Make Paladin Great Again

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Make Paladin Great Again
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 Asura.Highwynn
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By Asura.Highwynn 2019-05-10 16:58:09  
Odd that they dropped support for NIN being a Tank, given the enmity on their JSE, their tank stance, partying and evasion skill, tactical parry, and the parry job ability skill, and all the shadows and migawari. Oh well. Half their kit was aimed at tanking.
 Asura.Highwynn
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By Asura.Highwynn 2019-05-10 17:04:57  
Having played FFXIV for a few years and reading descriptions of skills and spells in XI, I'm so shocked at the state of some jobs. Like after 17 years, Shield Bash is still a 3 min ability that does like 20-250 damage? Couldn't they just make it equivalent to like a Jump or a mini weapon skill or something where it deals weapon damage with a modifier? So it's at least equivalent somewhat to a Swipe/Lunge? Maybe make it based on the PLD's defense or VIT. They're never adding new job abilities because the cap has been reached (12 per job was the limit they said?) so why not retool some of them so they're not ridiculously useless. I know shield bash is a hate tool, but when I see screenshot of people doing 40-60k weapon skills on the regular now, I laugh at 25 damage shield bash. There's so many job abilities in this game that need to be updated. Rampart is pointless, Divine Emblem is pointless except for an occasional big damage Holy II or whatever. They could retool Banish spells and make them deal tremendously more damage on PLD, give PLD passive traits that reduce damage that stacks with what they have, make Enlight damage count for enmity, Make rampart give a boost against ailments or even remove one ailment per target (just basic -na ones) etc
 Asura.Shiraj
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-05-10 17:07:38  
Yeah dude PLD got hosed for past recent years. Other jobs such as RUN and COR are pimped AF from what they used to be. Some jobs just got left behind and forgotten about and others were greatly buffed.
 Asura.Tuvae
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By Asura.Tuvae 2019-05-10 17:10:21  
Asura.Highwynn said: »
Having played FFXIV for a few years and reading descriptions of skills and spells in XI, I'm so shocked some at the state of some jobs. Like after 17 years, Shield Bash is still a 3 min ability that does like 20-250 damage?

Its a stun move... dmg is a secondary thing.
 Asura.Highwynn
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By Asura.Highwynn 2019-05-10 17:11:22  
COR was always God tier. I remember wildfire days, and COR being a good DPS with last stand and giving crazy good buffs.
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 Asura.Highwynn
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By Asura.Highwynn 2019-05-10 17:14:19  
Asura.Tuvae said: »
Asura.Highwynn said: »
Having played FFXIV for a few years and reading descriptions of skills and spells in XI, I'm so shocked some at the state of some jobs. Like after 17 years, Shield Bash is still a 3 min ability that does like 20-250 damage?

Its a stun move... dmg is a secondary thing.


Is stun on a 3 minute timer really something that needs to exist in this game with its current pacing? Especially considering many NMs resist Stun? Also DRKs have stun and weapon bash. Anyway it takes up an entire job ability slot and it has 1 use. I'm of the mind that every job ability should be scrutinized for usage. Like the circle/killer abilities. They're worthless 95% of the time, could it kill them to throw something on them? Atk+5% or something? Abilities that can't be used in a fight or have 1 use and don't do anything else should be looked at and buffed. Like shield bash could be a 30 second recast and not be broken imo.

Hell look at thief. Steal mug flee hide. 4 skills that have almost 0 use in any kind of endgame fight. They could be retooled to be more useful or add damage skills that share timer recast with the so they could add more interesting damage skills or debuff skills instead. ***is outdated. You can't mug or steal anything worthwhile in ambuscade (aura steal occasional buff if you're lucky)
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 Asura.Shiraj
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By Asura.Shiraj 2019-05-10 17:14:29  
Nah dude COR is honestly amazing right now. SE loves COR the past year or so. Their gear updates are *** insane, man.
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By Shichishito 2019-05-10 17:16:43  
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Here is the absolute only way to fix pld. Nerf RUN. RUN is better at absolutely everything. unquestionably. even supertanking. It should NOT be a top tier DD either.

