A Question For The Religious.
A question for the religious.
I wouldnt sell my soul. There aint much I need in life.
Ramuh.Vinvv said:
What fire?
I'm curious as to what you would say(and even more-so curious as to what some others would say as well~~~looking at you wombie, not using this as a jab in the least, just setting this up as dialog in reference to the big hell tangent)
I'm going to lunch so put a 30 minute delay on any replies.
I'm curious as to what you would say(and even more-so curious as to what some others would say as well~~~looking at you wombie, not using this as a jab in the least, just setting this up as dialog in reference to the big hell tangent)
I'm going to lunch so put a 30 minute delay on any replies.
Getting a clear picture of the "afterlife" from the Bible is not even remotely close to as easy as many Christians would lead you to believe. (That sentence is miserable, but it just barely makes enough sense to leave it--I should have just fixed it instead of typing this out.)
Fenrir.Skarwind said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Fenrir.Skarwind said:
I do have a question though for you die hard religious people.
This is more of a vent for me too so I apologize.
Say everything in your life goes wrong, how can you still have such faith in religion? How do you feel when prayers go un-answered and things just get worse.
For example, having to deal with this huge list of things is overwhelming.
So I mean how can people stay so damned positive and religious? I'm sure people have gone through worse then what I have and are able to keep some kind of faith. Sorry about the QQ story but this is a serious question for me.
This is more of a vent for me too so I apologize.
Say everything in your life goes wrong, how can you still have such faith in religion? How do you feel when prayers go un-answered and things just get worse.
For example, having to deal with this huge list of things is overwhelming.
So I mean how can people stay so damned positive and religious? I'm sure people have gone through worse then what I have and are able to keep some kind of faith. Sorry about the QQ story but this is a serious question for me.
This would make it extremely hard to remain faithful to a religion that promised life would be easy for the believers. I've yet to find any religion that makes such a promise. (though one probably exists somewhere) You may want to take a peek at Job. It's about this exact question.
As an aside, it seems awfully arrogant to say your prayers go unanswered in the context of an omniscient omnipotent being. When your kids tell you they want a new car and you don't buy them one they won't be dumb enough to think their request went unanswered. They will instead realize the answer was "no." And yet with God, we assume that if we don't get exactly what we want we simply didn't receive an answer at all, it never occurs to most that the universe's most supreme and all powerful being could possibly have a reason to not cater to their every whim and request.
That's the thing it's not like people bug the big guy all the time either. It's arrogant to call a person an omniscient omnipotent being when all they do is sit and watch. I'm strongly coming to believe that if there is a higher power they only care about the planet as a whole.
See my tree comment.
Edit: Take all the war's in history it was man who ended them and many pleas for help went unanswered when it was too late. I don't see that as the same as some brat asking for a new car.
If you wish to debate the existence of God there are certainly some arguments (whether effective or ineffective) that can be made, but omniscient and omnipotent are built into the definition of God. Any talk about God presupposes these traits of necessity. Also, what's inconsistent with an omniscient/omnipotent being just sitting and watching (which I'm not convinced is what God does)? Do you speak from your immense experience with omniscience and omnipotence? That's one of the clever things about the comic strip Dilbert. Scott Adams chose to make the worlds smartest man a garbage man, and when asked about it he said who would any of us be to question what the world's smartest man has chosen to do? He is by definition smarter than any of us after all.
Men also started those wars which fact you conveniently glossed over. Furthermore wherein can you claim pleas for help went unanswered if those wars were indeed, as you said, ended? More importantly what would you like God to have done to have stopped those wars? Certainly doing so is by definition within the power of an omnipotent being, but doing so would rob mankind of free will. Do you honestly want to live in a world without free will? The kind of utter stagnation this would create at the personal level is entirely inconsistent with the notion of a God who loves us.
Wombat said:
Ramuh.Vinvv said:
What fire?
I'm curious as to what you would say(and even more-so curious as to what some others would say as well~~~looking at you wombie, not using this as a jab in the least, just setting this up as dialog in reference to the big hell tangent)
I'm going to lunch so put a 30 minute delay on any replies.
I'm curious as to what you would say(and even more-so curious as to what some others would say as well~~~looking at you wombie, not using this as a jab in the least, just setting this up as dialog in reference to the big hell tangent)
I'm going to lunch so put a 30 minute delay on any replies.
Getting a clear picture of the "afterlife" from the Bible is not even remotely close to as easy as many Christians would lead you to believe. (That sentence is miserable, but it just barely makes enough sense to leave it--I should have just fixed it instead of typing this out.)
