Changes To Vagary?

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Changes to Vagary?
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-04-20 13:40:40  
As some of you may know, I've been leading a Vagary linkshell for over 10 months, and since that time we've managed to get many players their clears. We've had no success in getting platemails to drop from Plouton, or from the Random option (outside any campaigns .. although they don't drop much during either), and several parts of the event are too difficult for casual players to beat.

On the time of release, the content was designed to be difficult for the best players FFXI has to offer. But since then, Reisenjima and other NMs have become the new "hard" content, while Vagary remains unchanged. I have read some stories of players having great difficulty getting their Empyrean reforged unlocked because no one runs Vagary on their server; or if they do, are not good at running the event.

So I'm looking for some help on this one. Please join me on the official forums and submit your stories. We're not looking to flood servers with Platemails .. we're not looking to make Vagary a pushover .. all we're looking for is fairness, making the event more accessible to those who need clears, and to give decent incentive for those who continue to run the event after getting everything. Vagary should remain an event the player base can enjoy.

You can view the post in the link below. Thanks for reading.
Vagary Woes - Increasingly More Difficult To Run. Lack Of Incentive.
 Leviathan.Brotherhood
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2016-04-20 14:26:36  
How is it hard? What do you run with to get clears? I see no reason for this post to exist
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 Ragnarok.Primex
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By Ragnarok.Primex 2016-04-20 15:00:21  
cleared this ***on my first day back in delve gear... why is it hard?
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By Boshi 2016-04-20 15:05:39  
"masters of Vagary"
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By Brynach 2016-04-20 15:22:36  
Agreed.. topic sounds like a lot of "woe is me". I run my ls thru all clears on Mondays. While we haven't seen a mail drop there, I have had at least 5 get T mail from the campaign. We know its a low drop rate. Take a motrin, drink some water and march on.
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By Sylph.Systematicchaos 2016-04-20 15:24:01  
I love the second post on the official forums. "The PLD had hate, but someone pulled hate and died. Plz make it so I can't pull hate."

Is it really that hard to understand that Vagary doesn't allow supertanking?
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By Draylo 2016-04-20 15:24:43  
Vagary is not hard.. lol. Seems like you are asking for it to be completely soloable for everyone(which people already have done.)
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 Sylph.Oraen
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By Sylph.Oraen 2016-04-20 15:42:42  
I'll try to address the major points of your post.

Honestly, if at this point in the game Vagary is still a difficult clear, your shell should stop doing it and improve their gear massively. I understand the Rancibus zone to a certain degree, as that one has always been frustrating, but if you have an entire alliance and and are unable to clear the waves effectively, either your gear or tactics need an enormous overhaul. One BLU and an AFK GEO can clear every wave, usually with one spell. Are you lacking AoE damage? Do you single target rather than group them up for kills? Do you magic burst down the bosses (sans Brimboil) or just free nuke? I'm just having difficulty understanding the issue when I know this can be cleared with a minimum of three yet you have an entire alliance. Yes HP does scale, but adding 15 more people easily makes up for that.

Tartarus Platemail is nice, sure, but so is Sulevia +1 body. So is Souveran body. Even Emicho Haubert is pretty good. Jumalik Mail isn't half bad, either. If it solely comes down to cosmetics, then I get it. But if you're looking for actual gear improvements, there are so many comparable or superior options that are infinitely more attainable. I'm not going to argue that the droprate is stupidly low, we all know that. But so is the drop rate on D ring, and we continue to allow it or just move on.

Adding in the ward system was the best improvement they made to the system. It allowed for clear and measurable rewards after a certain amount of work was put in. Expanding on that simply for one item seems to be excessive. We already know that if we put in the work and get all the wards, we'll get a guaranteed reward. In my opinion, that's enough, and far better than other systems in the game (Reisenjima augments, Sinister Reign).

As for people moving on after getting what they needed from the event, that's a good thing. Remaining on the exact same content for ten months is an absurd hindrance on your progression. One night of Vagary can get your members their AF3 +1 unlocks, and allow them to then look to Ru'Aun and then Reisenjima gear instead.

Moving on to Plouton/Perfidien...what is difficult about the MB requirements? When we ran Vagary, any two melee with capped haste could easily manage chaining for the pop requirements. You DO NOT NEED samurais. Not at all. Anybody who says you do is flat out wrong. Bring 2 BLUs, 2 DNCs, 2 of literally any melee job with max haste. If that fails, bring a COR for samurai's roll. If people are incapable of self chaining with SAM roll and capped haste, I don't know of any way to fix that.