Here's the only realistic way to buff PLD. Make it a luopon/bard. "If pld in party all party members have 50% DT and huge meva and maxhp+ and status resist+"

That won't fix pld, but it will give a reason to pick pld instead of settle for pld.

there are only 2 tanks in the game in contrast to other classes like DD. in this case you don't face the situation where one job stands out OP and you have to nerf him or do lots more work by buffing all the others.

in that scenario its very well justified to buff PLD over nerfing RUN even though i agree RUN as a full fledged tank should not be able to deal high tier damage.

i think it would require to add new job abilities/traits and/or drastically adjust its current ones. they'd have to get realy creative.
 Asura.Chaostaru
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By Asura.Chaostaru 2019-05-10 20:25:53  
meanwhile... just finished making a burt.
:feelsbad:

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By Shichishito 2019-05-10 20:27:02  
taru sacrifice works on any job, you'll be fine.
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By Asura.Swaggernaught 2019-05-10 22:45:58  
Asura.Shiraj said: »
Yeah dude PLD got hosed for past recent years. Other jobs such as RUN and COR are pimped AF from what they used to be. Some jobs just got left behind and forgotten about and others were greatly buffed.
The enmity patch after mid seeker's fixed paladins for quite a while to be honest. give me a time during Early SOA where u never used paladin durinb delve 1.0 pre item buff
 Sylph.Brahmsz
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By Sylph.Brahmsz 2019-05-11 10:14:02  
To be honest, I think PLD should be made more like RUN. Just flipping the gimmicks around.

Shield blockrate is broken for one thing, giving PLD a trait similar to Inquartata that raises the floored blockrate from 5% to say 15% (unlock higher tiers via Job Points to 18~19%) and that at least helps Aegis a bit.

I agree that PLD should get Foil, or at least a secondary enmity spell equivalent to it. Being highly dependent on Subjob abilities/spells has been a legitimate detriment for years now.

On a final note, while I don't have high hopes for Empyrean Armor +2/3, it would be nice if they update it so you can mix and match in a piece or two. The legs in particular with Reduced Enmity Loss when taking damage I always thought would be great piece if their overall stats were not so low now.
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By Nariont 2019-05-11 11:03:04  
Just make the foil equivalent enmity retention for the same duration, alternatively lower reprisals duration/recast and make that your foil if you cant add/make new spells, its already got nice ve on it, just slap some ce on it
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 Valefor.Ophannus
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By Valefor.Ophannus 2019-05-13 16:00:49  
The other issue with PLD seems to be its damage.


-Fencer traits up to tier VI.

-Make Divine Emblem a buff that lasts for 30 seconds instead of 1 spell, so PLD can drop some heavy Holy damage and enmity with Holy, Holy II, Banish II, and Flash. Reduce recast to 5min.

-Fix Enlight so its added effect accrues Enmity.

-Shield Bash: Add a 5 second Attack Down/Magic Attack Down in addition to the stun, make it a 1 min recast, and buff its damage dramatically so it scales reasonably with level/VIT/Defense (making it do a 2k damage at 99 isn't asking for much considering how much damage RUN gets with Swipe/Lunge). Makes it useful for tank busters.

-Buff the hell out of Reprisal's enmity, making it like Foil, and heals the PLD's HP/MP when they block.

-Do something with PLD's Banish spells. Maybe add a really powerful debuff that lessens damage taken by the enemy's main target.

-Rampart should just be an ApE Stoneskin for Magic AND Physical.

-Cover should have an instant Collaborator-like effect on your target, stealing 50% of their enmity regardless of their position.

-Chivalry revamped completely. Restores 25% of your MP and grants a decaying 100% DA that decays over 30 seconds. Recast reduced to 5 min. Merit points increase MP restored by 2% and lessens DA decay rate.

I understand RUN should be a better DPS than PLD, but the difference shouldn't be day vs night. PLD could get a few things not unlike PLD from FFXIV, and some of these changes would boost their dps.
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By Asura.Swaggernaught 2019-05-13 16:51:31  
Valefor.Ophannus said: »
The other issue with PLD seems to be its damage.


-Fencer traits up to tier VI.

-Make Divine Emblem a buff that lasts for 30 seconds instead of 1 spell, so PLD can drop some heavy Holy damage and enmity with Holy, Holy II, Banish II, and Flash. Reduce recast to 5min.

-Fix Enlight so its added effect accrues Enmity.

-Shield Bash: Add a 5 second Attack Down/Magic Attack Down in addition to the stun, make it a 1 min recast, and buff its damage dramatically so it scales reasonably with level/VIT/Defense (making it do a 2k damage at 99 isn't asking for much considering how much damage RUN gets with Swipe/Lunge). Makes it useful for tank busters.

-Buff the hell out of Reprisal's enmity, making it like Foil, and heals the PLD's HP/MP when they block.

-Do something with PLD's Banish spells. Maybe add a really powerful debuff that lessens damage taken by the enemy's main target.

-Rampart should just be an ApE Stoneskin for Magic AND Physical.

