Gungnir

Significantly for 2% vs 3% Crit Rate huh?

Accurate!

how does it have diminishing returns?

Because people decided to appropriate "diminishing returns" to an unusual meaning. It's all very moronic, to be honest.

I get it now, had to re-read that. Thanks lol.

To be honest I find it ridiculous to try to view Diminishing Returns as applicable to Crit Rate.

I mean really.

I understand that raising * piece of gear over * piece of gear has a net increase in DPS %age.

However using that to justify that DA will provide a full 2% increase or more to your DPS %age by itself is not accurate.

Even if you do not have a Warrior sub on, guess what? Most DRG's operate with at LEAST 8% DA.

Brutal, Atheling (Brutal, Atheling) Even more during WS phase (14% Lancer's +2)

Crit +3% will also raise your net dps %age, it'll also do something fantastic! It'll increase the rate at which if you own a Gungnir you can Crit a OD2.5D proc!

So personally, I really can't see how DA+2%. Especially when you sub WAR and you're rocking anywhere from 18-22% DA, would 2% on that really matter more so than 3% Crit Rate?

Nah.

Crit hit rate has diminishing returns compared to double attack returns on ws* is what he meant I think lol. But if your relying on double attack return for ws, your doing it wrong.

That's nothing what he meant.

When he says diminishing returns, he means it in the sense that if you have 20% DA, and you add 2% more, you're getting only 1.67% increase.

(1.22-1.2)/1.2 * 100 = 1.67

Drg/Sam



Drg/War

I've been thinking of this set up for my Drg someday, missing a few pieces. But I think both are Haste 26%, 5-hit builds... if my math is right. Any suggestions/comments, since we're on the subject of Drg and Gungnir?

Is the Moonshade supposed to be Regain?

Because what I see right now is a build that will in fact get you a 5 hit after a full connect Stardiver.

Anything else would provide less than sufficient TP to hit a 5 hit unless your Conserve TP Procs and or if that Moonshade is Regain then it may make up for missed hits.

That build however will in fact heavily affect your attack.

Your back piece alone causes you to lose: -35 Attack and 3% DA.

There's also several other pieces that if mixed and matched would greatly affect your attack rating.

Now, in regards to the /SAM build. That is a 5 hit, if Moonshade is Regain then it's a wasted earring for the slow unless you want to over TP.

You should review a few other sets on this forum, there are better sets noted.

That /WAR build almost entirely negates the benefits of being /WAR.

Where I wrote that 2%DA is 2% increase? I wrote that 2%DA is simply better than 3% crit rate for Gungnir because its *** is.


Lets assume some crit favoring cratio like 1.5
Lets assume your base damage from swing is 165 with fSTR
Lets assume your crit rate before grip is floored to 10%

Before grip: 165*2.5*0.1+165*1.5*0.9=41.25+222.75=264
With grip: 165*2.5*0.13+165*1.5*0.87=53.625+215.325=268.95
Thats 1.875% gain
Since you will be using Stardiver with Gungnir that will be only a gain to your melee dmg which in favoring melee dmg environment would be 50% of your total damage so 1.875/2 around 0.94%

Lets assume you have 8%DA with /SAM

avg hit per round:
Before pole grip - 1.08
After pole grip - 1.1

1.875% gain to your melee damage AND around +1.6% (to your WS frequency. So its already better than claymore grip because its same bonus to melee damage and gives you more frequent WSing BUT

Stardiver avg fTP will be something around:

Before polegrip: 4.173
With pole grip: 4.212

a little below 1% increase.

Summing up in crit and melee damage favoring situation which highly favor gain from claymore grip we have:
0.94% damage increase vs 1.4% damage increase and 1.6%increased WS frequency
Once again 2%DA is better than 3%crit rate for Gungnir DRG set. Its that simple.

Ato.. are we not using Drakes...ever? That crit rate would help with WS dmg a lot, no?

Lets assume crits do twice as much damage as normal hits, so Average Crit pDIF = 2 and Average Normal pDIF = 1. The same relationship emerges as long as Crit pDIF > Normal pDIF (always true), but this particular assumption simplifies the equation and helps remove constants.


Therefore an increase in Crit rate by 3% would increase your damage by:

So a 3% increase in crit rate on top of a 30% Crit rate base gives a 3%/1.3 increase in average pDIF (with these constants), or +2.3% average pDIF and thus damage.

Currently, it is because I did the fight when it first came out and people thought it was best at the time. Going to redo fight and make it a TP Bonus earring instead I think.



That's what I was contemplating. I looked through all the gear and it was the only way I can see doing a 5-hit but was thinking with what was being sacrificed, it might not be worth it. Thank you for the input.

Yeah so +2.3% but thats with very low pDIF which is very hard to find those days. Probably Igalima and Brex might drop you that low? Also its still worse than 2% DA even with that low pDIF uless you also use Drakes.

