Make Paladin Great Again

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Make Paladin Great Again
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By Nariont 2019-12-02 14:54:28  
While i agree that this alone is enough and itd need a full overhaul, its enmity is actually quite poor compared to run even if single target, not even factoring dd ability adding to hate that run can again do better it lacks a lot of spike abilities and its only spell for hate is flash and cure cheats. Aoe tagging its even worse as it has no good self hate move sides cure cheats which are split amongst targets anyway compared to run simply popping a foil/one of its mant JAs.

End of the day i doubt SE will add anything that fundamentally changes the job, least they can do is make it better at what its supposed to be able to do.
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By Shiva.Malthar 2019-12-02 15:05:34  
PLD is getting more enmity and more defense.
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By Asura.Tydis 2019-12-02 16:06:17  
Shiva.Malthar said: »
PLD is getting more enmity and more defense.
That would be the SE thing to do.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 16:19:46  
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
DirectX said: »
Asura.Kusamotu said: »
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Make atonement AOE (and also suck less)
Doesn't hitting mobs ruin super tanking?

Super tanking doesn't require hate management at all. Since hate can't be pulled off of the super tank.

But for situations where you have to have hate on multiple targets (ambuscade for example), one of the weaknesses pld has is AoE hate generation
What was it back in the day where you couldn't touch any mobs because then they'd eat healers etc? Was it just because we didn't have /BLU and ability to keep hate on loads of mobs at once?

It still feels like mobs which have taken some damage when a tank is super tanking are more likely to go for a healer than mobs which haven't been touched though, have experienced this in Ambus with poor PLD tanks.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-12-02 17:15:08  
DirectX said: »
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
DirectX said: »
Asura.Kusamotu said: »
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Make atonement AOE (and also suck less)
Doesn't hitting mobs ruin super tanking?

Super tanking doesn't require hate management at all. Since hate can't be pulled off of the super tank.

But for situations where you have to have hate on multiple targets (ambuscade for example), one of the weaknesses pld has is AoE hate generation
What was it back in the day where you couldn't touch any mobs because then they'd eat healers etc? Was it just because we didn't have /BLU and ability to keep hate on loads of mobs at once?

It still feels like mobs which have taken some damage when a tank is super tanking are more likely to go for a healer than mobs which haven't been touched though, have experienced this in Ambus with poor PLD tanks.
You can't super tank in ambuscade. Just to be clear, when I say supertank I mean tanking multiple mobs by relying on being agro'd by them and not actually on the mob's hate lists. So that no amount of curing from the healers will accumulate any enmity.

In this situation, anyone touching a mob would immediately get hate, get owned, and need cures. The healers would cure, and with the target having acted on the mob and got on their hate list, this would generate enmity and then the mob would go for the healer.

But in Ambuscade everyone is on all mobs hate list by default. So you can't just agro and let the mobs sit there on the tank. The tank has to maintain enmity on all targets.

And PLD has almost nothing to maintain hate on multiple targets with.(And recent discoveries have given even cure enmity a kick in the nuts there) You have to be /BLU, and then specifically be casting the AoE enmity spells. RUN will do it on accident just spamming foil and the occasional JA. So your poor PLDs probably didn't understand the enmity mechanics in ambu, and thought they could kick back and supertank.

Outside of Ambuscade it would depend on where the dmg on the mob came from. if the mob is at 99% from reprisal spikes, then it's still only agro'd and will stay glued to the PLD till someone acts on it. If someone acted on it directly, then the PLD would need to tag it and then maintain enmity. So in the latter case your statement would be true.
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By DirectX 2019-12-02 17:37:30  
Oh, of course yeah, that's why I saw it in Ambu. But outside ambu you can supertank without being on the hate list, and if they are tagged then it causes that same problem of them then being able to go for the healer?
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-12-02 17:56:22  
If they are tagged and the tank doesn't maintain enmity afterwards, or the tank wasn't the one to tag them, then you get issues when the healers cure them.
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By Sylph.Brahmsz 2019-12-02 19:05:14  
Felgarr said: »
No disrespect, but why do folks want job updates, new content and ability enhancements, but at the end of the day, WANT NOTHING to be MUST HAVE?
Look, how is Burtgang being today a sorta-must-have, or as a future-must-have different from an Epeo RUN TODAY? Come on.