Also, what is so difficult to understand about scholar? You don't even need to have members get the 550 gift for stratagem cooldowns or anything. Literally just look up a skillchain chart in the scholar forums and make those skillchains. It requires a maximum of 5 minutes of work and an occasional glance at the sheet to make sure you're using the right elements.

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/32145/a-scholars-education-guide/35/ This page has some excellent charts/lists of the elements necessary to skillchain with scholar from back when I was learning the job. That's all your members needed to do over the course of 10 months.

I don't know much else to say on the topic. If you want to run a Vagary shell and be, as you said, the "masters of Vagary", then you should understand the system enough to know what's necessary. No, you may never see a platemail. That's a fact you're going to need to accept. If that is 100% the only item you cannot live without, then keep running it. But understand that is your choice, nobody else's. Systems should not be changed in order to get one novelty item that is either surpassed or has exceptionally close competition with other, more attainable options.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-04-20 16:13:01  
I do it to get players their clears before anything. We can't always find a scholar, and our experienced players don't always show up. Many are learning, we've helped so many in ten months. We started doing Escha NMs, but a few members left and we couldn't find a decent SCH to continue doing it. I'm trying to get us a dedicated SCH .. but it's difficult.

Our troubles stem from a lack of players on the server, and yes, Vagary is old. I don't expect anyone to stay for months, and it's good when they feel like they can move on to harder content. The event is really easy, or really difficult depending on who we have. To many players on these forums, you cleared Vagary while I was on break, I already knew that, but I hoped some would be sympathetic to those who missed out. I came back to the game and found no one wanted to do it, so I had to build my own LS to get clears.

The main three members of the LS have always wanted a Platemail, and at the time it was a really good option for the jobs we love. Now it's more of a trophy piece .. but we still want it. We're aware of the other options, but after 10 months it would be nice to see at least one of us get it. It's not the main reason why we do the event, we do it for the fun and to help others. At this point we would be happy to have another campaign because it's been several months. If all three of us got platemails tomorrow .. I would continue to run.

And I never said I want Vagary to be nerfed. Either give more incentive, or make minor tweaks to pump new life in to it. Keeping Adoulin content alive benefits everyone, and I'm not asking SE to destroy it, I'm asking them to breath life in to it. Either make it slightly (key word) easier on the casuals, or give more incentive for experienced players to redo the content for others.
 Phoenix.Libbien
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By Phoenix.Libbien 2016-04-20 16:13:10  
Can't blame SE for new/returning players not using their resources on bgwiki and other places for this content. Vagary is now a year old, with every gimick/strat already thought out and discussed. If people refuse to put in the effort to research what they're about to go up against I have no sympathy for them. The gear curve isn't even remotely challenging, only learning the mechanics of each zone which at this point has already been figured out and posted, that's on the players not SE.
 
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-04-20 16:24:24  
Also my post isn't the only one. This was posted before mine >> http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/50257-Vagary-alternative-to-unlock-Empyrean-1-reforge
 
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 Cerberus.Jiko
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By Cerberus.Jiko 2016-04-20 16:30:31  
The real problem isn't the difficulty (or lack there) of vagary, it's finding players who arent sucked into to whatever campaign is going on that month. Vagary is just one of those events that are affected by this.

With Cerberus' already low population mixed with this, good luck getting much of anything done. :\
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-04-20 16:31:36  
Cerberus.Jiko said: »
The real problem isn't vagary, it's finding players who arent sucked into to whatever campaign is going on that month. Vagary is just one of those events that are affected by this.

With Cerberus' already low population mixed with this, good luck getting much of anything done. :\

This^
 Asura.Ramsy
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By Asura.Ramsy 2016-04-20 16:34:52  
Sounds like one of your problems is not having a SCH. Why not level it yourself or have one of your regular attending members level it? Doing the sc for legs/body boss doesn't even require any jps put into sch.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-04-20 16:38:10  
Asura.Ramsy said: »
Sounds like one of your problems is not having a SCH. Why not level it yourself or have one of your regular attending members level it? Doing the sc for legs/body boss doesn't even require any jps put into sch.

I've strongly considered it over the past few weeks. I usually go Corsair but that can be easily replaced. Might do it after I get afterglow on my mythic. It's really hard to find scholars on Cerb, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.
 
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 Cerberus.Tidis
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By Cerberus.Tidis 2016-04-20 16:43:00  
I will interject here, we as a linkshell don't struggle to clear Vagary, the only runs I've seen us fail are Rancibus when we get no luck on the pillars and early Perfidin and Plouton when we didn't quite get the mechanics.

The main problem we encounter is lack of interest in Vagary, yes there will be groups who can clear all areas with a relatively low amount of people but we don't have the best of the best, we have people of varying skill and gear who as long as they can contribute and can provide a useful job are welcome.