Odin.Gosuapple said:
More importantly what would you like God to have done to have stopped those wars? Certainly doing so is by definition within the power of an omnipotent being, but doing so would rob mankind of free will. Do you honestly want to live in a world without free will? The kind of utter stagnation this would create at the personal level is entirely inconsistent with the notion of a God who loves us.
Something cool. The gods and goddesses of old used to interact with people all the time (at least in stories). The bible is filled with stories of god getting involved, raining down fire and brimstone, floods, pestalence, rivers of blood, turning people into pillars of salt, killing all the first born. all kinds of cool stuff. I think people want to see something happen in their lifetimes that's unmistakably from the hand of god. Smite a few of us non believers as lesson to everyone else but do it with god size style and then finish with
/jazzhands
[+]
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Fenrir.Skarwind said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
That's the thing it's not like people bug the big guy all the time either. It's arrogant to call a person an omniscient omnipotent being when all they do is sit and watch. I'm strongly coming to believe that if there is a higher power they only care about the planet as a whole.
See my tree comment.
Edit: Take all the war's in history it was man who ended them and many pleas for help went unanswered when it was too late. I don't see that as the same as some brat asking for a new car.
If you wish to debate the existence of God there are certainly some arguments (whether effective or ineffective) that can be made, but omniscient and omnipotent are built into the definition of God. Any talk about God presupposes these traits of necessity. Also, what's inconsistent with an omniscient/omnipotent being just sitting and watching (which I'm not convinced is what God does)? Do you speak from your immense experience with omniscience and omnipotence? That's one of the clever things about the comic strip Dilbert. Scott Adams chose to make the worlds smartest man a garbage man, and when asked about it he said who would any of us be to question what the world's smartest man has chosen to do? He is by definition smarter than any of us after all.
Men also started those wars which fact you conveniently glossed over. Furthermore wherein can you claim pleas for help went unanswered if those wars were indeed, as you said, ended? More importantly what would you like God to have done to have stopped those wars? Certainly doing so is by definition within the power of an omnipotent being, but doing so would rob mankind of free will. Do you honestly want to live in a world without free will? The kind of utter stagnation this would create at the personal level is entirely inconsistent with the notion of a God who loves us.
To be truthful about the god that loves us is new testament. I'm thinking old testament wouldn't stand for many "sins" mankind has done.
Comparing the village of Sodom to Say Nazi Germany. (Trival Yes?)
The great floods through out history (Every religion has one) because of how corrupt mankind has become. some moral blah blah blah)
Past events pale in comparison to recent events in terms of "Sin" and Divine intervention from a Christian point of view has never surfaced since the death of Christ. In biblical stories mankind constantly seemed to be robbed of free will, and if they violated rules imposed on them they ended up being wiped off the face of the earth. I'm not saying god isn't real. Nobody can prove if he is or isn't.
It's just since we started growing as a civilization, statistically murder and crimes would rise naturally. So where is the omniscient omnipotent big guy with all the love and care? for that matter does the old testament bad *** even try anymore?
Wouldn't he come down and tell extremist groups for example to calm the f*ck down and stop killing in his name?
I would like to apologize if I offended anyone, but i was just trying to produce a counter argument. I didn't mean to gloss over the war thing but you know how big of a wall o' text that can make.
Fact is not Fate, nor Fate = Fact, but both are deeply ingrained in the human psyche. All that we are exists in the dimension it does because we have these 2 sides.
With out this we would merely be simple animals. Even the small unheard of tribes found through out the ages had some form of faith.
With out this we would merely be simple animals. Even the small unheard of tribes found through out the ages had some form of faith.
Fenrir.Skarwind said:
There is much religion doesn't explain
Nut-case alert incoming.
If you planted a tree and over time watched it grow would you care about each and every little leaf? But this would certainly explain why god wouldn't care about each and every one of us as an individual.
In saying this we are just a speck of sand on a beach, probably even smaller. But the pain and emotional stress we can go through can feel like a whole world of hurt.
All I can really do is just sit down, close my eyes and try to relax into a trance or meditative state. Just personal peace is what gets me through it all. the idea of clearing your mind, but the stress cans till get to you through out the day.
Also hey nothing to apologize about Elana?
Stargate SG-1/atlantis says hi
Cerberus.Irohuro said:
Fenrir.Skarwind said:
There is much religion doesn't explain
Nut-case alert incoming.
If you planted a tree and over time watched it grow would you care about each and every little leaf? But this would certainly explain why god wouldn't care about each and every one of us as an individual.
In saying this we are just a speck of sand on a beach, probably even smaller. But the pain and emotional stress we can go through can feel like a whole world of hurt.
All I can really do is just sit down, close my eyes and try to relax into a trance or meditative state. Just personal peace is what gets me through it all. the idea of clearing your mind, but the stress cans till get to you through out the day.