Because Quality of Life changes through updates helps the broader player base, ie, your average and/or casual player who doesn't want to go all out. Also, Epeolatry while a game changing weapon for Rune doesn't necessarily mean that it is required to do the job correctly. Epeolatry simply gives the Rune more breathing room and gear possibilities.

Asura.Eiryl said: »
Do you guys not realize that PLD is good enough at enmity and survival. The only thing that keeps it from being used is that RUN has debuffs has (better)party buffs and is a DD that just happens to be unkillable.

Sub blu for all intents and purposes they're identical. As a super tank, as a single target tank, as /blu aoe holder, they're interchangeable.

Doing anything to the 2 things it's already adequate at, accomplishes nothing. No amount of shield skill, enmity+ , new spells/ja's are really going to do anything. To have any affect at all it needs a complete rework (not just the job, the game) Or obviously, nerf run, but apparently that's off the table these days and broken is the norm.

I would like to add that Paladin is perfectly fine with initial (and depending on ability use *sustained*) enmity generation via Sentinel, Rampart, Fealty, Shield Bash, and Palisade.

Rune Fencer achieves enmity generation (among other aspects) through different means and I honestly don't think the two should be made virtually identical just because they shine in different areas of combat.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-12-03 02:44:11  
Well, curaga, PLD is fixed boys.

Not even enmity or defense, but accession for cure. They definitely nailed exactly what PLD needed.

It's like they've been reading all the posts and you got exactly what you asked for, how amazing is that?
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By Nariont 2019-12-03 02:47:29  
well it got the bst/sch treatment, least it wasnt the NIN one
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By Valefor.Omnys 2019-12-03 04:24:11  
Sylph.Brahmsz said: »
The only thing that keeps it from being used is that RUN has debuffs has (better)party buffs and is a DD that just happens to be unkillable.

Sub blu for all intents and purposes they're identical. As a super tank, as a single target tank, as /blu aoe holder, they're interchangeable.

Almost seems sarcastic. RUN is a generally superior tank, while being a much better DPS and isn't too locked to a subjob. They bring all the best utility and options independent of subjob.

Paladin is roughly a 2010 tank in a 2020 world, and I only say 2010 because that's roughly when Ochain happened. In playstyle, it hasn't much changed in longer than that, except for pld/nin fading away.

Until Paladin gets some real mechanics updates, it's generally inferior across the spectrum of uses. RUN/BLU is simultaneously a better tank, utility, and DPS than sword/board pld/war, especially if the mob isn't facing the PLD. (off tank, Co tank, enmity flop)
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By DirectX 2019-12-03 04:29:17  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Well, curaga, PLD is fixed boys.

Not even enmity or defense, but accession for cure. They definitely nailed exactly what PLD needed.

It's like they've been reading all the posts and you got exactly what you asked for, how amazing is that?
Just what you need when using RNG BLM or SMN damage!
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By Sylph.Brahmsz 2019-12-03 05:40:54  
Valefor.Omnys said: »
Sylph.Brahmsz said: »
The only thing that keeps it from being used is that RUN has debuffs has (better)party buffs and is a DD that just happens to be unkillable.

Sub blu for all intents and purposes they're identical. As a super tank, as a single target tank, as /blu aoe holder, they're interchangeable.

Almost seems sarcastic. RUN is a generally superior tank, while being a much better DPS and isn't too locked to a subjob. They bring all the best utility and options independent of subjob.

Paladin is roughly a 2010 tank in a 2020 world, and I only say 2010 because that's roughly when Ochain happened. In playstyle, it hasn't much changed in longer than that, except for pld/nin fading away.

Until Paladin gets some real mechanics updates, it's generally inferior across the spectrum of uses. RUN/BLU is simultaneously a better tank, utility, and DPS than sword/board pld/war, especially if the mob isn't facing the PLD. (off tank, Co tank, enmity flop)
Uh... Directx wrote that, not me.
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By DirectX 2019-12-03 05:45:42  
I didn't write that anywhere wth?
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By Sylph.Brahmsz 2019-12-03 05:51:48  
Well I certainly didn't... Not sure why my name is quoted. lol

*Edit* Was Eyril.
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By DirectX 2019-12-03 05:58:35  
I'm even more confused why you associated it with me personally when you can read up and see I never wrote it.
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By Sylph.Brahmsz 2019-12-03 06:01:51  
Cuz its early and I haven't had my coffee.
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By Valefor.Omnys 2019-12-03 07:35:45  
Sylph.Brahmsz said: »
Uh... Directx wrote that, not me.