-Cover should have an instant Collaborator-like effect on your target, stealing 50% of their enmity regardless of their position.

-Chivalry revamped completely. Restores 25% of your MP and grants a decaying 100% DA that decays over 30 seconds. Recast reduced to 5 min. Merit points increase MP restored by 2% and lessens DA decay rate.

I understand RUN should be a better DPS than PLD, but the difference shouldn't be day vs night. PLD could get a few things not unlike PLD from FFXIV, and some of these changes would boost their dps.


you know u can spam Reprisal now thats not the problem, Pld barely has any good TP gear with DMT, Acc and attack is not what u need with DMT, now days u need High hp double and triple attack including Damage taken, they need to buff KOTR CDC, and Atonement 2. i like Divine emblem idea,fencer and bash tho

not to mention that some of the best CDC items for paladin has no defensive stats has no evasion or magic evasion, other then some pieces of ambuscade,
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-05-13 16:54:45  
NIN "main tank Omen" isn't really an achievement. Any DD can tank Omen bosses. NIN can tank a couple of pretty neat fights, including this month's ambuscade. Fudo Masamune Path C or Mythic allows it to reach some very high enmity levels when used with Utsusemi + Yonin, so it has some useful tools when it is tanking one primary target. It's main weakness is aoe magical damage, which can be somewhat offset using Kendatsuba+1 set. It suffers in supertanking, since its only defense is it's shadows, and will not be able to maintain that and enmity for long. I have stepped into a hybrid backup tank role on Halphas when the entire alliance of front line jobs wiped, so it's feasible to tank on NIN in some places. It does satisfactory in not getting hit, but it will get wrecked if you're not quick with timing shadows and such. It's way below anything RUN or PLD can tank, though.
 Valefor.Ophannus
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By Valefor.Ophannus 2019-05-13 16:59:57  
Such a shame since NIN was built as a tank for many years, recieving the tank stance, loads of enmity gear, parrying traits, shadows, etc. They could have kept them as an evasion tank and gave them AoE hate tools and stuff instead of being what it is now which is a psuedo THF etc.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-05-13 17:12:29  
NIN is still an evasion tank to an extent, but is entirely useless on anything that wipes shadows. If you take that small weakness out, NIN is fine. It can't tank groups for reasons I mentioned above, but I am kind of okay with it being a single target tank, since it really can crank out some good dps numbers simultaneously. If NIN was granted a few tiers of Inquartata, or dare I say equal to Rune's parrying rate, it would be more feasible for group tanking a bit easier, because you'd retain shadows for longer. Issekigan is cool, I guess, but it's short duration. Really just need to address shadows wiping to [everything], and then it's back in the tanking discussion. That aside, it's really not a bad single target tank at all.

I don't even really like the idea that Inquartata is basically RUN-only. They need to expand that trait to NIN and PLD.
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By soralin 2019-05-13 17:12:30  
Honestly I cannot fathom why Paladin of all jobs doesn't have Fencer.

Take fencer away from Warrior (they dont even use it for christ sakes) and give it to paladin, and give us Foil.

Those two changes alone will level the playing field tremendously. It wont be a perfect balance but man it would go far.
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By Lili 2019-05-13 18:15:36  
soralin said: »
Take fencer away from Warrior (they dont even use it for christ sakes) and give it to paladin, and give us Foil.



I support PLD having some level of Fencer but I use the heck out of Fancer on WAR. Few WARs do use it because they have no idea what it can do, but those of us who do make good use of it - it's nichey and doesn't work everywhere, but a war wearing relic hands +3 with Defender up, a set with 50%, and Sword+Shield, is a super hybrid tank build with amazing DPS.

So pls no take ok ty
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By soralin 2019-05-13 18:25:45  
Everytime people bring up the blurred shield + defender combo, someone else comes in saying thats nice and all but retaliation just does the same job but better and always outparses and out tanks.