Also hey nothing to apologize about Elana?
Stargate SG-1/atlantis says hi
Well I only seen the first Stargate but as research goes on they are finding evidence of such things. I kind of love the super natural and everything. The atlantis thing I was reading into also had some weird things. Autech( U.S. Navy Installation similar to Area 51. Dealing with USO and aquatic operations.) Is supposed to be built on the remnants of atlantis.
I'll let you look that up though. It's stationed in the Bahamas.
Cerberus.Irohuro said:
Cerberus.Irohuro said:
Scary food for though is if.
-Our own civilization was more advanced then we we're now but something horrible happened. A dark age happened and most of the technology was lost and we started over.
-If we we're from space ourselves.
I really need to watch Stargate it seems kind of interesting. They have a show on History called ancient astronauts and the Thor thing makes sense. Hell a lot of Norse and Greek gods would fit right in.
Fenrir.Skarwind said:
Scary food for thought is if.
-Our own civilization was more advanced then we we're now but something horrible happened. A dark age happened and most of the technology was lost and we started over.
Sylph.Dobrusi said:
- "We live by faith, not by sight" -2 Corinthians 5:7
Sylph.Dobrusi said:
Ifrit.Daemun said:
Sylph.Dobrusi said:
- "We live by faith, not by sight" -2 Corinthians 5:7
Also 2 Corinthians, chapter 4
Sylph.Dobrusi said:
Ifrit.Daemun said:
Sylph.Dobrusi said:
Ifrit.Daemun said:
Sylph.Dobrusi said:
- "We live by faith, not by sight" -2 Corinthians 5:7
I only remembered it because coincidentally my small group just went through that book the last few weeks :)
Sylph.Dobrusi said:
My wife and I get the daily devotional through Joel Osteen's website and we love it! A great way to start the day. If you are interested, go to his site and it's easy to sign up for and you will be glad you did!
"Accept it as part of God's Divine Plan."
Fenrir.Skarwind said:
I do have a question though for you die hard religious people.
This is more of a vent for me too so I apologize.
Say everything in your life goes wrong, how can you still have such faith in religion? How do you feel when prayers go un-answered and things just get worse.
For example, having to deal with this huge list of things is overwhelming.
So I mean how can people stay so damned positive and religious? I'm sure people have gone through worse then what I have and are able to keep some kind of faith. Sorry about the QQ story but this is a serious question for me.
This is more of a vent for me too so I apologize.
Say everything in your life goes wrong, how can you still have such faith in religion? How do you feel when prayers go un-answered and things just get worse.
For example, having to deal with this huge list of things is overwhelming.
So I mean how can people stay so damned positive and religious? I'm sure people have gone through worse then what I have and are able to keep some kind of faith. Sorry about the QQ story but this is a serious question for me.
Pain is relative. To a person being tortured every day of their lives, being shown a small glimpse of kindness can be equatable to any normal person winning a 5 billion dollar lottery.
Parents are burdened with the fact that bringing a life into this world can make the receiver of that life live miserably or wonderfully for all their days. I see that the alternative to life is nothingness. Life is like a sine wave, it's good sometimes, bad sometimes(all relative), but if you take the average, it's the same as a straight line. Death, on the other hand, is that straight line. Sure, no sadness, but no happiness either.
I stick with Alexandre Dumas' words in The Count of Monte Cristo when he says, "There is neither happiness nor unhappiness in this world; there is only the comparison of one state with another. Only a man who has felt ultimate despair is capable of feeling ultimate bliss. It is necessary to have wished for death in order to know how good it is to live.....the sum of all human wisdom will be contained in these two words: Wait and Hope."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTO_dZUvbJA
In short: All humans have a psychological immune system that protects us from being unhappy.
Often times, religion simply takes what everyone already has and says, "Here's what religion has to offer you", when it's not really anything new.
In short: All humans have a psychological immune system that protects us from being unhappy.
Often times, religion simply takes what everyone already has and says, "Here's what religion has to offer you", when it's not really anything new.
[+]
Fenrir.Skarwind said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
Fenrir.Skarwind said:
Odin.Gosuapple said:
That's the thing it's not like people bug the big guy all the time either. It's arrogant to call a person an omniscient omnipotent being when all they do is sit and watch. I'm strongly coming to believe that if there is a higher power they only care about the planet as a whole.
See my tree comment.
Edit: Take all the war's in history it was man who ended them and many pleas for help went unanswered when it was too late. I don't see that as the same as some brat asking for a new car.
