Make Paladin Great Again

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2010-06-21
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Make Paladin Great Again
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 Sylph.Brahmsz
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By Sylph.Brahmsz 2019-06-01 05:17:25  
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Just following up on this idea. There doesn't seem to be a hidden bonus of any sort that I can find on 20/20 JP Enlight II. Getting the expected +140 acc at 560 skill and 20/20 JP. No increase in atk. Or anything else easily observable. Not surprising, but was worth checking for.
Thanks for checking anyway.
Quote:
Double checked and [Endark JP category] is infact only +20 Accuracy. Mind you... this was back when people were still screaming "Nerf BLU" because Two-Handers (ie WAR+DRK) had really horrible accuracy and that +20 felt like a lifesaver. Ahhh... 2013~2016. What a long time ago...
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By Shichishito 2019-06-01 17:21:38  
page 6, is PLD great already?
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 Sylph.Brahmsz
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By Sylph.Brahmsz 2019-06-02 10:32:21  
I'm bored, and enjoy talking about reasonable ways/methods the developers could improve on a job. Even though I know they never will... It's cathartic.
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By Shichishito 2019-06-02 13:19:42  
Sylph.Brahmsz said: »
I'm bored, and enjoy talking about reasonable ways/methods the developers could improve on a job. Even though I know they never will... It's cathartic.

ikr, a lot of times its better than playing the game. doesn't even cost subscription fees.
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By Ruaumoko 2019-06-02 18:02:31  
To me, PLD needs any of these things to make it competitive.

Shield Mastery needs to have another effect added to it which increases CE/VE with each successful Shield block, sort of like a Ninja's Issekigan.

Shield Bash's reuse timer needs to be cut down to at least 1:00.

Divine Emblem's reuse timer needs to be cut down to at least 3:00.

Flash II, and make it AoE.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-06-02 18:05:18  
None of that really accomplishes anything, all nice things but doesn't fix anything

Now if, every time you shield block, everyone else's enmity drops, then you've got an answer.

Shield bash could be your autoattack, accomplishes nothing

The problem isn't really that PLD can't generate enmity, it's that everyone else can, and they just cap faster and faster every update
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By Afania 2019-06-02 23:04:52  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
None of that really accomplishes anything, all nice things but doesn't fix anything

This. But even if pld gets hate from DD 100% of time, lionheart dps in 6 man pt and gambit in dyna D wave 3 runs are still way too good to pass up. So enmity really isnt the issue here.

Give pld a JA that enhances alliance dps by 50% then we will all kick every run for a pld. But thats a dumb way to fix a tank job obviously. An alternative solution is nerf lionheart and gambit, but I doubt people are happy with that.

Enmity issue isnt THAT huge with magic ws meta, dirge and DD tanking imo.
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2019-06-02 23:07:54  
Cover already lowers the enmity for the intended target, so further enhancing that ability would accomplish that goal.
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By Shichishito 2019-06-02 23:23:55  
imho proper hate management is the baseline for any tank. pld needs something beyond just hate management that benefits the group and sets them apart from run.

since run is already strong in dding maybe the balance point could be run = risk/reward, pld = play it safe. dispel is runs weakness so new/extra buffs for pld should probably be avoided.

maybe a new type of flash that drastically reduces macc or att instead of acc for a short duration? maybe some debuff that turns the next aoe attack/debuff into a cure/debuff removal?

what ever pld gets it better be borderline OP cause imho run currently excels in almost everything over pld.
 Ifrit.Showmo
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2019-06-03 01:12:46  
Item level Aegis (and Ochain) would definitely be a step in the right direction for PLD.
I have no problem with RUN being the superior magic defense/status ailment resist tank. But when it exceeds at both magical and physical tanking at the same time, PLD is put in a bad spot (not including the higher DPS/enmity/utility issue).

Just a few things I'll make note of:
-With Ochain, PLD will take an excess amount of magical damage compared to RUN (while having great physical damage reduction, provided attacks come from the front).

