Dev Tracker - Discussion

I thought this way at first, but after doing a few different NMs, it's actually a great way to illustrate what every job uniquely brings to the table. Jobs like MNK, SAM, BLU, NIN, DRG DNC etc flourish without a support job, because they don't require additional things to "complete" them. MNK gets martial arts, SAM gets hasso, BLU can self cap, NIN/DNC DW, DRG wyvern. But then other jobs, like PUP, RNG, COR, DRK, WAR have other notable advantages, like being able to dps from far, hateless, support puppet, or the versatility of weapons. BST also gets to shine a little bit because they can afford to use more master/pet builds and change out their pets according to what is needed.

It was a goofy implementation, but it's actually kind of interesting seeing what kinds of setups people use to accomplish things. The no support job restriction just forces you to be more creative. I kind of don't mind it.

RDM has a helluva role in Gaol as well, if given the chance and you've got someone who's built all the aspects of the job.

I shouldn't have left RDM out, but you are correct. Insane swiss army knife. Dia is invaluable, debuffs are amazing, can use clubs, daggers, swords, magical ws, nuke from far, cure a little, buff support. It is truly a job that shines without any support job at all.

Again, I just like seeing good players utilize all of their tools on main jobs, vs just sub ninja, spam savage blade and keep up shadows.

I've barely done any Gaol, but I was fairly amused with how well RDM with Murg does without dw. I'm sure Crocea does well on anything you can hit with sanguine blade.

As a Murg owner (1st rmea, passion project so leave my questionable decision alone!), couldn't agree more. Not to mention bursting on your own chains is quite viable and at times valuable in there for proc reasons, not just damage.

Buukki said it best- RDM gets to be its swiss-army knife self when everyone else can't rely on subjobs.

It's the main issue event-based LS are having.
I could split our alliance in 2 or 3 parties (granted that it's a HUGE headache to do it, but sure, I'll try my best).
But when you can't store more than 1 KI on the moogle what do you do, expect people to farm segments on their own once a day during the week to be ready on event day to pop NMs?

C'mon this is 2021, that won't work.


Letting us store more KIs would be a good start, I guess.

As someone who plays pet jobs as often as I can, I agree with this. Path D would be huge, and assuming these are the augments for all 5 major armor slots +25% pet damage for BST would be killer, especially if it applies to all hits of multihit Ready moves. We don't have any mechanic like SMN's +BPDmg. It's just very hard to justify because path A is tremendous for BST TP, especially with Aymur, and also DRG TP, especially with Ryunohige. But on the other hand path B for WAR would be so nice for Savage Blade/Mistral Axe and maybe Upheaval, even.

I don't like this system in general. Make it so the gear augment path can be changed at any time without losing rank, like the mezzotined stuff from Escha, or remove the "Rare" tag. Because as it is now choosing paths will be a hard choice for people who play multiple jobs at endgame.

I respect your point of view but I think it's just a desperate attempt to see the glass half full :-P

Then again: I'm not too bothered by the lack of SJ gameplay-wise and I apreciate the creativity it brings, I'm just saying it's a very bad game design choice given the core elements of FFXI circle around the choice of main and sub job.


Furthermore: the lack of SJ will become a serious issue once/if ever they gonna start making the successive runs desirable (like with an RP multiplier or something).
Not having SJs on the third run could be pretty annoying, and more like "forcing" players to do certain things, rather than stimulate creativity

If they're looking for a way to incentivize people to do 2-3 NM's, perhaps that is by allowing subjobs to unlock after successfully completing one or more.

Zero thought behind this. Simply off the top of my head. You'd still have to plan since your first set of jobs are locked (assuming they don't lock them as subs), but I'd personally consider doing a second and third if I at least could make some of the remaining jobs/setups more feasible by giving them a needed subjob. I personally tend to agree with Buukki that it does mandate strategy and highlight the niche/job-specific abilities that are overlooked when subjobs come into play. However, my general appreciation of that goes out the window the moment I enter and immediately remember that my BRD loses its dual wield.

Although, another much-simpler option may simply be to induce some level of "chaining" RP by successive kills while in Gaol. If NM's 2 and 3 got a slight boost, it'd also make it more tempting to consider remaining.

What do you mean "very bad game design choice"? Can you give me examples of fights that require you to have a certain support job to even have a chance? This is starting to sound like hyperbole. The lack of a support job is hindering (not surprising in a zone called HELL JAIL), but not really that big of a deal. What exactly are you lacking in a support job that you can't make up for in other ways?


Why do we keep referring to imaginary future scenarios that COULD happen and link that into why the current system is a problem? We haven't even gotten there yet, and there's no indication that there will ever be a 3-boss bonus, because thus far, the only time it's been mentioned was from players. SE never once acknowledged this as being a plan for the future. Not saying it WON'T be, but it sounds like you're trying to find more problems with the setup of Gaol. I still would like to hear which jobs are severely hampered by the lack of a support job. Mage jobs not being able to access -na spells (like stona) is one example that readily comes to my mind. The rest you can work around.