If you wish to debate the existence of God there are certainly some arguments (whether effective or ineffective) that can be made, but omniscient and omnipotent are built into the definition of God. Any talk about God presupposes these traits of necessity. Also, what's inconsistent with an omniscient/omnipotent being just sitting and watching (which I'm not convinced is what God does)? Do you speak from your immense experience with omniscience and omnipotence? That's one of the clever things about the comic strip Dilbert. Scott Adams chose to make the worlds smartest man a garbage man, and when asked about it he said who would any of us be to question what the world's smartest man has chosen to do? He is by definition smarter than any of us after all.
Men also started those wars which fact you conveniently glossed over. Furthermore wherein can you claim pleas for help went unanswered if those wars were indeed, as you said, ended? More importantly what would you like God to have done to have stopped those wars? Certainly doing so is by definition within the power of an omnipotent being, but doing so would rob mankind of free will. Do you honestly want to live in a world without free will? The kind of utter stagnation this would create at the personal level is entirely inconsistent with the notion of a God who loves us.
To be truthful about the god that loves us is new testament. I'm thinking old testament wouldn't stand for many "sins" mankind has done.
Comparing the village of Sodom to Say Nazi Germany. (Trival Yes?)
The great floods through out history (Every religion has one) because of how corrupt mankind has become. some moral blah blah blah)
Past events pale in comparison to recent events in terms of "Sin" and Divine intervention from a Christian point of view has never surfaced since the death of Christ. In biblical stories mankind constantly seemed to be robbed of free will, and if they violated rules imposed on them they ended up being wiped off the face of the earth. I'm not saying god isn't real. Nobody can prove if he is or isn't.
It's just since we started growing as a civilization, statistically murder and crimes would rise naturally. So where is the omniscient omnipotent big guy with all the love and care? for that matter does the old testament bad *** even try anymore?
Wouldn't he come down and tell extremist groups for example to calm the f*ck down and stop killing in his name?
I would like to apologize if I offended anyone, but i was just trying to produce a counter argument. I didn't mean to gloss over the war thing but you know how big of a wall o' text that can make.
To your very first point, I never tried to claim you didn't have free will, but "I have the free will to be as dumb as I want" is not a great response to someone showing that your position is inconsistent. You have the free will to do all kinds of things are bad ideas; still doesn't make it smart to do them.
As to your example of Sodom. Have you even read that story? Seriously? God promised Lot that if he could find a single good person in the city he would spare it. Are you trying to say that Nazi Germany didn't have a single good person? If not your argument is not analogous and therefore pointless.
And again, in response to your "why does this or that exist?" type argument I would refer you back to my point about Dilbert's garbage man that you never bothered to answer. You don't like them, you think we'd be better off without them, most people do. But again if you aren't trying to argue that God doesn't exists, these points are mute, He obviously is more qualified to be making that decision if you are presupposing his existence.
It all comes down to what you as an individual think. Honestly, nobody's right. You can't prove unequivocally that God does or does not exist on either side.
Strong arguments for and against? Sure. An atheist or a Christian saying they have 100% proof one way or the other? Not possible.
So really, when it's said and done, all of the "religious problems" whether it be wars, chaos, etc. is stupid b/c it could all be over nothing. Or it could be over everything. Who knows. Which is my point.
Strong arguments for and against? Sure. An atheist or a Christian saying they have 100% proof one way or the other? Not possible.
So really, when it's said and done, all of the "religious problems" whether it be wars, chaos, etc. is stupid b/c it could all be over nothing. Or it could be over everything. Who knows. Which is my point.
Odin.Gosuapple said:
To your very first point, I never tried to claim you didn't have free will, but "I have the free will to be as dumb as I want" is not a great response to someone showing that your position is inconsistent. You have the free will to do all kinds of things are bad ideas; still doesn't make it smart to do them.
As to your example of Sodom. Have you even read that story? Seriously? God promised Lot that if he could find a single good person in the city he would spare it. Are you trying to say that Nazi Germany didn't have a single good person? If not your argument is not analogous and therefore pointless.
And again, in response to your "why does this or that exist?" type argument I would refer you back to my point about Dilbert's garbage man that you never bothered to answer. You don't like them, you think we'd be better off without them, most people do. But again if you aren't trying to argue that God doesn't exists, these points are moot, He obviously is more qualified to be making that decision if you are presupposing his existence.
As to your example of Sodom. Have you even read that story? Seriously? God promised Lot that if he could find a single good person in the city he would spare it. Are you trying to say that Nazi Germany didn't have a single good person? If not your argument is not analogous and therefore pointless.
And again, in response to your "why does this or that exist?" type argument I would refer you back to my point about Dilbert's garbage man that you never bothered to answer. You don't like them, you think we'd be better off without them, most people do. But again if you aren't trying to argue that God doesn't exists, these points are moot, He obviously is more qualified to be making that decision if you are presupposing his existence.
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