the heavy DDs anymore, barring a few very specific fights that a job is particularly good at (like MNK with TP denial setups). Generally they just ask for good DDs in general, whether that's a DRK, a MNK, or a DRG.
Asura.Geriond said: »
The point is that NONE of the high tier DDs are generally actively sought over the others anymore.

Exactly.

It feels like any complaints are either:
(a) addressing a situation that doesn't reaaaally happen, because what kind of groups these days really distinguish between similarly capable melee heavy DD jobs to the point where one is acceptable and another is not OK to bring? (I questioned whether that's some Asura weirdness I don't know about, but it doesn't seem that's really the case - people like Geriond aren't claiming it to be the status quo there now),
EDIT: and even prior to the most recent DRG update, I feel like people saying WAR/DRK/SAM often meant that as shorthand for "strong melee DD", and if you actually asked them to come on a very well geared DRG the majority would probably be fine with that.

or (b) you're just playing with a specific group of idiots, who you might want to reconsider teaming up with? You don't have to join shouts from morons, you know.

Yes, there are some specific exceptions that don't have broad applicability to most fights - like perhaps a particular Ambuscade or high tier. MNK for low # of DDs and low TP feed strats, jobs with the appropriate weapon type for Piercing/Blunt/Slashing weak mobs, SAM for certain Yaegasumi shenanigans, etc... Otherwise, a DD is a DD. And I'd go so far as to say most groups in my experience are pretty OK using a 1-hander like a quality geared THF DNC NIN BLU in a "DPS" slot in the majority of situations (including Dyna, and really only excluding very high end zerg fights like a WoC or something similar).

The one DD job that truly does have a bit of an advantage specific to short zerg fights would be WAR, and that's down to a combination of (1) Warcry being a very potent TP Bonus buff to all party members, and (2) Mighty Strikes being a fantastic SP that's tailor-made for zergs.
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 8051
By Asura.Saevel 2019-12-02 17:14:05  
Asura.Geriond said: »
I don't know what shouts or linkshell you're talking about, but from my experience, ever since the update groups don't specifically ask for ANY of the heavy DDs anymore, barring a few very specific fights that a job is particularly good at (like MNK with TP denial setups). Generally they just ask for good DDs in general, whether that's a DRK, a MNK, or a DRG.

If DRGs are still less common in groups, that's more up to there being less people who have kept the job up to date due to it being lackluster for so long.

Yeah it's surprisingly "balanced" right now though DRG and MNK are a bit strong right now when combined with their other abilities, but I think that's just cause SE hasn't gotten to WAR/DRK/SAM yet which could use minor tweaks but nothing major. Like make Scythe more damage friendly so DRK can do SC's better then just spamming Torc with a R15 Cala. Maybe provide WAR with a bit better damage reduction or boost Warcry / Blood Rage's effect to provide the party with more spike DPS. Do something with SAM that lets it boosts other people's TP gain or inhibit the targets TP gain, something like that.

I like having a pseudo balanced damage meta, at least among melee's.
Offline
Posts: 11764
By Draylo 2019-12-02 17:15:31  
DirectX said: »
Noone is using BLU as a melee for end game either really and weapon choice is a completely different context. Also please don't address half of what I said and ignore the other half - I specifically said shout or ask ls members to use DRG over other DDs.

Yes they are, so funny because nothing was changed with BLU only they were left off some gear options after Escha. The core of the job still functions the same and not every fight is a straight zerg.
 Asura.Saevel
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 8051
By Asura.Saevel 2019-12-02 17:23:46  
Draylo said: »
DirectX said: »
Noone is using BLU as a melee for end game either really and weapon choice is a completely different context. Also please don't address half of what I said and ignore the other half - I specifically said shout or ask ls members to use DRG over other DDs.

Yes they are, so funny because nothing was changed with BLU only they were left off some gear options after Escha. The core of the job still functions the same and not every fight is a straight zerg.

Yeah BLU is still a strong DD, maybe not the "A" tier what is WAR/DRK/SAM/MNK/DRG, but then again it was never in that tier anyway. BLU's strength is it's customization, it can be customized for each situation and can even change that customization if given a few minutes of notice. Our AoE cleaving BLU's become melee's BLUs when we head to the Wave 2 MB to start farming Wave 3. Giving up some raw damage potential for that vast versatility seems like a good trade. My only desire for them is to be given some more job traits like Subtle Blow and Damage Limit Plus.
[+]
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2019-12-02 17:31:09
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | 引用 | 返事
 
Post deleted by User.
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2019-12-02 17:33:15
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | 引用 | 返事
 
Post deleted by User.
 Asura.Geriond
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Gerion
Posts: 1541
By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-02 17:33:15  
If you haven't actually looked at the game situation post-patch from within the game, you don't really have an argument to stand on.
 
Offline
Posts:
By 2019-12-02 17:34:11
 Undelete | Edit  | Link | 引用 | 返事
 
Post deleted by User.
First Page 2 3 ... 90 91 92 ... 97 98 99
Log in to post.