Changes To Vagary?

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Changes to Vagary?
 Ragnarok.Slyshen
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By Ragnarok.Slyshen 2016-09-03 10:56:26  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
132 kills last time i merced one, but you can get 6 kills an hour or so if you're fast and you get quite a bit of gil on the side

think it's fine as is.. not like it's even good for anything besides lockstyle

Seriously haha. These people should go afterglow a weapon or two instead of wasting time on some town gear, but to each their own, it's your money and game.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-09-03 11:16:34  
It's way less than 1%. Anyone who got "two in a row" won the lottery twice. The drop rate is ridiculous considering we've beat Plouton almost every week since June 2015. Seen 8 platemails from the Odyssean passage (7 during campaign, once outside), but not from plouton itself. But it's not like I set it up to get the body, we do it to get people clears. That is literally the only reason I continue to do it every week, even though all I get is an Etched Memory (random drop) and a Dark Matter if it's my pop. But that's it for incentive, I could farm more gil in the time it takes me to set up a group and beat all five.

And yes, we are still taking 18 players to Vagary every week on one of the quietest servers at a time where there's only 200-300 players online. People still want it, even if it's for a bit of money, or just to help out and have fun. I would never merc for clears (someone offered me 10m for Putraxia clear two weeks ago) and even more so for the body.

You have to be pretty sad to kill it 100, 200, 300+ times nonstop just to get the body; I certainly wouldn't waste my time low-manning it for days/weeks. It's not that we wouldn't "like it", it's just the drop rate could be a tiny bit more rewarding. As people say, it's a town piece, so why does it need to have such a low drop rate anymore?
 Odin.Llewelyn
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2016-09-03 11:20:56  
Does TH affect the drop rate of Tart. Mail or does it share a slot with the 1 guaranteed drop slot?
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-09-03 11:23:19  
Odin.Llewelyn said: »
Does TH affect the drop rate of Tart. Mail or does it share a slot with the 1 guaranteed drop slot?

Apparently TH does effect it, but not by much at all. We've tried it with and without TH countless times at varying degrees of Treasure Hunter and it doesn't matter. Same loot pool every time. It doesn't exist. I've seen people wearing it .. but it's the ongoing joke in my LS for almost a year that it doesn't. Even though there's a link to a screenshot of it dropping in this very thread; it does not exist, and will never exist. That's how bad the rate is, even with Treasure Hunter.
 Sylph.Braden
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By Sylph.Braden 2016-09-03 12:37:16  
I assume it has a chance to drop in either slot, but I can barely find pictures of people getting the drop at all, nevermind a 2nd slot drop.

Between desperation to see this thing and the much greater chance at a third Dark Matter, I'll always bring a THF to this.
 Bismarck.Firedemon
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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2016-09-03 13:00:57  
Ragnarok.Slyshen said: »
Seriously haha. These people should go afterglow a weapon or two instead of wasting time on some town gear, but to each their own, it's your money and game.

My DRK/BST/SAM/DRG -damage taken set says otherwise.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2016-09-03 13:02:21  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
It's way less than 1%. Anyone who got "two in a row" won the lottery twice. The drop rate is ridiculous considering we've beat Plouton almost every week since June 2015.

Aside from one experience being nowhere near enough to quantify a droprate, one kill a week since june 1, 2015 is only 65 kills
 Sylph.Jeanpaul
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By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2016-09-03 13:31:28  
Siren.Kiyara said: »
Lastly, the event seems very job elitist like old FFXI. All I see is an army of blm/sch/smn/blu and a pld/whm/brd etc doing this. This event is so mage/magic burst friendly. DD seems utterly useless from what I noticed. I pretty much just sat there and let all the mages just kill everything in mere minutes. Wasn't even a point of trying to melee as the mobs seemed to be extremely resistant to it and could easily one shot DDs. Again, the whole let's suck mage *** ordeal cause it's safe and easy I guess.
It is possible to kill with melees, but there is a degree of preparation required. Some notes I've gathered after regularly killing it with THF BLU BRD GEO Koru-Moru Kupipi:

- Below 50%, he gains 99% PDT to 2 of the 3 damage types (blunt, piercing, slashing). Sometimes the one he's weak to begins to take double damage, as well. Unlike when using magic, there's no penalty to using the wrong weapon type other than the reduced damage. If you are farming this way, I highly recommend preparing alternate weapons for your job.
- I believe all (or nearly all) of his attacks are magic based, with his melee hits being dark based. Subbing RUN and using Lux, using some MDT/Meva gear where it's reasonable, and using Geo-Vex tames him.
- TH helps, as it increases the chance of getting a third material and/or a second piece of gear. From looking through pictures of drops, the platemail shares the same slot as other gear, so it's technically possible to get two platemails.
 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2016-09-03 13:38:34  
Bismarck.Firedemon said: »
Ragnarok.Slyshen said: »
Seriously haha. These people should go afterglow a weapon or two instead of wasting time on some town gear, but to each their own, it's your money and game.