Murg wins all the style points and even does piercing autos. There's nothing questionable about it so long as you're on RDM a fair amount.

I did Excal first when dyna was changed the first time, but Murg was my first mythic and Gastra was my second. I regret nothing about either.

If that skillchain dmg is on all pieces with those path B augs omg. Universal ws set for all jobs for all wses???? Obviously a bit of an exaggeration but 45% wsd, 15 double attack, probably like 25-30 sc dmg...

They need to at least put in a porter moogle.

Those are all valid points, which I don't disagree with. I was more questioning why the lack of support jobs was that big of a deal. Yes its arbitrary and dumb. But it's not nearly as inhibiting as same-job restrictions. You could argue it exacerbates the same-job restriction dilemma, but comparing the two, the lack of support jobs is really a minor issue.

Like completing NM1 with job "X" unlocks X as a SJ for NM2 and 3?
Could be a really nice idea, not enough to promote successive runs though I'm afraid.


I meant what I said before, I can't give you examples because it's not a thing that I think is gonna affect the game too much, It's more a conceptual thing.

FFXI is a game that has a single element at its core: being able to pick your job and your sj.
Taking this away means going against that core concept around which your whole game is built.

Can it be fun and balanced? Absolutely, but it's still against that concept and I don't like it for that reason.
It's like if next end game event you're locked at level 30.
Could it be fun? Oh I'm sure it could. Despite the issues, I loved doing level 30 capped content 15 years ago, like Promys.

But that was a different era and it was mostly related to a couple of side stuff, rather than a proper end game activity. Granted that it's hard to compare 1:1 nowadays' FFXI vs old one.

Anyway this was just an example, don't read too much into it. It was just to say that I'm sure they could make a lot of silly things fun to play, but that doesn't mean I would necessarily judge them as good, coherent game design concept-wise.

18 geared up jobs among 6 people, not for every single player willing to participate in consecutive runs.

It's a taxing requisite, but it's not really THAT demanding, given how much many of us have been playing. Would be more of an issue for new players I guess.


Then again, if they don't provide benefit in doing so, why even bother?

I get your point. But I would agree with your statement above that FFXI has changed a lot over the years, and that "core" element is no longer as foundational as it once was. Back in the 75 cap days, support jobs meant a lot. Now with so much gear creep and defensive options, idk, support jobs are really kind of interchangeable. You use them for like 1-2 things. Remove them, and you got 800 meva to cover your ***.

SC and MB is what gave this game it's identity. You don't care about that, you'd be playing FFXIV. Job and sub is what keeps you from WoW.

I also hate the subjob restriction. It really highlights how lacking some jobs are without the system in place.

PLD with no sub. Enmity actions: a few JA with really long recasts. Flash... and cures. My cure cheats are making a hard comeback.

So.. SE, about those PLD updates...

Roughly. I conceptualized it a bit more broadly as unlocking all sub jobs. So, completing NM1 with Jobs 1-6 still lock Jobs 1-6 for main job, but all jobs become unlocked for sub jobs, generally.

Unlikely to be implemented, and despite my personal anguish mentioned above, I'm still not certain that I would like to see subjobs implemented. I believe that, as Buukki mentioned, allowing the jobs to shine in the manners that make them different jobs in the first place is unique and begrudgingly-refreshing (Think PLD vs RUN vs PUP vs NIN tanks and the jobs you'd need or want to surround each with, for instance).

With that said, I'll echo what appears to be a plurality consensus that SE needs to incentivize killing more than one NM per run aside from queue-related issues or an individual simply not having segments for more than three KI.

A chain-RP bonus seems like the most logical/sensible change without breaking the concept itself. It promotes gearing at least three jobs as well as planning ahead and utilizing varied strategies in return for a bonus if successful. Those that don't want to chance losing with less-meta setups can simply leave and forego the bonus. But I'll admit that I'm a bit late to the party on this particular talking point.

I agree with Buukki on this one. It's nice to see you have to strategize and pick the right setup. Cant throw the same boring 6 at the problem.

Don't forget that there just not enough jobs for some purposes if you remove two of them. For example, once you've used up SCH amd WHM as your healers, your group can no longer use Erase and -na spells because of no subjobs.

Clearly they want us to use SMN with Leviathan/Carbuncle while RDM mainheals! Lmao

Panacea and Remedies everywhere! And hope the thing you're trying to remove with a Remedy isn't paralyze. -_-;

Blu have 1400 aoe heals and strong single target cures too and aoe erase, no -na tho. PUP can probably use WHM auto to cure/na/erase tho? Also DNC can both cure and erase/most -na with waltzes, but thats kinda limited. If you use combination of those jobs tho, like DNC and BLU for example, it should be possible.

EDIT: and if you use meds on top of that like MArtel suggested, its even more possible.

What is the benefits to not just exiting and resetting the job pools? I know different setups will shine, but if you exit/enter between bosses you will always get whm back (for example)