My bad, highlighted a segment I wanted to quote and clicked quote.

Thought it would pull his name, but it pulled yours. His quote box in your post. Sorry lol
 Shiva.Mlrlohki
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By Shiva.Mlrlohki 2019-12-05 01:52:17  
Well, AOE cures and banishga should help matters for hate at least. Better than just the Scythe tweak for DRK (though Scythe does need it bad).
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By Cerberus.Hideka 2019-12-23 09:16:57  
i havent played paladin in years, and only recently came back. i had an idea way back in the day that may be neat. Shield bash always felt kind of milquetoast in terms of what it should have been. The fact that paladin still doesnt have a "sword and shield" combo weaponskill, where you can only use it when wielding both a sword and shield kind of hurts my soul.

Trait: Shield Combat - Adds X% Chance to attack a target with your shield. the damage dealt scales with your shield class. Increases enmity on activation.

Make it do a shield bashing animation, that scales with your main hand weapon damage, relative to your shield class. Its base damage would be roughly half the value of a standard attack for its base- scaled up by shield type. Make it so it counts as a shield bash for purposes of triggering an afterglow effect. Think of it kind of like a Kickattacks or daken effect.

Give it a base 10% Proc chance. Have any explicit Shield bash damage + on gear, translate into 10% of their damage as activation rate. Let the aegis have a higher activation rate from its bash +, but not the bonus damage from bashing that the shield gives. any other +Bash effects would still increase the damage, as well as the rate. let the ochain, instead give a base value of 100% of base weapon damage instead of 50% to keep it sort of balanced with the aegis.

Make it so that the shield size scales the activation rates, with the larger the shield reducing the rate. Give a +20% for size 1, +15% For zize 2, +10% For size 3, +5% For zize 4, and +0% for size 5 (aegis), and for size 6 (ochain), give 0%.

This would put the Aegis at a 35% ish Rate, but 50% of an auto attack, and the Ochain at 15%, but 100% auto attack Damage.

Have the effect also give TP, that scales up the larger the shield size, with Aegis/Ochain giving about 100% of a standard auto attacks TP Value.

This means with job points, a paladin can get +200 Bash, for another +20% Rate, which would give the Aegis a 55% Chance to attack for 50% damage, and the Ochain a 30% activation rate for 100% of damage.

Make it so the Relic +3 hands, increase the modifier from 10% to 20% of damage into rate. That would make your job points give a massive 40% Rate of attack, and would bring aegis to a 97% Activation chance for 50% Damage, and Ochain to an end value of 53.5% at 100% damage. Would keep the two fairly balanced.

I would make it so the activation would also proc afterglow effects. This would give some real value add to both shields, and actually give some merit behind upgrading the ochain past 90.
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By Asura.Schroe 2020-01-21 17:09:31  
My 2 cents:

-Buff Atonement damage and increase the enmity. Make it do 2x weapon ilvl but have some crazy enmity bonus per tp spent. I don't care about doing the same damage as a RUN but give us an option to crank enmity analogous to their damage capabilities.

-Fix shield blocking. It's trash. Change the formula so +block gear is worthwhile, give us ilvl shields; anything at this point. Srivatsa should be a competitive shield and it's not.

-I like majesty(Awesome for keeping Alliances up, not so great for enmity gain.) Make a stance analogous to it for divine nukes/flash, that can't be used with Majesty. Also buff divine nuke enmity or damage. (I always felt something akin to Blinding Fulgor should have been in PLD's kit)

-Enmity boost to reprisal that is equivalent to Foil.