My DRK/BST/SAM/DRG -damage taken set says otherwise.
Most people don't use those sets nor do they actually want to gear those jobs, how would they know.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-09-03 13:51:03  
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
It's way less than 1%. Anyone who got "two in a row" won the lottery twice. The drop rate is ridiculous considering we've beat Plouton almost every week since June 2015.

Aside from one experience being nowhere near enough to quantify a droprate, one kill a week since june 1, 2015 is only 65 kills

So SE expects us to do Plouton 3-4 times a week for the odd chance it might drop one? No chance in hell, nothing should be that bad at this point of the game. At least with Defending Ring the pop is easy to get as they just hand it out for free each month, and you can use it on all jobs.
 Lakshmi.Konvict
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By Lakshmi.Konvict 2016-09-03 14:02:39  
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
Lakshmi.Konvict said: »
Siren.Kiyara said: »
Definitely need to up the drop rate on Tartarus Platemail. It should be around 5-10% drop rate at lowest. Not this 1% BS. Also, they really need to remove the "if someone dies at all during the run, NM will not spawn or will despawn during fight" rule. I find that to a bit dumb considering what you have to do to get it to spawn in the first place and someone dying with a group of 18 is very possible as lot of these NMs will one shot you with utter ease.
Vagary imo doesn't scale in line with other content with Empyreal gear +1 requirements. I don't know how that is equivalent to High Tier BCNMs for Artifact 119 gear and Delve/Voidwatch for Relic 199 gear in terms of difficulty. Vagary is tremendously harder than Delve and High Tier BCNMs.

Lastly, the event seems very job elitist like old FFXI. All I see is an army of blm/sch/smn/blu and a pld/whm/brd etc doing this. This event is so mage/magic burst friendly. DD seems utterly useless from what I noticed. I pretty much just sat there and let all the mages just kill everything in mere minutes. Wasn't even a point of trying to melee as the mobs seemed to be extremely resistant to it and could easily one shot DDs. Again, the whole let's suck mage *** ordeal cause it's safe and easy I guess.
Just keep trying man. If they made that body 5 to 10% drop everyone would have it. Takes the average person at least over 50, took me closer to 150. It's less than 1% sadly lol.
It's not like D ring was made available to literally every single player.

Just keep trying man, lol, it'll drop lol, it's intended to be super hard lol, you know, it's intended to be an event where you have to gather 18 players on a dead game lol, just keep trying lol, It's almost 2017 and you're here trying 150 times to get an armor from 2013 lol, believe it man!
You bring 18 to Vagary? You can full clear everything with 4 or 5 wtf lol
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-09-03 14:10:25  
Lakshmi.Konvict said: »
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
Lakshmi.Konvict said: »
Siren.Kiyara said: »
Definitely need to up the drop rate on Tartarus Platemail. It should be around 5-10% drop rate at lowest. Not this 1% BS. Also, they really need to remove the "if someone dies at all during the run, NM will not spawn or will despawn during fight" rule. I find that to a bit dumb considering what you have to do to get it to spawn in the first place and someone dying with a group of 18 is very possible as lot of these NMs will one shot you with utter ease.
Vagary imo doesn't scale in line with other content with Empyreal gear +1 requirements. I don't know how that is equivalent to High Tier BCNMs for Artifact 119 gear and Delve/Voidwatch for Relic 199 gear in terms of difficulty. Vagary is tremendously harder than Delve and High Tier BCNMs.

Lastly, the event seems very job elitist like old FFXI. All I see is an army of blm/sch/smn/blu and a pld/whm/brd etc doing this. This event is so mage/magic burst friendly. DD seems utterly useless from what I noticed. I pretty much just sat there and let all the mages just kill everything in mere minutes. Wasn't even a point of trying to melee as the mobs seemed to be extremely resistant to it and could easily one shot DDs. Again, the whole let's suck mage *** ordeal cause it's safe and easy I guess.
Just keep trying man. If they made that body 5 to 10% drop everyone would have it. Takes the average person at least over 50, took me closer to 150. It's less than 1% sadly lol.
It's not like D ring was made available to literally every single player.