@Eikechi Stardiver should on avg almost always beat Drakes for Gungnir. Only situation that I see it can be close or Drakes could win is Igalima, Brex when your pDIF is low and on the same time you are getting buffs to your crit rate like blood rage, chempion drink and possibly 300TP WSs from wings. I have no time to calculate if Drakes in this situation would pull ahead but even then its only 2 mobs.

Anyways,

In light of everything

A grip has called my attention for Stardiver

Uther's Grip - +4 STR

Providing + 3.4 WSC and +1fSTR should it be required + 3 Attack.

How would this stack up at this point against Pole/Claymore.

I'm having thoughts that due to obvious consistency in damage for both WS and DoT and Jumps regardless of Wyvern up or down that it could provide some use at this point.

BTW -

Hume Stats for Stardiver in my set are

106 STR + 73 total = 179

With Boost STR up at +24, I'm calculating this as pushing Ogiers into winning territory.

Uther's sucks.

Does it? It would raise damage to a total of: 14.6 or so total across each Stardiver.

Sure... While decreasing your DoT and WS frequency (in the case of Pole Grip)

I really find it funny when people say: Yeah, that 2% DA is affecting your WS frequency so much.

Let's say it was a flat 2% WS Frequency increase.

This means what exactly.

That you'll gain an extra 2 ws over the course of 100 ws?

*Edit - How can we even come to the determination that it'll be a 2 WS increase over time? That implies what?

100 * 5 (6 hit) = within 500 Melee Rounds, and 500 WS you will only get a 2% WS frequency increase. Which implies what? That your DA 2% would need to activate 10 times for you to have this increase?

This also doesn't account for the times in which it causes over TP.

Does it increase it OVER TIME sure. No arguement, is that OVER TIME value valid and applicable in short fights? That's my question.

Fights last anywhere from 3 mins to 5 mins in extreme situations. You really think a 2% DA will give you an ADDITIONAL 2 WS within that time frame?

You think you're gonna swing 2 more times in 40 rounds of attacks? You realize there's another main factor in all of this than a straight white piece of paper and a digit on it. It's called probability.

We can't simply view something like this as a flat % without accounting for that. What I am questioning is:

Would that 2% DA, or 3% Crit Rate provide a better benefit in a short fight vs a straight increase to both WS and Melee DOT damage.

Yes. That's implied in the over time.

In short fights you do not provide 1,000 hit samples, and or 1,000 ws samples.

In short fights at best you hit anywhere from 40-60 times as a DD and WS 5-9 times.

A collection of your short fights would still become an "over time". That's the larger picture that is being alluded to.

Are we about to see haste takes time to proc?

I still think it's viable. You don't have to ws 100 times for 2% da to work. I'm not claiming any expertise but I can only assume that your average damage is still increased. Some fights it won't make a difference but others it will.

If all you did in the game, ever, was fight one EP mob... then Uther's would way more than likely win. However, that's not the case. I don't get how you can be so tunnel visioned in this. You do fight more than 1 mob, you do multiple long fights and short fights. When you add the damage results from each one and average it out, it will be in favor of other grips like Claymore or Pole.

Let's make it a little easier since you apparently can't grasp it. We say that when we flip a coin, there's a 50/50 chance that it will land on either side. If I flip a coin 10 times and I get 3 heads and 7 tails. What you're trying to say is something similar to saying that I have a 70% chance of getting tails. It's not expected that I get 5 heads 5 tails. In fact, there are 1024 different outcomes I could get from just flipping a coin 10 times. Even If I flipped 10 coins 50 times and never got a 5:5 ratio of heads to tails, it wouldn't change the fact that it's a 50/50 chance of either side.



Hi, this is a Bell Curve. What we're saying is that, while your actual results may be on either extreme of this graph, the perceived or expected results will most likely land in the darkest part. Or: Despite Uther's Grip winning sometimes, Pole Grip will win most of the time (even including your "conditions" and "scenarios").

Excuse some exaggerations in this next part:
Now, let's say you fight 500 100hp mobs with each grip.

1.) Each swing does 49 damage and Uther's Grip brings that to 50 damage. In the first 500 mobs with Pole Grip, Double Attack doesn't proc once making it so you had to swing a total of 1500 times to kill all 500 mobs. In the second set with Uther's, you kill all 500 mobs in 1000 swings.

In this extreme, Uther's Grip far exceeded Pole Grip in your actual results.

2.) Each swing does 50 damage and Uther's Grip brings that up to 51 damage. In the first 500 mobs with Pole Grip, Double Attack doesn't proc once making it so you had to swing a total of 1000 times to kill all 500 mobs. In the second set with Uther's, you kill all 500 mobs in 1000 swings.

In this extreme, even though Pole Grip didn't proc once, both grips yielded the same result.

