Nyame Path C....

There's a massive difference between dislike and expressing it, and what you're doing- obsessing and saying everyone with a different opinion to yours is obviously misunderstanding you, because if they DID understand you, they'd be on your side.

The Entitled comment is about how something isn't the way you expect, and you're upset about it. That is about as close to a raw definition of entitlement I can come up with. Its no different than the career WAR who only played one job really well, then Abyssea hit and now he had to play a job he didn't like now and then.

Your comments here are accurate- but you need to look in a mirror before firing them at others....because multiple people are all telling you same thing, yet you continue to post 5-quote tomes to re-state the same thing, over and over.


You're a well-respected player for your knowledge and your skill, and rightfully so. But this isn't a good look. Again, you're better than this.

Fyi, I'm not "upset" over vertical progression. I understand why some MMO players prefer this way, it's simple and straight forward for most gamers. But I personally believe it doesn't work well in FFXI because of reasons stated above, and less fun too.

If FFXI system is built ON vertical progression, then it's a different story. Like FF14 where every raid has a required gear score, and you have to complete them for the next tier.

But in FFXI? Personally I think it doesn't work quite well.


Not necessarily. Vertical progression v.s horizontal progression isn't about right or wrong. It's mostly a preference. It's not like math that 1+1 is always 2.

Right now it's basically me stating my preference with you and Baniak trying to convince that my preference is "wrong".


It's entirely reasonable to expect FFXI having a horizontal progression system though. It has worked like this for a long long time. It was like that in 75, it was like that in 2012, it was like that in 2018 too.

It's not like I ask FFXI to be a totally different game, I simply asked for 2-3 other alternative endgame progression that isn't Odyssey so people has more choices. What is so unreasonable about it?


Multiple people here tried to tell me "Odyssey is fine" as I make a statement about what I like and dislike about it. But their reasoning was I should accept Odyssey for the way it is and deal with it

If there is one thing that I did wrong, is that I should have post this on OF not FFXIAH.com.


I believe YOU are the person who played "go seek therapy" card first, not me.

I was perfectly claim when I express my opinion on what I like and dislike about something. I wasn't even all that negative and stated that I liked Odyssey battle mechanics, only disliking the lack of relevant endgame content variety in 2022. It's all you overreacting on my opinion.

so about those 5-quote tomes.....

V15 require no Nyame. What are you talking about. We used no Nyame on our v15 clears. You ideally want high MEVA and DT but you can use R0 Sakpata and bunzi for it or Malignance. You can compensate with extra SV light carol too and use higher DPS gear too. V20 has much higher DPS check, but v15 is easily doable with many configurations and require no Nyame on anyone.

I didn't say v15 "require" Nyame to get a win. I only said it's a drastic advantage(roughly 20% weaker WS without) using spreadsheet numbers from the last page. So people will lean towards those who already has Nyame done or high rank, because it IS major advantage mathematically.

If the 2nd best alternative from a different content that is more like 5% behind, but keep both sets situational swaps, it'd feel more like the right spot IMO. I wish empy +2 bridge that gap.

But it isnt required, so what's the point? In every other event in the past you would also prefer people with better gear, including gear you can get in the event you are doing. Any dps advantage like that on a V15 Bumba is less than a minute on a 3 minutes fight, which is far less than VD Ambu mentioned by you earlier. You are also talking about COR example, WAR will have much smaller advantage with Nyame over a mix of R0 Sakpata and 10%WSD JSE pieces. Same for DRG and WSD+gleti etc.

When we got our 1st 10% WSD pieces in AF+3 via Omen- were the 2nd best options in those gear slots "like 5% behind"? Nope- it was a massive increase in our DPS capabilities from a new content limited to 6 people.

When Salvage Gears were first released- was ANYTHING within 5% DPS potential of the Morrigan's Set, outside of the Hands compared to Zenith+1? Oh, and again a time-locked content where exclusion was more common than inclusion for groups.

When Delve was released- were the key pieces just 5% better than existing options from other content and were groups extremely inviting to lesser geared players?

This is not new. This is how the game has always worked- there are moments we get a massive jump and are expected to struggle to gain ground and make that "new" content easier due to improving one's strength thru that content.

If the math advantage is big and pt got "punished"(the feels) with less RP/seg per run, then people will lean towards it.


The problem isn't players prefer people with better gears. The problem is if you lack Odyssey group and never have Nyame done, your WS is 20% weaker or more with no alternative to get close.

Before Odyssey, if you lack dyna w3 groups I don't think your WS would be 20% behind no?


I currently don't have war sheet to tell the difference. What is the difference if you have data?

Herc, DM aug. Or something like wsd +5% with mod is still pretty good.

Yes, I got that it's extremely luck dependant and most people probably don't have it, but the no-endgame group progression option was there.