Just keep trying man, lol, it'll drop lol, it's intended to be super hard lol, you know, it's intended to be an event where you have to gather 18 players on a dead game lol, just keep trying lol, It's almost 2017 and you're here trying 150 times to get an armor from 2013 lol, believe it man!
You bring 18 to Vagary? You can full clear everything with 4 or 5 wtf lol

Do I have to explain myself for the millionth time?
 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2016-09-03 14:12:44  
Lakshmi.Konvict said: »
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
Lakshmi.Konvict said: »
Siren.Kiyara said: »
Definitely need to up the drop rate on Tartarus Platemail. It should be around 5-10% drop rate at lowest. Not this 1% BS. Also, they really need to remove the "if someone dies at all during the run, NM will not spawn or will despawn during fight" rule. I find that to a bit dumb considering what you have to do to get it to spawn in the first place and someone dying with a group of 18 is very possible as lot of these NMs will one shot you with utter ease.
Vagary imo doesn't scale in line with other content with Empyreal gear +1 requirements. I don't know how that is equivalent to High Tier BCNMs for Artifact 119 gear and Delve/Voidwatch for Relic 199 gear in terms of difficulty. Vagary is tremendously harder than Delve and High Tier BCNMs.

Lastly, the event seems very job elitist like old FFXI. All I see is an army of blm/sch/smn/blu and a pld/whm/brd etc doing this. This event is so mage/magic burst friendly. DD seems utterly useless from what I noticed. I pretty much just sat there and let all the mages just kill everything in mere minutes. Wasn't even a point of trying to melee as the mobs seemed to be extremely resistant to it and could easily one shot DDs. Again, the whole let's suck mage *** ordeal cause it's safe and easy I guess.
Just keep trying man. If they made that body 5 to 10% drop everyone would have it. Takes the average person at least over 50, took me closer to 150. It's less than 1% sadly lol.
It's not like D ring was made available to literally every single player.

Just keep trying man, lol, it'll drop lol, it's intended to be super hard lol, you know, it's intended to be an event where you have to gather 18 players on a dead game lol, just keep trying lol, It's almost 2017 and you're here trying 150 times to get an armor from 2013 lol, believe it man!
You bring 18 to Vagary? You can full clear everything with 4 or 5 wtf lol
And you're going to spend your whole day shouting/waste 4 other people's time to get one piece of gear for a damage taken set on your SAM.

This is absolutely stupid. Why would you need more than yourself and trusts for something that not everyone can profit from. You'll get one mail per month spamming with friends/every day like crazy, *** yeah, let's wait 4 months more for the other dudes you got to come with you.

It's beautiful to play with friends and what not but this is easy content that is way too repetitive and all of that for just one drop. Salvage was fun, at least, and you made much more than 1M per run. I mean, all the logic and arguments in the world will show that Vagary right now is stupid.

As for people complaining about D ring drop rate back in the days and what not, they're mostly people who either got 1 KB in their while "career" or never got into HNM, so their input is pretty much void of any credibility. I've seen more D rings drop within 6 months back in 2008 than anyone has seen Platemail drop within a year since it came out. But the main argument is that times have changed, this game is dead, there is no reason to design the game nowadays the way it was designed back then. Vagary in 2016 is essentially a PDT piece event, for a few jobs. Amazing game design.

The Nyzul campaign going on barely motivated people to spam it with the drops it has, and not adding Platemail to the loot list was dumb (unless it was just extra rarer than the rest) as it removed most of the reason to do it. I don't know, why would you give D ring to every single player who would have never been able to get it and not give the Platemail to people who can only not get it because of the drop rate and nothing else? There is a difference between not being able to access to something due to not being in a good position within the community of your server and not being able to access something because the drop rate is so bad that it doesn't even make people attempt it anymore.
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 Lakshmi.Konvict
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By Lakshmi.Konvict 2016-09-03 14:21:23  
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
Lakshmi.Konvict said: »
Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
Lakshmi.Konvict said: »
Siren.Kiyara said: »
Definitely need to up the drop rate on Tartarus Platemail. It should be around 5-10% drop rate at lowest. Not this 1% BS. Also, they really need to remove the "if someone dies at all during the run, NM will not spawn or will despawn during fight" rule. I find that to a bit dumb considering what you have to do to get it to spawn in the first place and someone dying with a group of 18 is very possible as lot of these NMs will one shot you with utter ease.
Vagary imo doesn't scale in line with other content with Empyreal gear +1 requirements. I don't know how that is equivalent to High Tier BCNMs for Artifact 119 gear and Delve/Voidwatch for Relic 199 gear in terms of difficulty. Vagary is tremendously harder than Delve and High Tier BCNMs.