Just saying since many replies seem to be on the lines of "You can't clears, learn strats and improve", which is missing the point here, maybe Kylos didn't put his point across clearly.

On the subject of platemails, like he said, 10 months and not a single direct drop platemail, that's a pretty piss poor drop rate. Could really use a slight increase there.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-04-20 16:54:08  
Tidis is one of the three I was talking about. The other is my father Quilly. And no, we don't suck at Vagary, we have a really high win percentage, but lately we've been caught out .. usually due to bad luck or a mistake from a newer player. I know Vagary inside and out, as does Tidis. We know how to win .. but finding players who want to do it is the real difficulty. Even so, we make events fun and still manage to make full alliances of casual players with a few experienced members like Tidis and myself.

We could low man it with six of our experienced members if we wanted too .. but what's the point? The priority for the linkshell is to get players their clears, or .. if they already have clears, make a fun event they can enjoy and perhaps get something they want. Just to make it clear .. we only lost frequently in the first month, but once we figured it out we've rarely lost. I recall a streak we had were we never lost a run for over three months. It's usually one of those Rancibus runs when we time out with 1% left because we had to do all the pillars. Tidis usually gets the blame.
 Asura.Ramsy
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By Asura.Ramsy 2016-04-20 17:14:22  
So maybe I'm confused then? You said you have trouble finding members, but prefer not to low man because it's not fun?
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By Afania 2016-04-20 17:15:33  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Tidis is one of the three I was talking about. The other is my father Quilly. And no, we don't suck at Vagary, we have a really high win percentage, but lately we've been caught out .. usually due to bad luck or a mistake from a newer player. I know Vagary inside and out, as does Tidis. We know how to win .. but finding players who want to do it is the real difficulty. Even so, we make events fun and still manage to make full alliances of casual players with a few experienced members like Tidis and myself.

We could low man it with six of our experienced members if we wanted too .. but what's the point? The priority for the linkshell is to get players their clears, or .. if they already have clears, make a fun event they can enjoy and perhaps get something they want. Just to make it clear .. we only lost frequently in the first month, but once we figured it out we've rarely lost. I recall a streak we had were we never lost a run for over three months. It's usually one of those Rancibus runs when we time out with 1% left because we had to do all the pillars. Tidis usually gets the blame.

From what I've seen the main issue is simply low server pop. When you have less than 300 ppl on server there won't be enough people to do pretty much....anything that focus on one single content. You can try to run an UNMLS or Escha zitah LS, I bet you'll run into same issues again after 10 months.

My advice would be:

1. Ask for server merge instead.
2. Transfer to a bigger server.
3. Focus on multiple contents and make attendance a requirement. So if some ppl wants to do escha, make 1 event day escha, then alternate content betweeb escha and vagary, and force those people come to vagary.
4. Create more incentives yourself. If you can clear vagary efficiently, it's still good gil if you split them. Or you can use point system that could be used in other Ls events. People may be more likely to show up for vagary if they earn points that can be used to buy merlinic body or AV2 earrings in the future.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-04-20 17:16:56  
Afania said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Tidis is one of the three I was talking about. The other is my father Quilly. And no, we don't suck at Vagary, we have a really high win percentage, but lately we've been caught out .. usually due to bad luck or a mistake from a newer player. I know Vagary inside and out, as does Tidis. We know how to win .. but finding players who want to do it is the real difficulty. Even so, we make events fun and still manage to make full alliances of casual players with a few experienced members like Tidis and myself.

We could low man it with six of our experienced members if we wanted too .. but what's the point? The priority for the linkshell is to get players their clears, or .. if they already have clears, make a fun event they can enjoy and perhaps get something they want. Just to make it clear .. we only lost frequently in the first month, but once we figured it out we've rarely lost. I recall a streak we had were we never lost a run for over three months. It's usually one of those Rancibus runs when we time out with 1% left because we had to do all the pillars. Tidis usually gets the blame.

From what I've seen the main issue is simply low server pop. When you have less than 300 ppl on server there won't be enough people to do pretty much....anything that focus on one single content. You can try to run an UNMLS or Escha zitah LS, I bet you'll run into same issues again after 10 months.

My advice would be:

1. Ask for server merge instead.
2. Transfer to a bigger server.
3. Focus on multiple contents and make attendance a requirement. So if some ppl wants to do escha, make 1 event day escha, then alternate content betweeb escha and vagary, and force those people come to vagary.
4. Create more incentives yourself. If you can clear vagary efficiently, it's still good gil if you split them. Or you can use point system that could be used in other Ls events. People may be more likely to show up for vagary if they earn points that can be used to buy merlinic body or AV2 earrings in the future.