3.) Each swing does 49 damage and Uther's Grip brings that up to 50 damage. In the first 500 mobs with Pole Grip, double attack happens to proc on every swing making it so you had to swing 1000 times. In the second set with Uther's, you kill all 500 mobs in 1000 swings.

In this extreme, even though Pole Grip procced every time, both grips yielded the same result.

4. Each swing does 50 damage, and Uther's Grip brings that up to 51 damage. In the first 500 mobs with Pole Grip, double attack happens to proc on every swing making it so you had to swing 500 times. In the second set with Uther's, you kill all 500 mobs in 1000 swings.

In this extreme, Uther's added nearly no additional advantages to swinging with no grip at all while Pole provided a huge increase.


These results can apply to a single mob or whatever you define a "short fight" as. What I'm trying to show is that all of this is possible. What if in whatever short fight you're talking about, Pole Grip's actual results gives you a 10% Double Attack within that fight? What if in whatever short fight you're talking about, Uther's Grip doesn't even let you swing 1x less to kill a monster?

Using this superficial "in short fights" scenario is a ridiculous way to rate the over-all performance of any piece of equipment. If you wanna take your Gungnir and go parse Rabbits in West Sarutaburata to prove that Uther's Grip is better than Pole Grip, be my guest.

I'll go as far as saying you ARE right. Uther's Grip can situationally be mathematically better than Pole Grip, all factors included. However, you are not taking into account correct factors or providing accurate/thought out situations.


In 15 minutes, if you were going to fulfill this scenario, probability provides that a LARGE number of possibilities may occur. (As I said earlier, just flipping a coin 10 times provided 1024 possibilities assuming it never ends up landing on it's edge with no side being "up") Out of all those probabilities of what might happen in 15 minutes, some will have Uther's Grip to be the better grip, some will have Pole. Heck, some might even have Sword win because you were hit a certain number of times allowing you to 6-hit despite lack of STP. Neither of these possibilities, by itself, proves that one grip is better than all the others. If all of these results are taken as a whole, you'll find that the probability of Pole Grip coming out ahead of Uther's Grip is greater given normal situations.

Now... I'm not saying that I'm a genius or that all of this is 100% correct, but if you still don't get it after me trying to explain this to you, you're pretty much a lost hope and others should stop trying to argue this fact with you.

tl;dr Pole Grip is better than Uther's and Amador is a very confused person

If you do 100 WSs in that time frame then yeah you'll get <2 more WSs on average. If you do 10, you'll get 0.2 more on average, etc.

You can account for probability, and that is by taking averages.

Completely valid, and I do understand.

I just wish there was more probability added on to all of these base and bland numbers.

Just like Sekundes said SOME FIGHTS it'll make a difference, and some others it won't. That's factual and logical.

To simply state: Yes, my WS rate went up 2% that fight due to this nifty little 2% piece here that really didn't activate at all during that fight!

I get it that if you have a lot of samples it CAN be more valid.

So technically what I would love is something that showed -

You have x probability that this will proc there for enhancing your actual dps by x.

However, if you have x(gear) instead of x(gear) you won't have the probability factor but your dps will increase by x.

In which case, if the probability is too low for something to occur. Then x piece would be better to use to eliminate error!

Therefore basing it off of the actual probability and not in a scenario which forces it to happen after x number of samples.

That is what I want, but what I never see.

You have a 2% probability that Pole Grip will proc. Depending on gear/merits/job/subjob/etc. therefor enhancing your actual dps by DO YOUR OWN MATH, PROVIDE YOUR OWN FACTORS.

No one in their right might is going to make a list of every mob, at every level of it's existence, at every HP you ever start fighting, with every possibility of party member job, with every possibility of party member sub job, with every possibility of member player, of every possibility of party member doing xAction at xTime, with every possibility of gear, with every possibility of time engaged, with every possibility of sleep/stona/stun/knock back/your freakin' cat made your character turn so you can't see mob... You get the picture... AND THEN point out which ones would be better with which grip... AND THEN realize on the spot which scenario out of all those he figured out... AND THEN equip for that given scenario.

Instead, what you can do is narrow down the number of possibilities by providing your stats/gear, the mob you intend to fight, what buffs you intend to be receiving, and other relevant information so that someone can help advise you what would MOST LIKELY be better.

Yes, in the end this won't be 100% correct and it may end up to be wrong in that fight you planned for. However, what you're basically asking for is impossible so this is the best we can do for you. Remember, you are on a forum with other people have plenty of uses for your time. So, if you want to get unreasonably specific, you should probably go back to school and study all the necessary information you need to do this math by yourself and then do it yourself.

It's less than 2% increase in chance though.

I understand the math, I'm just not comfortable with the probability aspect of it at all that can only be determined if you have a sample size of 100 -_-

Now as far as your remaining factors go down below, dandy.

It still doesn't take away form the fact that the % is so low that it may or may not proc.