Lastly, the event seems very job elitist like old FFXI. All I see is an army of blm/sch/smn/blu and a pld/whm/brd etc doing this. This event is so mage/magic burst friendly. DD seems utterly useless from what I noticed. I pretty much just sat there and let all the mages just kill everything in mere minutes. Wasn't even a point of trying to melee as the mobs seemed to be extremely resistant to it and could easily one shot DDs. Again, the whole let's suck mage *** ordeal cause it's safe and easy I guess.
Just keep trying man. If they made that body 5 to 10% drop everyone would have it. Takes the average person at least over 50, took me closer to 150. It's less than 1% sadly lol.
It's not like D ring was made available to literally every single player.

Just keep trying man, lol, it'll drop lol, it's intended to be super hard lol, you know, it's intended to be an event where you have to gather 18 players on a dead game lol, just keep trying lol, It's almost 2017 and you're here trying 150 times to get an armor from 2013 lol, believe it man!
You bring 18 to Vagary? You can full clear everything with 4 or 5 wtf lol
And you're going to spend your whole day shouting/waste 4 other people's time to get one piece of gear for a damage taken set on your SAM.

This is absolutely stupid. Why would you need more than yourself and trusts for something that not everyone can profit from. You'll get one mail per month spamming with friends/every day like crazy, *** yeah, let's wait 4 months more for the other dudes you got to come with you.

It's beautiful to play with friends and what not but this is easy content that is way too repetitive and all of that for just one drop. Salvage was fun, at least, and you made much more than 1M per run. I mean, all the logic and arguments in the world will show that Vagary right now is stupid.

As for people complaining about D ring drop rate back in the days and what not, they're mostly people who either got 1 KB in their while "career" or never got into HNM, so their input is pretty much void of any credibility. I've seen more D rings drop within 6 months back in 2008 than anyone has seen Platemail drop within a year since it came out. But the main argument is that times have changed, this game is dead, there is no reason to design the game nowadays the way it was designed back then. Vagary in 2016 is essentially a PDT piece event, for a few jobs. Amazing game design.

The Nyzul campaign going on barely motivated people to spam it with the drops it has, and not adding Platemail to the loot list was dumb (unless it was just extra rarer than the rest) as it removed most of the reason to do it. I don't know, why would you give D ring to every single player who would have never been able to get it and not give the Platemail to people who can only not get it because of the drop rate and nothing else? There is a difference between not being able to access to something due to not being in a good position within the community of your server and not being able to access something because the drop rate is so bad that it doesn't even make people attempt it anymore.
Oh I was talking from a perspective of soloing it with mules pld whm geo sch blm lol. Yea if you bring actual players it is a waste of time.
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By Boshi 2016-09-03 14:25:50  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
It's way less than 1%. Anyone who got "two in a row" won the lottery twice. The drop rate is ridiculous considering we've beat Plouton almost every week since June 2015.

Thats only about 65-66 kills doing it once every week since the first week if June 2015, hardly enough to discredit a 1/100 drop rate.


Edit: someone already beat me to it.

Edit: P.S. Masters of Wahgary
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2016-09-03 14:32:15  
again, enter-pop-kill should be taking 10 min for a competent group

add an extra 5 min to kill perfidien every Nth run, where N is how many members you have to hold plouton pops

so figuring a group of 6 can get 36 pops per clear, you have 17 hours of killing plouton, total 2 additional hours spent finishing with a perfidien and hitting leafalia every 6 runs, and an additional 9 hours to make sets of base zones 3 times(which is slow, i can do it in 70 min per set)

total 28 hours for a group of 6 with my conservative times, so 2 weeks if you spend 2 hours daily.. which would be a lot if you were just getting the mail, but you're also getting(cerberus prices, some of which are low):

~1000 etched memories(20m)
~270 dark matters(351m)
~140 hades claws(7m)
~35 tartarian chains(59.5m)
~35 tartarian souls(21m)
~6 plovid effluvium(7.2m)
~3 plovid flesh(2.7m)
~6 defiant sweat(12m)
~3 defiant scarves(2m)
~6 macuil horn(10.2m)
~3 macuil plating(2.2m)
18 redemptions, 3 per person

All told, 494.8m of things. If redemptions aren't used on random for chance at mail, thats another 36m of sweats. So, each person ends up walking away with 82.4m(88.4 if they get sweats from KI). That's right around 3m/hr doing something with other people while working toward a rare piece of gear. Sorry, not feeling bad about the 1% droprate.
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 Bismarck.Phaded
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By Bismarck.Phaded 2016-09-03 15:13:02  
Cerberus.Tidis said: »
Asura.Regicide said: »
Sylph.Systematicchaos said: »
I love the second post on the official forums. "The PLD had hate, but someone pulled hate and died. Plz make it so I can't pull hate."