Edit:
-Cover. Many have mentioned this in the thread but it needs something to make it worthwhile. It just feels useless to me. Anyone with 2 brain cells uses -DT swaps, and the positional requirements are a pain in the ***.
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By Phoenix.Mikumaru 2020-01-21 18:23:39  
Asura.Schroe said: »
My 2 cents:

-Buff Atonement damage and increase the enmity. Make it do 2x weapon ilvl but have some crazy enmity bonus per tp spent. I don't care about doing the same damage as a RUN but give us an option to crank enmity analogous to their damage capabilities.

-Fix shield blocking. It's trash. Change the formula so +block gear is worthwhile, give us ilvl shields; anything at this point. Srivatsa should be a competitive shield and it's not.

-I like majesty(Awesome for keeping Alliances up, not so great for enmity gain.) Make a stance analogous to it for divine nukes/flash, that can't be used with Majesty. Also buff divine nuke enmity or damage. (I always felt something akin to Blinding Fulgor should have been in PLD's kit)

-Enmity boost to reprisal that is equivalent to Foil.

Edit:
-Cover. Many have mentioned this in the thread but it needs something to make it worthwhile. It just feels useless to me. Anyone with 2 brain cells uses -DT swaps, and the positional requirements are a pain in the ***.
-Atonement doesn't need anything, you just need to learn how it works. @1000-1999TP it doubles both CE and VE(1.0), 2000-2999 it increases it 2.5 times (1.5) and 3000TP triples (2.0). PLD isnt RUN, they function completely differently aside from being a tank. RUN has a higher appeal because it can add a little DPS if buffed out the *** and is easier to maintain hate with for lazy people.
-Shield Blocking is fine. Casual players got Priwen and they like it just fine. Want more? Make Ochain and Aegis. Srivatsa is a niche piece, most likely to try and give those players an option who want PLD to be competitive with RUN in terms of adding some DPS(yes PLD can deal similar DMG to RUN but again you need to invest time into gear and it locks your sub job to WAR).
-The only thing wrong with Majesty is it lasts 3 minutes. 5 would have been better. If you want to melee nook, play RDM.
-Reprisal is fine. Foil has more enmity because in the end, RUN bleeds more hate. The 640 VE it gives is enough to set up larger hate generators like massive Cures, Flash, Blank Gaze spam, and Jettatura all the while (with Ochain or Aegis or Priwen) bleeding little to no CE from all those 0 dmg blocked hits.
It takes some learning and a group willing to deal with a teething Tank but PLD gets alot of crap for no real reason other than it's not all flashy like RUN with the Resolutions, and Temper, and Runes and 3 rows of buffs. A well geared and skilled PLD can survive in situations where RUN will be just an MP sponge taking hits.
P.S I play both, I love both, but they fundamentally tank in different manners. Like SCHvBLM from the days of yore, they aren't competitors but siblings who are strong in their own right but become unstoppable when they work together.
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By Asura.Schroe 2020-01-21 21:16:18  
I know exactly how Atonement works. It is nowhere near comparable to Dimidiation or Resolution. Again I'm not asking for the same damage, I'm asking for comparable enmity output.

Shield block is not fine and LOL at Aegis blocking any important content.

I love majesty, just wish there were another "stance" for divine nukes/flash so I'm not locked to /BLU 99% of the time when I need to tank more than 1 target.

Either nerf Foil enmity or buff reprisal enmity. As it is now with Aegis on reprisal is near useless.

Phoenix.Mikumaru said: »
PLD gets alot of crap for no real reason other than it's not all flashy
It lacks the Utility of RUN, the damage output, the enmity output and most of all the Magic Evasion capability. It gets crap because compared to RUN it is crap.
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By Ruaumoko 2020-01-21 21:56:22  
Asura.Schroe said: »
-Cover. Many have mentioned this in the thread but it needs something to make it worthwhile. It just feels useless to me. Anyone with 2 brain cells uses -DT swaps, and the positional requirements are a pain in the ***.
Cover's main purpose isn't really mitigating damage others take, although that will save lives during NM Hundred Fists, it's more for its other effects which are actually seriously powerful.

Cover reduces the CE by 10% with each hit the Paladin intercepts and it also increases the Paladin's CE by +200. This means that ten hits being intercepted will completely floor the CE of the person who took hate and the Paladin's gained a fair bit of hate to help keep them off the top of the list.