-With Aegis, magical damage is reduced to reasonable levels, but shield block rate is floored to 5%-10%. Reprisal & Palisade are is multiplied against your current block rate, so it won't do much to boost the abysmal rate. Meanwhile, a job master RUN easily reaches a 24% parry rate without extra gear, regardless of enemy level (5% base + 19% Inquartata). With Turms Mittens/+1, RUN can recover 75-100 HP for free per parry. With Battuta, I've heard RUN can reach up to a 85%-95% parry rate with the right equipment.

-RUN reaches PDT II -75% while PLD can only reach PDT II -68%. (Burtgang -18%, Epeolatry -25%)

With item level shield skill on Aegis, I feel like that could help PLD close the gap on physical damage reduction, because right now, RUN pretty much excels at both. Of course there are other glaring issues, but let's be honest-- PLD is long overdue for their Relic/Empyrean shield upgrades. We're basically tanking level 130+ content with Lv99 shield skill.
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-06-03 11:51:11  
Ruaumoko said: »
To me, PLD needs any of these things to make it competitive.

Shield Mastery needs to have another effect added to it which increases CE/VE with each successful Shield block, sort of like a Ninja's Issekigan.

Shield Bash's reuse timer needs to be cut down to at least 1:00.

Divine Emblem's reuse timer needs to be cut down to at least 3:00.

Flash II, and make it AoE.
I want these things. SE, give me these things.

This issue with the block proc based effects, though, is that as soon as you have to equip Aegis you more or less cease to block. I still like the idea though. Aegis just needs a facelift.
Shichishito said: »
maybe a new type of flash that drastically reduces macc or att instead of acc for a short duration?
I really like this idea. PLD needs more meva anyway, and this would go a step further and help protect the rest of the party as well. Something PLD is not so great at anymore, despite protecting others being central to the job.

Key points though. It would have to actually land on high level foes. Something flash doesn't even manage at times now. Needs to be potent. And I'd like it to last at least 15~ seconds and be over-writable so you can maintain it with good flash recasts.
Ifrit.Showmo said: »
Reprisal & Palisade are multiplied against your current block rate,
Nice post. But a note on Palisade. While reprisal is a mulitpler on the current block rate, Palisade is not.

Palisade is a straight additive increase to your base block rate. I specify base there because Palisade counts as a part of the block rate that reprisal modifies(unlike block+ gear, Damn it) This means that the gains from Palisade are further increased with reprisal active.

Now for numbers. Palisade is a flat +30 to block rate. Base. Add JP and you've got +50. It's huge. Then hit reprisal and you're getting +75 block rate.

Palisade up is the one time Aegis might actually block for ***. But palisade duration is so very short, and the recast is long.

I'm not sure if I'm just forgetting or I still need to test, but I'm not sure how reprisal interacts with the block floor. I suspect that it like has to build from your base rate, even if you're below the floor. If this is the case, then when Aegis is below the floor, you're going to lose some of that palisade bonus while getting above the floor.
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By Shichishito 2019-06-03 13:06:22  
i think tanks need to be able to take damage from all sources, its a bare minimum just like enmity hate control. i'd even argue, considering how crippling debuffs in this game can be, that tanks should have some way to defend against those - run already has while pld suffers.

Quote:
With item level shield skill on Aegis, I feel like that could help PLD close the gap on physical damage reduction, because right now, RUN pretty much excels at both.

imho SE never opened ilvl upgrade paths for shields and instruments because those job rolls are crucial for most setups, the jobs unpopular and/or already pricy to gear.

its ridiculous to see a shield job take more damage than a great sword one but buffing its damage mitigation just to bring it on par with runs shouldn't be the main focus as long as pld doesn't have trouble surviving.
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By Nariont 2019-06-03 14:27:55  
As stated pld needs some adjustments to make it able to help others survive aswell as itself, run can give everyone a near constant ele dmg reduction, magic shield, epeo can even extend a 1 hit absorb. All pld gets is a magic ss via rampart thats gone as soon as it goes up generally.