Is it really that hard to understand that Vagary doesn't allow supertanking?

You can super tank
Odd to pull up a quote from over 100 days but hate is certainly odd in Vagary, when I'm due to super tank something, if I just sight aggro, a few always went off and to the group, but if I pull with flash (or any hate tool) then all the mobs stick to me. This doesn't count Rancibus zone but kill waves quick and hate isn't an issue.

Hate isn't odd, it works the exact same way it did in Incursion (and Ambuscade now). No one should be self buffing/casting/using job abilities during pulls (this includes BRD/COR). It's literally a sit still and wait for tank to gather everything up thing, but you always have that one moron that forgets/doesn't care/isn't paying attention. These are the same morons that later die and screw up a run.

I think Vagary has been a perfect stop gap in getting players to pay attention and diversify their gear sets/understand their jobs better. It's not SE's fault players don't use proper idle sets/understand manawall exists/don't get casting ranges. Also if constantly doing 18 man LS runs, it's easier to just exhaust all perf/plouton KIs at pillar zone and exit if the goal is just to get a body to drop during non-campaign events. No reason to constantly re-clear all three zones.

If retaining members is a problem then you should be lotting all mats/upgrade items and doing gil splits at the end of the month based on attendance. The post above clearly shows how its meant to be a profitable zone.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-09-03 16:53:31  
It baffles me how baffled people get when I say we help other people get clears, which includes taking 18 for Vagary. Is it really that confusing? Is it such a crazy thing that we take that many? We don't have to, but we do because it's fun and it brings the server together. Is it alien? I mean .. we don't have to take that many, but we do anyways "because we can". We could low-man with six if we really wanted to (and win each time), but where's the fun in that??

We ain't about the gil, or getting the body, otherwise the approach would be completely different and we would offer a merc service ... which wouldn't be right because the main reason we made a Vagary LS in the first place was so no one had to pay through the nose for a clear. No one should have to pay 10m+ for a clear when the server they play on should pull together and get this content done as a FUN group of people. Whether that's six, twelve, or eighteen players doesn't matter, it's not like we're doing Reisenjima NM.
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By Inudesu 2016-09-03 16:59:11  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
It baffles me how baffled people get when I say we help other people get clears, which includes taking 18 for Vagary. Is it really that confusing? Is it such a crazy thing that we take that many? We don't have to, but we do because it's fun and it brings the server together. Is it alien to most of you? I mean .. we don't have to take that many, but we do anyways "because we can". We could low-man with six if we really wanted to (and win each time), but where's the fun in that??

We ain't about the gil, or getting the body, otherwise the approach would be different and we would merc for people ... which is the main reason we made a Vagary LS in the first place, so no one has to pay through the nose for a clear. No one should have to pay 10m+ for a clear when the server they play on should pull together and get this content done as a FUN group of people.

Some people want to help, some people want to profit.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-09-03 17:01:48  
Inudesu said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
It baffles me how baffled people get when I say we help other people get clears, which includes taking 18 for Vagary. Is it really that confusing? Is it such a crazy thing that we take that many? We don't have to, but we do because it's fun and it brings the server together. Is it alien to most of you? I mean .. we don't have to take that many, but we do anyways "because we can". We could low-man with six if we really wanted to (and win each time), but where's the fun in that??

We ain't about the gil, or getting the body, otherwise the approach would be different and we would merc for people ... which is the main reason we made a Vagary LS in the first place, so no one has to pay through the nose for a clear. No one should have to pay 10m+ for a clear when the server they play on should pull together and get this content done as a FUN group of people.

Some people want to help, some people want to profit.

So I want to say this for the last time. We take 18 because we want to HELP FOR FREE. We don't care about gil, or the body, just helping people get their clears and anything else they may need from the event is enough. Crazy huh? That people actively try to take more people to an event when they really don't need to.

Are we the only LS left in the game who does this? Are all the remaining linkshells only helpful to their own members and those who pay for merc services? Where did the friendly community go? That above list of "prices" disgusts me, as it shows the typical "bleed the casuals dry" mentality which I'll never agree with.
 Bismarck.Phaded
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By Bismarck.Phaded 2016-09-03 17:16:39  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »

So here's my attempt at some suggestions.

- Make Vagary Campaign permanent. At least this way, players have a choice of a gil item/equipment and a random drop, whereas others can try their luck and go for two random choices. This would increase the likelihood of platemails, but not too much that everyone will have one.

- Make a Records Of Eminence objective for Plouton. 50-100 Ploutons gives a key item which can be traded for a Platemail. By doing this it sets a target, and if a linkshell is unlucky for ten months, at least the members who stuck through it are rewarded in the end. Could give other rewards for those who don't want the platemail.