Used to have an attendance system, and it worked in the beginning, but it ended up being detrimental, especially after they introduced wards. I've been asking for a server merge since 2011. Cerberus is home, and I know Quilly definitely won't leave because he has his 11+ year old social linkshell.

Also we like to take as many as possible. The more the merrier. Lowest we've cleared with so far is 12. We like to clear all five NMs in under 3 hours, so having more is better for us. With luck and the best players, we've done it in under 2.
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2016-04-20 17:19:12  
Asura.Ramsy said: »
So maybe I'm confused then? You said you have trouble finding members, but prefer not to low man because it's not fun?


This, you are seriously asking too much if you insist to run it with a big group AND have people stay with you for more than 10 months of doing it. No content can keep people around for that long.
 Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2016-04-20 17:23:00  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Afania said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Tidis is one of the three I was talking about. The other is my father Quilly. And no, we don't suck at Vagary, we have a really high win percentage, but lately we've been caught out .. usually due to bad luck or a mistake from a newer player. I know Vagary inside and out, as does Tidis. We know how to win .. but finding players who want to do it is the real difficulty. Even so, we make events fun and still manage to make full alliances of casual players with a few experienced members like Tidis and myself.

We could low man it with six of our experienced members if we wanted too .. but what's the point? The priority for the linkshell is to get players their clears, or .. if they already have clears, make a fun event they can enjoy and perhaps get something they want. Just to make it clear .. we only lost frequently in the first month, but once we figured it out we've rarely lost. I recall a streak we had were we never lost a run for over three months. It's usually one of those Rancibus runs when we time out with 1% left because we had to do all the pillars. Tidis usually gets the blame.

From what I've seen the main issue is simply low server pop. When you have less than 300 ppl on server there won't be enough people to do pretty much....anything that focus on one single content. You can try to run an UNMLS or Escha zitah LS, I bet you'll run into same issues again after 10 months.

My advice would be:

1. Ask for server merge instead.
2. Transfer to a bigger server.
3. Focus on multiple contents and make attendance a requirement. So if some ppl wants to do escha, make 1 event day escha, then alternate content betweeb escha and vagary, and force those people come to vagary.
4. Create more incentives yourself. If you can clear vagary efficiently, it's still good gil if you split them. Or you can use point system that could be used in other Ls events. People may be more likely to show up for vagary if they earn points that can be used to buy merlinic body or AV2 earrings in the future.

Used to have an attendance system, and it worked in the beginning, but it ended up being detrimental, especially after they introduced the ward key items. I've been asking for a server merge since 2011. Cerberus is home.

Also we like to take as many as possible. The more the merrier. Lowest we've cleared with so far is 12. We like to clear all five NMs in under 3 hours, so having more is better for us. With luck and the best players we've done it in under 2.

So basically you want a big group(thus not enough gil split every run), and complained there's not enough incentives.

Again, asking too much IMO. If you keep your numbers low so more profit for everyone, you may get more people.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-04-20 17:24:27  
Ragnarok.Afania said: »
Asura.Ramsy said: »
So maybe I'm confused then? You said you have trouble finding members, but prefer not to low man because it's not fun?


This, you are seriously asking too much if you insist to run it with a big group AND have people stay with you for more than 10 months of doing it. No content can keep people around for that long.

Well I'm doing it on one of the lowest populated servers, so if I can, anyone can. It's one of the last events doesn't hurt you for taking more than 6-8. Also it brings the server together, and I see nothing wrong with that.
 
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By Titanfoo 2016-04-20 17:27:25  
IMO Vagary/Incursion/Delve should change to being able to enter solo, that is the only change I think is needed.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-04-20 17:27:30  
Candlejack said: »
If lack of interest is the only reason why you have problems keeping people around, try switching events around and doing other things. People have stayed in Zygote purely because Zygote does Delve, Abyssea farming, WKRs, Vagary, Skirmish, Dynamis, Salvage, Nyzul/Neo Nyzul, Assaults, Einherjar, Sea, Sky, and VoidWatch. They constantly switch up what they do and when they do it. Someone needs a gear piece and the mats farmed? That decides what's going on during the given day. Someone needs something cleared? Phft, they're all there and set at event start time.
If you want people to stay interested, try switching the content so things don't end up feeling stale. There's still plenty to do.

My aim was to get enough players so we could work through Escha and Reisenjima NMs. It worked for a little while, but it fizzled out after a bad T3 run. Again, lack of a loyal SCH. It's not that I don't want to do other events, it's just finding the time and people. I can't play everyday, I have many other commitments, so I can't promise other events every week. I've asked other players to set up events if they want .. but they all wait on me to arrange something.
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