In your example pretty much h2h from delve fits your description, of being exclusive and game changing. And that era ended fairly quickly. I didn't agree with how delve worked right after release anyways.

I don't play mage jobs enough to comment on Morrigan

DM augs didn't exist prior to Omen release- there was no DM campaign and actual Dark Matters were not being used for that purpose.

And if "something like wsd+5%" is still pretty good.....why are you arguing that Nyame is SOOO needed? The difference between the DRK Relic+3 legs and Nyame legs at R20 actually leaves the DRK relic+3 legs ahead. Same for the WAR head WSD piece. And many other examples for primary DDs work this way until you hit R25 on Nyame.

Nyame is great because of its multi-purpose use and -DT. But in terms of raw stats, in particular for a mutliple stat WS like Savage Blade, it often falls behind if the +WSD and +attack are at least close to a JSE piece.

At attack cap Sakpata body/hands/legs with Sulevia+2 feet and Relic+3 head is actually 1.3% DPS GAIN over 5/5 R25 Nyame.

There goes your argument.

Well, thank you for at least trying to discuss the issue and bring something to the table this time.

Admittedly my perspective may* be screwed since I main a SB/hybrid WS heavy job, that Nyame makes a noticable difference mathematically. And I currently don't have updated war and DRG sheet to confirm the difference on those 2 jobs.

So yeah, feel free to tell me that I'm wrong that the issue only exist on cor but not other job. math please though, therapy talk no thanks! :)

What about attack uncapped? Also who the *** WS in 5/5 Nyame if attack is capped?

You are competing Nyame 5/5 owners not playing the job properly here lol. And frankly that makes your statement weaker and less believable.

If you want to compare the difference, use pre-ody sets v.s Nyame 5/5 in attack uncapped situations or pdl+ swap in capped situation please.

Nyame makes such a huge difference for COR simply because the only real Savage Blade WS piece we get is the AF+3 body. Our Relic Feet as you know just aren't built for that type of WS, and Nyame is a boost even over those.

But on COR, if you really want to live and die by the spreadsheet you should Savage Blade in Ikenga Vest anyways- but have fun with the lack of melee accuracy and attack to make that work in the real vs the spreadsheet.

Yes, COR gains a ton in terms of melee physical WSdmg from Nyame. RDM gains even more, and so does BRD. And the big DDs game some, but its not so night and day.

I gotta say this in addition: You don't need a spreadsheet for every job to know if something is better or worse- just take the job out into the field and try ***out. Its gotta be more interesting than putting numbers into a formula that assumes ideal conditions every time and nothing coming back at ya. Step away from the crutch of spreadsheets and just use your own personal knowledge (which I know is VAST) and run with that. Just because you "don't have a <insert job> spreadsheet" doesn't mean you can't break it down or discuss based on general game principles.

What are you talking about???? Did you even read my posts talking about spreadsheet numbers?

It was done under attack uncapped situations..


This is painful to read, and just a waste of my time at this point. If you have no intention to discuss, but only want to win the argument, then I'm done here.

If you want to discuss, at least read the content before you reply them.

no, my dear- I didn't read half of those giant posts you make (which I'm guilty of doing as well in other threads many times when passionate about a topic) because...well, I'm just not interested in numbers a spreadsheet shits out. Its always under ideal conditions, with zero regard to what the mob is throwing back at you, and I see minimal value in evaluating pieces only under those conditions.

I pretty much stopped trusting your spreadsheets when you were espousing the benefits of still wearing a Thaumas Coat in the era of iLvl gear because "the spreadsheet said it was better". Have fun living while wearing that.

You are *** ridiculous. This game stats is math based, so using math to calculate the possible outcome under various condition is totally legit.

For things that involve human behavior, spreadsheet does not tell you the right answer. Like it can't tell you when to use a DT set or not, because spreadsheet can't predict party setup nor tank whm play skill.

For simple things like calculating WS avg using certain sets, what's wrong with using math for the answer?

I'm not even sure why do you suddenly brought up spreadsheet discussion when this was about Nyame C and Odyssey progression system. What a derail!


My personal knowledge, if I even have any, came from reading wiki, running math models and testing the results in game. Ditching math models in this entire process doesn't make me better nor more knowledgeable unfortunately.

I'm out- I just want history to show that Afania told me that bringing up Spreadsheets was me derailing a thread.

I didn't tell you to wear thaumas coat in the hardest content lol. Wtf did you read?

It's not my problem if you read things wrong, or don't read at all.

But I guess you are the kind of person that rather rely on human brain on decision making than getting math/data involved in the process, which common anyways.

But that isn't how my brain function, sorry. I don't trust my intuition, nor my human brain. So I like to have a tool to help me make better decisions on things. That doesn't mean I completely ditch my human brain on decision making. I use both.

I never wear thaumas coat in harder content btw, nor I ever die because of it, if I die I usually die in other much better DT sets lol.