- Increase the drop rate on Plouton. After doing Vagary over ten months, the drop rate is so abysmal I don't believe it exists. It's become a running joke in my linkshell, whenever anyone mentions the platemail, I'll say "Body? What body? Never heard of it". Would it hurt to increase the drop rate even slightly? Not expecting it to drop 100%.

- After so many Ward Key items (all five) turned in, the skulls give an option of an extended reward. How many times? 25 times perhaps? Clear the entirety of Vagary 25 times and get the choice of a Platemail, stacks of gil items, or something new? Either way, it would encourage players to clear Vagary over and over, and the progress would be real and measured.

Every suggestion you make is mostly to increase drop rate on Tart. SE decided to go with the make vagary mats more valuable route. Don't blame the player base because things weren't designed to give you a higher rate on one piece of gear. There isn't a high influx of new/returning players so at some point the "bringing players for clears" plan won't last long. There is no incentive in returning after they get their clears. Getting paid would give one of those new/returning players a reason to keep attending after the novelty of clearing wears off.

FFXI: Utopia Edition just doesn't exist.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-09-03 17:19:57  
Bismarck.Phaded said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »

So here's my attempt at some suggestions.

- Make Vagary Campaign permanent. At least this way, players have a choice of a gil item/equipment and a random drop, whereas others can try their luck and go for two random choices. This would increase the likelihood of platemails, but not too much that everyone will have one.

- Make a Records Of Eminence objective for Plouton. 50-100 Ploutons gives a key item which can be traded for a Platemail. By doing this it sets a target, and if a linkshell is unlucky for ten months, at least the members who stuck through it are rewarded in the end. Could give other rewards for those who don't want the platemail.

- Increase the drop rate on Plouton. After doing Vagary over ten months, the drop rate is so abysmal I don't believe it exists. It's become a running joke in my linkshell, whenever anyone mentions the platemail, I'll say "Body? What body? Never heard of it". Would it hurt to increase the drop rate even slightly? Not expecting it to drop 100%.

- After so many Ward Key items (all five) turned in, the skulls give an option of an extended reward. How many times? 25 times perhaps? Clear the entirety of Vagary 25 times and get the choice of a Platemail, stacks of gil items, or something new? Either way, it would encourage players to clear Vagary over and over, and the progress would be real and measured.

Every suggestion you make is mostly to increase drop rate on Tart. SE decided to go with the make vagary mats more valuable route. Don't blame the player base because things weren't designed to give you a higher rate on one piece of gear. There isn't a high influx of new/returning players so at some point the "bringing players for clears" plan won't last long. There is no incentive in returning after they get their clears. Getting paid would give one of those new/returning players a reason to keep attending after the novelty of clearing wears off.

FFXI: Utopia Edition just doesn't exist.

On the official forums I also made some suggestions to the way Vagary runs, like the luck factor on Rancibus and the "death" rule on Perf/Plouton being too much for a returning player to deal with. I also made suggestions to add new zones, kinda like what they did with Salvage and Limbus etc, like a Neo-Vagary for higher tier players. So no, it wasn't just about the body.
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By Bismarck.Phaded 2016-09-03 17:20:04  
Also for the record, the vagary run I went to last nite; 3 BLMs + SCH + Tank + GEO did all the work while rest were afk in a corner (yes full 18, including 2 players in non iLvl gear that never had clear before).

Groups that get players free clears exist they just don't whine about drop rates or post about it online. The only thing that needs changing are the pillars. Reducing them or the # of waves is the fix everyone should be screaming at SE for.

Your Title: "Vagary Woes"
Woes - an exclamation of grief, distress, or lamentation

Vagary shouldn't be gimped into being an introductory zone for new/returning players. Plenty of other events to do that would arguably give better gear progression. Alternate between the two and making gil as an LS to pass the time. Contrary to how you are trying paint it, selling upgrade mats on the AH isn't "bleed(ing) the casuals dry".
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-09-03 17:21:59  
You would be surprised how many players stay in my linkshell after I get them clears. Some don't, but most stick around for weeks, sometimes months because it's fun and we have a nice group of players who make it more fun than it is. Also there's no whining going on here, just suggestions to make this event more than it is. Is that a crime? If so, lock me up and throw away the key.

Also I was happy with the change. Aside from when there's a CP campaign on, many players will join for the synth materials alone. That was a big win for us, and I wouldn't mind a little more change in the future, but for now we are happy with the interest. This week I had to turn away a few players because we filled up with 18 and sadly we can't take 20+.