Its my understanding though it looks good at first, there exist alternatives that just perform far better than blurred shield.
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By Siren.Kyte 2019-05-13 19:15:17  
Taking Fencer away from Warrior would also be a pretty big nerf to BST. I find it entertaining how people often criticize SE for making adjustments that fail to identify every repercussion when most of the player-base suggestions are magnitudes more problematic.
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By Nariont 2019-05-13 19:18:02  
i dont see why it needs to be taken away in the 1st place, if anything it should be spread around more
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By eliroo 2019-05-13 19:19:04  
How would removing Fencer from Warrior nerf BST?
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By Chimerawizard 2019-05-13 19:20:47  
iLv R&E shields
remove shield bash as an ability
let PLD dual wield shields
*shield bash is the auto-attack when dual wielding
add Shield 'weaponskills'.
give PLD native dual wield.
*make sure dual wield reduces shield bash delay.

enemy constantly stays stunned with a PLD tank. winning
Siren.Kyte said: »
most of the player-base suggestions are magnitudes more problematic.
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By Nariont 2019-05-13 19:21:11  
cause a lot of their heavy hitting pets are single wield warrior job pets, removing fencer removes a nice chunk of their TP bonus
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By eliroo 2019-05-13 19:25:16  
Does taking away passives from jobs usually effect the pets? That is pretty wild if it does.
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By Lili 2019-05-13 20:22:05  
soralin said: »
Everytime people bring up the blurred shield + defender combo, someone else comes in saying thats nice and all but retaliation just does the same job but better and always outparses and out tanks.

Its my understanding though it looks good at first, there exist alternatives that just perform far better than blurred shield.

I apologize for the derail, I promis I'm not going to hijack the thread :P

First, Retaliation works in conjunction with Sword+board, not as an alternative. What it does is it provides good TP gain in spite of not having capped delay reduction and fighting in DT set. However, it does not do as much for 2h builds as it does for 1h, for two reasons:
1) Retaliation proc rate is dependent on main weapon delay, with lower delay weapons having an higher proc rate, and 1h weapons have lower delay than 2h, obviously.
2) WAR already has 5 hit 2hand builds with capped dt and 84% DA. WAR 2-handed 100% DA could even be considered a 3-hit in a way, WS + 2 melee rounds to next WS. In turn, the same DT set becomes 9 hit with Reikiko and 10 hit with Naegling.
This, along with the fact that unless there's a DNC main in the party, 1h WAR does not have capped delay reduction, and you can see how Retaliation procs do much more for 1h build than 2h as far as WS frequency goes - it "only" provides higher TP to 2h.

Second, Retaliation does nothing at all for damage mitigation, which is what having a shield equipped does, if minimally so - but minimally so is more than nothing at all, so it's a net gain. Blurred Shield is just bis for WS damage, tho it has Shield skill and block rate+. Best tanky shield would actually be Adapa Shield, but it's rarely needed. When the Reprisal procs it's hilarious. Defender is only there to activate Relic hands, most of the time I don't even bother with it. I was using it to tank last month's ambu tho, lots of fun and a few scares when the WHM was a bit slow. Of course nobody is going to tank wave2 NMs with sword and shield anytime soon, but it's plenty effective for Ambuscade, Omen, and most of Geas Fete.

Third, Savage Blade is absolutely bonkers - with capped Fencer and Moonshade, you're going to ws at 1880 TP at the bare minimum, with 50% WSD and 60-65% DA. That's 15.25-17.25 fTP, 17.53-19.83 with Naegling, depending on how many DA you get. By comparison, R15 Chango Upheaval is ~10 ftp or so. Plus, in low buff situations where attack is not capped, SB has such an high modifier that still performs really well, potentially putting out more DPS than R15 Chango in spite of uncapped delay reduction - tho Chango will still win with perfect buffs/MS.

Result:
WAR with Sword+Shield and capped DT is crazy sturdy (for a non-tank of course) and puts out silly spike damage at an acceptable frequency. It's a build that requires a bit of optimization in playstyle and a few toggles, but it's not dependent on subjob and can be swapped in on a whim when things are going south or if your PUG tank can't hold hate against you/has died for whatever reason - tho in that case you better hope your WHM is on his best day, because nobody will be able to rip hate from you ever again until you die - and it gets even better when you're missing fundamental buffs or are soloing stuff (which WAR can totally do, against what lots of people think).

Fencer WAR is greatly underrated, but has lots, lots of potential.
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By Fayona 2019-05-14 09:58:48  
I think the issue with PLD right now is just why would I want to come PLD, I have both Rune and PLD leveled. Rune is mastered because it’s just more fun to play. In most instances I can stick in hybrid set and drop resolutions for 25-50k on the regular. The only time I feel compelled to bring pld is when I’m dual boxing and I need to be off screen a lot to handle my other character with somemthing that can’t be done with /send macros

Tbh I loved pld in the 75 days however I think our cures were capable of generating a lot more enmity back then. It’s kind of like DD power creep has shot up significantly but the amount of enmity generated by plds cures hasn’t. Additionally VD ambus are just way faster when the tank can still parse 20-30%. I’m not really sure how they plan on fixing pld and ninja but I’d be thrilled if they were able to.
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