Only patch Cover needs really are for it to be used across an alliance or Cover everyone behind the Paladin in a cone.
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By Asura.Schroe 2020-01-21 22:20:29  
I knew Cover had an effect on CE, I didn't know it was that drastic. Than you for telling me. I still wish it would affect the target within a 3' radius of you at least, or your suggestion such as a conal effect for multiple people.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2020-01-22 00:20:57  
Ruaumoko said: »
Asura.Schroe said: »
-Cover. Many have mentioned this in the thread but it needs something to make it worthwhile. It just feels useless to me. Anyone with 2 brain cells uses -DT swaps, and the positional requirements are a pain in the ***.
Cover's main purpose isn't really mitigating damage others take, although that will save lives during NM Hundred Fists, it's more for its other effects which are actually seriously powerful.

Cover reduces the CE by 10% with each hit the Paladin intercepts and it also increases the Paladin's CE by +200. This means that ten hits being intercepted will completely floor the CE of the person who took hate and the Paladin's gained a fair bit of hate to help keep them off the top of the list.

Only patch Cover needs really are for it to be used across an alliance or Cover everyone behind the Paladin in a cone.
The other issue here is that cover's enmity properties only activate if a hit was actually intercepted. Once hate is back in the PLD you cease to gain bonus CE on and no longer reduce the coveree's CE on hit.

This means that you can really only use cover to catch up to another player's enmity, and can't push their CE significantly below your own.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2020-01-22 00:40:30  
Phoenix.Mikumaru said: »
-Atonement doesn't need anything, you just need to learn how it works. @1000-1999TP it doubles both CE and VE(1.0), 2000-2999 it increases it 2.5 times (1.5) and 3000TP triples (2.0).
In an attempt to keep this clear and concise, I'm going to try to address one issue at a time and then allow for replies before moving to the next. I feel like too much of what I've tried to relay in our past exchanges is being lost in large multi point posts and replies.

I'm going to start with a correction to your Atonement enmity modifiers there.

Atonement's enmity mods are;

1k TP enmity x1. So no change at all.
2k TP enmity x1.5. so a 50% bonus.
3k TP enmity x2. +100% or double.

I do see that there's a sub section on the BG wiki Atonement page that incorrectly lists the cap for the enmity bonus as x3. This used to say x2 and was changed at some point, I suspect in error. I've sent a message to the person who made that edit and am awaiting a reply before updating the page.

About the TP scaling. WS TP scaling doesn't work in ranges like that. The listed values are anchor points, and TP values between those anchors will have a modifier in between those anchors.

For example if you used Atonement with 1500 TP, you could expect to have a 1.25 enmity modifier. This is halfway between the x1 and x1.5 anchors.

Questions, comments, objections?
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By FaeQueenCory 2020-01-22 08:43:28  
Asura.Schroe said: »
Either nerf Foil enmity or buff reprisal enmity. As it is now with Aegis on reprisal is near useless.
Or... Give PLD Foil too. (The fact that PLD only got Banishga I and not the whole suite of 1~3.... if not 4+5 too.... I have no idea what they were thinking. And I'm usually so good at orange and blue thinking.)

Ragnarok.Martel said: »
For example if you used Atonement with 1500 TP, you could expect to have a 1.25 enmity modifier. This is halfway between the x1 and x1.5 anchors.
Fun math fact, the full expression for Atonement's TP=>enmity modifier can be expressed as: ⨍TP = 0.0005 x TP + 0.5
Which does output a 1.25 for when TP = 1500.
I don't really see much use for it. But I suppose could use weirder TP values for Atonement enmity tests... Though why would you?
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By Shiva.Ariaum 2020-01-22 08:52:07  
Foil for pld makes no sense. Increasing emnity from reprisal would be more in line with the job. It does fine with the AoE cure thing imo. Though ppl used to make the same argument for nin 15 years ago too over pld. Atonement needs to be addressed on some level for sure though 10x dmg wouldn't be terrible, I'm sure they feel a ws that doesn't miss and does 15000(burt) is to op though.
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By Asura.Schroe 2020-01-22 10:22:18  
FaeQueenCory said: »
I have no idea what they were thinking
I don't understand giving banishga either. The damage is terrible. I really want a divine skill nuke rework or buff.
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