As for the title, at the time we were losing incentive and was hoping for anything to keep us going. I never claimed I wanted it to be an introductory zone, as it's meant to be like it is and changing it too drastically wouldn't be right. Also I'm not limiting this to Vagary, other events such as Incursion and Sinister Reign could do with tweaks and added incentive.
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By Asura.Yeira 2016-09-04 05:33:09  
Why do so many miss the main point? Regardless of complaints by the OP of drop rates and the like, I believe he hit a critical issue that has been neglected:

Cerberus.Kylos said: »
On the time of release, the content was designed to be difficult for the best players FFXI has to offer. But since then, Reisenjima and other NMs have become the new "hard" content, while Vagary remains unchanged. I have read some stories of players having great difficulty getting their Empyrean reforged unlocked because no one runs Vagary on their server; or if they do, are not good at running the event.

We're not looking to flood servers with Platemails .. we're not looking to make Vagary a pushover .. all we're looking for is fairness, making the event more accessible to those who need clears, and to give decent incentive for those who continue to run the event after getting everything. Vagary should remain an event the player base can enjoy.

These are perfectly reasonable requests. After coming back from an extended break, I don't see Vagary shouts nearly as often. Since it's tied to upgraded emp. gear, it can be kind of important to people depending on the job. For instance, RDM benefits greatly from having an entire set for the set bonus. Some jobs neglect the set bonuses, though.

With the dwindling population of XI (and lack of server merges) and content that has been released that dwarfs Vagary rewards, there seems to be little incentive to do these events outside of campaigns.

But that's not the main problem. The main problem is that there is a huge jump between difficulty between AF i119, Relic i119, and Empy i119.

AF i119 is simple as it can be. Relic adds some monetary costs to the equation but that isn't too big if you play for a few months. None of these really require you to join parties and accomplish very specific goals. You aren't guaranteed to learn your job just from doing AF i119 and Relic i119.

Suddenly, you run into Vagary that has very specific job requirements, specific strategies, required knowledge of skillchains and MB mechanics, etc. It's a recipe for disaster if you're not prepared.

I really enjoy Vagary. I enjoy almost all Aedelin content. I would really like to see incentives for people to run this content again and I think campaigns are a good start. When I was doing Vagary regularly, I'd usually take 6 people into Plouton/Perfi runs to make them easier. At the same time, I have done 18 man Palloritus/Rancibus and, while difficult, it's doable with knowledgeable players.

Take me for instance. I'm not exactly a new player (since NA PC release) but I play casually. I've cleared Vagary and done some endgam stuff. However, I invited a friend to play with me a while ago and I'm racking my brain figuring out how to get him Vagary clears. He's new to FFXI: doesn't know many of the basics. I teach him what I can but that won't prepare him well enough unless he levels an 'easy' job like GEO or, perhaps, BLM.

I believe you can see this discussed in the Ambuscade thread but the concept of exclusivity is becoming more prominent as the population dwindles. Without merger of servers, this problem will continue to get worse.

For those not aware, XI used to be quite a social MMO where players helped players for nothing. Now it seems filled to the brim with cliques.

Good luck in your endeavors, Kylos. I'm sure the players you help won't forget it. =]
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By Afania 2016-09-04 08:35:36  
Asura.Yeira said: »
These are perfectly reasonable requests. After coming back from an extended break, I don't see Vagary shouts nearly as often. Since it's tied to upgraded emp. gear, it can be kind of important to people depending on the job. For instance, RDM benefits greatly from having an entire set for the set bonus. Some jobs neglect the set bonuses, though.

With the dwindling population of XI (and lack of server merges) and content that has been released that dwarfs Vagary rewards, there seems to be little incentive to do these events outside of campaigns.

Just FYI, if you think people don't do Vagary anymore, this is completely false. In fact I just did couple of run 5hr ago. Multiple groups of ppl in my network do Vagary for gil all the time, they just don't shout because it's done with 1 or 2 person and 3 mules so they don't need extras.

If you are a new or returning player that needs Vagary clears, the easiest way is probably search that zone for people farming gil, then send a tell to join them to leech KI. As long as leeches don't lot mat I don't see why wouldn't they get an invite.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2016-09-04 08:50:39  
Thanks for that Yeira, nice to see someone getting my point. I've been helping players since 2004, so it's funny because people will return and be like "Kylos! Whoa! I rememeber when you helped me do this ..", and I can't even remember them but I know it was me who helped them. It happened to me the other day lol, someone came back and hadn't played for about 10 years and they still remembered who I was.