Now are you done with your irrelevant rant on different topics?


I used spreadsheet to discuss Odyssey progression system problem but you posted to bash it because you have a personal problem with math based tools.

So yup, what a derail.

You was talking about Nyame specifically being the problem on V15 Bumba, so I gave you data for that scenario. Why would I check for uncapped, when on Bumba V15 you are capped, because you use berserk+SVsongs+warcry+Angons+DiaII+NaeglingBonus etc. and sword has generally lower pDIF cap too.

If you want to suddenly make it a wider issue, for segments for example, then WHY would you need to use Savage? I can take Ukonvasara WAR and I wont use Nyame at all or Caladbolg DRK and it will be almost the same (you can use R25 Nyame in some slots for Caldbolg DRK, but the gain will be marginal). Paradoxically Nyame is much bigger gain for support jobs in segments, not some most powerful DD jobs/builds. Sure you can take examples like SAM or NIN, where Nyame is more important, but then its not general issue anymore, but some specific job issue.

Checking attack uncapped set is reasonable, because bumba can erase debuffs. Unless you want to argue that berserk+SV song is enough to cap.


Ok.

Still an issue though :<

You can nitpick about whether Nyame set gates progress or not all day, but odyssey is still vertical progression. No matter how you look at it, the current state of the game is vertical grind. You can skip right to the end of most melee by buying your odyssey clears(and malignance from trove), then you're just going vertical from there while you grind odyssey for months to improve your augments and master level for base stats.

People mentioned that farming RP is easy, but farming segments efficiently is considerably harder. A group that doesn't have 200 runs under their belt or augmented Nyame gear is probably going to struggle to break 5k segments. Good luck reliably one-shotting before TP without Nyame, never mind without the practice most groups have after doing the same damn run for over a year. On top of all that, it's assuming you can even get the same 6 people together reliably, which is a colossal task on it's own for the servers that don't have PUG culture.

It's honestly shocking to see so many take this stance when horizontal progression is one of the best things FFXI had to offer. Odyssey is objectively bad design in the context of FFXI's typical environment. It outdated huge swaths of AF and relic gear while providing no depth of content to replace them. It's just grinding for the sake of being the best, and it's implemented in a way that massively discourages bringing lesser geared friends at all.

You wont see which ones are erased afaik, so you would still use attack capped gear, unless you will notice your damage dropped, but Dia II is easy to recast and you will have several Angons being used in the fight.

Im not saying Nyame isnt vertical progression, neither I don't even argue it's good. I also think they took it too far and it's even worse for Nyame C imo, which is OVERHELMING vertical progression for MB and nuke sets for some jobs and it's not even achievable, because you need path B.

I'm taking this realistically tho, they wont reverse Nyame, so..


Hahahaha this is super false tho. You can take DRK and WAR using Calad and Ukon/Chango and use no Nyame at all and easily break 10k.

Sure, if you have a group that already knows what to do, every mage RMEA, etc. Those are the same people who already have Nyame, so there's a degree of selection bias. I would bet 500m you can't make a group full of people who haven't already cleared odyssey that can pull 10k segs. You cherry pick Nyame, I also mentioned the amount of experience.

Edit: I'm not arguing about Nyame in general. I don't like it, but it's not the only problem Odyssey has. It's still an extremely exclusionary event that favors keeping your existing group over ever including others, and heavily focused on vertical progression.

BLU doing CJ with all the evasion and regen buffs, BRD, COR, SCH, PLD, WAR clearing Feathers and you probably could, but also I don't understand this argument at all. Youa re talking about experience or gear now? Because its normal without experience and knowing what to do you will make a much worse run, but how is that related to vertical progression? Unless you mean gear, then sure, but without any odyssey gear you could still do quite well in Segments on some jobs.

Experience and cohesion make it unlikely anyone with an existing segment group will want to include new players in that segment group. They might swap a few in/out with their linkshell, but even one actual unknown player can totally screw your return. The same goes double for clear attempts.

So, it doesn't matter much that RP runs are easy, if finding segment group or getting the clears is still massively more prohibitive than any other content the game currently has to offer.

If they won't reverse it, isn't the most logical solution to solve this problem being empy +2/3 having good replacement stats for Nyame B? If 1-2 empy pieces has high wsd and attack, you don't have to 5/5 Nyame B depending on Jobs. Then some of these slots can use different paths.

I see horizontal progression being THE best solution to many issues we are facing now. People without an Odyssey group has alternative gears, Nyame C can be used etc...

So why are you people even arguing with me when I said vertical progression needs to go?

I highly doubt long time players like you or Cele prefers real vertical progression systrm aka FF14 anyways. It feels like you guys are arguing for the sake of wanting to "correct" my opinion only because it's not so positive, not because you people actually believe in vertical progression system being the best in FFXI.