Adjusting rampart, making cover able to eat a certain % of dmg from surrounding allie, full dmg when behind the pld, idk what they could do with Sentinel, if anything needs to be done at all.
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By cuddlyhamster 2019-06-03 15:57:21  
i would like to see pld getting something that makes them immune to hate reset. a job trait that lets them keep a little after a hate reset so mob doesnt run at the whm. or maybe adding it to an existing job ability like palisade or sentinel
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 Bahamut.Kirth
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By Bahamut.Kirth 2019-09-13 00:36:31  
So, as per the OP, is this ever getting posted to the official forums?
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2019-09-13 02:09:45  
I enjoyed re-reading this thread. So thanks for the bump. I need more PLD talk!

Now that SE is finished converting all the merit spells to scrolls, maybe we could have a PLD related update on the horizon? I mean, probably not, but I can hope at least.
 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-09-13 02:21:12  
Going to laugh if SE updates PLD and bases it around the "Two hands" trait and just lets them DD harder than RUN with a 2h sword.
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By Pandemonium.Zeto 2019-09-23 12:56:10  
R15 Calad PLD new meta yo
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By volkom 2019-09-23 13:28:23  
new pld trait ~ able to wield a 2h sword with a shield.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2019-09-23 14:09:00  
You mean dual wield shields.

Ochain/Aegis for the win!
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By Shichishito 2019-09-23 14:57:52  
volkom said: »
new pld trait ~ able to wield a 2h sword with a shield.
i think we already went over this.


is PLD already great again?
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By FaeQueenCory 2019-09-23 15:31:49  
They should buff Atonement.
Make the r15 augment +200 enmity instead of +100.
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 Caitsith.Mahayaya
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By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2019-09-23 16:05:58  
FaeQueenCory said: »
They should buff Atonement.
Make the r15 augment +200 enmity instead of +100.

Atonement so stronk
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By Taint 2019-09-23 16:21:18  
PLD already can’t die. The issue is that’s all it brings to the table.

PLD has three short comings.

AoE hate
DPS
Offensive party buffs

RUN has all three of those and can’t die either.

PLD could have permanent invincibility and people would still bring RUN.
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By Chimerawizard 2019-09-23 16:25:04  
give it a new trait.
10% of blocks deal 1000x damage taken back on the target.
add a debuff that makes all enemy conal and AoE attacks single target for 1min.
add a buff that doubles the pdif cap for those in range.
 Asura.Shiraj
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-09-23 16:31:09  
I've said this like 10000000 times, so i'll say it again even though people don't listen lol. PLD is ***. The only way to make PLD somewhat relevant is by nerfing RUN entirely.

I hear the old saying "RUN needs to be engaged to parry, RUN is only good because it parries". No you pleb, stop thinking that. RUN is literally unkillable with physical damage when it's engaged and when it is disengaged. Stop being a tool and believe PLD is better at tanking disengaged, you sound like Ronstadt when he said VIT is better than PDT.

PLD's VE and CE generation is *** compared to RUN's. Boosting PLD's VE does nothing, PLD doesn't struggle for VE, but RUN is just better at it. However, PLD struggles for CE more than it struggles for Magic Evasion.

Everyone just has to accept the fact that PLD is the lazy man's tank job that presses like 2 buttons and it's chilling.

I'm not even mentioning the DD side of it, we all know the winner is the non-PLD job.

Now stop beating a dead horse and go play RUN, and only play PLD for nostalgic and personal enjoyment purposes; the job sucks more than Cheg.


And before the PLD fanboys come in here. Have fun getting paralyzed off some level 103 ghost or some ***, idk.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-09-23 16:36:39  
Absolutely nothing you do or can think of doing is going to help pld short of giving it roll/song/bubble like effects. (unique? stackable?)

Or nerfing RUN. That works too.

Maybe giving PLD 500k HP and making excal 100% proc rate. and en-spirits actually works on enmity. maybe.

PLD vs RUN is like Xbow THF vs COR
 Pandemonium.Zeto
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By Pandemonium.Zeto 2019-09-23 21:04:06  
Xbow THF at least applies TH8.
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By Shichishito 2019-09-23 21:58:52  
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