To some, it appears to be a crazy concept that others still help players for free. Yes, we could charge them and make a boatload of money, but I can't do that, it would feel like taking ice cream from a kid, and not because I don't like 'em .. but because I want the ice cream and can't be bothered to buy (farm) my own. I understand people like to be paid for their time, I understand why some stay in their "cliques" (or to themselves with their 4-6 box) and don't help others anymore; they've been there and done it for years.

It would be nice if some of these players showed their generous side from time-to-time, just to show they can be part of the community instead of always being the hired help; like when someone helped my Dad and I a few weeks ago by beating Golden Kist with their 6-box account and didn't ask for anything in return, something which only came about through my "whining" on here.

Another thing I don't understand is, how does taking 18 players to Vagary for Plouton or any of the other NM make it harder? You can explain how the zones work, and keep a watch to ensure everyone's doing what they are meant to. Doing that you can see which players work well in groups, and which players struggle to follow direction in groups. It forms new relationships, even more so on a quiet server where events are sparse. Doing stuff like 18-man Vagary is possible on ANY server, and shouldn't be discouraged. It's one of the last events in the game you can take a full alliance and not get punished for it.

Sometimes you need to give players a little more attention, so they understand what's needed. But seriously, I find Vagary with 18 super easy (which is the point, I don't want to do this for any longer than three hours at a time) and it means I don't have to do all three zones with 6 which is going to take a while longer. Even more so if we get unlucky on Ranci, at least with 18 we have less chance of losing out if we get unlucky.

I don't belong to any of these "cliques". I don't have a bunch of players who I run with on everything everyday. Essentially I take who's available on Cerberus, tell them what we need, get them on the right jobs, then explain the (battle strategies) and see how it goes. I don't dual box, I don't have a pocket WHM or GEO, I rely on other players to do that.

And like Yeira bolded above, I don't want Vagary to turn into another Dynamis. Damn .. I hated it when they changed Dynamis, I was firmly against it, even if it did make the event x100 more accessible. Small tweaks, added incentive, just to keep Adoulin events alive while most farm Escha/Reisen/Event Campaigns all day every day. Some would have you believe I was asking for the world, when really I'm asking for very little.

Also I don't like leeching. I don't take anyone to my Vagary clears if they ain't willing to gear an appropriate job and help out. Even if it's as small as doing rolls, singing songs, or doing haste II/Dispel, I never bring players who do nothing but stand there. How do they learn? They won't, they will expect to leech in the future, and that's not a good precedent any server should be setting.
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By Afania 2016-09-04 09:17:38  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
To some, it appears to be a crazy concept that others still help players for free.

I love how a Vagary discussion on FFXIAH suddenly turned into merc hate again, even though none of the posts that Ive seen ever mention anything about merc, just selling mat.

It is quite a bit of assumption to claim people farming mat are mercs and refuse to help for free when people allow KI leeches all the time.

From what I've seen the discussion above only mentioned T mail drop rate isn't that bad because Vagary can be done efficiently and be a good way to make gil from mat while farming it, it has nothing to do with merc.
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By Afania 2016-09-04 09:48:35  
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
I understand people like to be paid for their time, I understand why some stay in their "cliques" (or to themselves with their 4-6 box) and don't help others anymore; they've been there and done it for years.

No you don't, because if you do you wouldn't pop on the forum and complain about merc in every single discussion when it's not even relevant to the discussion. You just have this biased opinion about it that you seize every opportunity to bash people whenever it's possible.

People really need to appreciate "help for free" a bit more. It's not a responsibility to help strangers, it's a bonus, or a gift. People shouldnt be punished if they choose not to help others.

I also don't understand how doing Vagary lowman means you aren't helping others? That's quite a bit of gap in logic.

Go help people if you want, run 18 man Vagary if you like, just don't proceed to bash people for not doing it because ironically despite you think what you are doing is for the good of community, pop on the forum and bash others who plays differently and talk negatively about them is the opposite.

If you don't like how others play this game just don't play that way yourself, attacking others aren't gonna change how they play, just brings negativity.
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By Bismarck.Kuroganashi 2016-09-04 09:52:31  
Vagary Seems to be abled to be 3 man now but for hands we used the following settup:

WHM + GEO (Master and with Idris) + BLM + BLU (Master and with Almace 119 Final) + BLU (Master) + (Trust Star Sybil for AOE nukes) (Amchuchu for NM Umbril + NM Fairy + Boss)

did fine, Fairy was worse for us due to her AOE but we managed to stay above 80% whole fight almost (except for once when we drop to 50%)

Boss was Easy !

Then did Legs :
WHM + GEO (Master and with Idris) + BLM + BLM (Master) + PLD (Master with Aegis) + SCH (Master)



Easy as hell. :D
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