The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On

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The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2018-09-13 01:13:49  
Rainemard said: »
@Katriina You've assumed follow-up attack will only proc on MH right now right? What's setan path B's placement if you DON'T offhand anything? Curious now, since we do have haste samba to get (close) to delay cap.

Need to look into [Setan B/Buckler] combo with /WAR + Fighter's
Not entirly sure if it would be as good as [Twashtar Aug/Buckler] though with AM3 because back in the day that after-mentioned combo was pretty close to [Terp/Twashtar].

But its not that hard to math out eventually and highly dependable on the amount of MH you have in TP set [that quintuple proc should be fun to see].

Would assume something along the lines of [2.9-3.1] AVG hits per attack round [reference being AVG KC]
Provided SAM roll we might be seeing Round/WS = ~1.5 or something like that.[Idk if its worth losing all that DEX though]
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By Rainemard 2018-09-13 01:32:02  
My god, that's great news. I was dreading to give up the 3FM steps, I can't imagine living without at this point. It was so strange to me that PK did so little while I bust out WAY higher numbers in the game, figured it had to do with Mythic bonus. Happy DNC, now to find a use for the dyna dagger...
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2018-09-13 02:05:42  
Modified Airy Buckler with [200 TP bonus + 3 C.Rate] since Fencer /WAR and:

Setan B/Buckler:4618.446
Twashtar/Buckler:5098.920
Terp/Twashtar:5122.336 [/SAM+PK]

Same TP Set.
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By SimonSes 2018-09-13 02:06:22  
E217
Code
=1+IF(Setup!C27="Pyrrhic Kleos",IF(OR(Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 90",Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 95"),0.15,IF(OR(Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 99",Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 119",Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 119 III"),0.3,IF(Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 119 III Aug",0.45,0))),IF(Setup!C27="Rudra's Storm",IF(Gear!Y3="Twashtar 119 III Aug",0.1,0),0))


D217
Code
=1+IF(Setup!B27="Pyrrhic Kleos",IF(OR(Gear!B3="Terpsichore 90",Gear!B3="Terpsichore 95"),0.15,IF(OR(Gear!B3="Terpsichore 99",Gear!B3="Terpsichore 119",Gear!B3="Terpsichore 119 III"),0.3,IF(Gear!B3="Terpsichore 119 III Aug",0.45,0))),IF(Setup!B27="Rudra's Storm",IF(Gear!B3="Twashtar 119 III Aug",0.1,0),0))


This will cover +10% Rudra for Twashtar
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2018-09-13 02:16:12  
SimonSes said: »
E217
Code
=1+IF(Setup!C27="Pyrrhic Kleos",IF(OR(Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 90",Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 95"),0.15,IF(OR(Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 99",Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 119",Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 119 III"),0.3,IF(Gear!Y3="Terpsichore 119 III Aug",0.45,0))),IF(Setup!C27="Rudra's Storm",IF(Gear!Y3="Twashtar 119 III Aug",0.1,0),0))


D217
Code
=1+IF(Setup!B27="Pyrrhic Kleos",IF(OR(Gear!B3="Terpsichore 90",Gear!B3="Terpsichore 95"),0.15,IF(OR(Gear!B3="Terpsichore 99",Gear!B3="Terpsichore 119",Gear!B3="Terpsichore 119 III"),0.3,IF(Gear!B3="Terpsichore 119 III Aug",0.45,0))),IF(Setup!B27="Rudra's Storm",IF(Gear!B3="Twashtar 119 III Aug",0.1,0),0))


This will cover +10% Rudra for Twashtar

D217 should be 110% and D217 145%
When I paste the ones you provided it reverses them, so I copied D217 to E217 and vice-versa.
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By SimonSes 2018-09-13 02:24:05  
Im sure I havent made any mistake there.
E217 is for SET2 so it has Setup!C27 which is WS for set2 and Gear!Y3 which is a main weapon for SET2

D217 is SET1 and it has Setup!B27 which is WS for SET1 and Gear!B3 which is a main weapon for SET1

It it the same set of conditions just for 2 different Cells. If you put Twashtar 119 III Aug in main hand for SET1, it will make D217 = 110%. If you put Twashtar 119 III Aug in main hand for SET2, it will make E217 = 110%

TL;DR don't do any reverse things. It should go to the cells I listed.
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2018-09-13 02:24:30  
After AM3 modifications:[No Clim, No Striking, No PDL]

Dagger DPS
Aeneas/Twashtar 4437.700
Terpsichore/Twashtar 5122.336
Twashtar/Aeneas 4266.666
Setan A/Twashtar 3705.047
Setan B/Twashtar 4406.874
Setan C/Twashtar 3527.274
*Setan B/Airy Buckler 4618.446
*Twashtar/Airy Buckler 5098.920


* is under /WAR and Fighter's Roll.


DNC Sheet

SimonSes said: »
TL;DR don't do any reverse things. It should go to the cells I listed.

Yeah I think it didnt load on Google Docs ...

Also can we check Occ Does Triple DMG for Twashtar AM3? because I have doubts its actually triple DMG.
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 Phoenix.Dabackpack
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By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2018-09-13 02:30:46  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
After AM3 modifications:

Dagger DPS
Aeneas/Twashtar 4437.700
Terpsichore/Twashtar 5122.336
Twashtar/Aeneas 4094.683
Setan A/Twashtar 3705.047
Setan B/Twashtar 4406.874
Setan C/Twashtar 3527.274


DNC Sheet

This is absolutely just music to my ears
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By SimonSes 2018-09-13 02:43:09  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »

Also can we check Occ Does Triple DMG for Twashtar AM3? because I have doubts its actually triple DMG.

Well it kinda does, but it's not intuitive to set up.
Since ODD in this sheet is set up manually and it's mechanic is just simple Damage * xx%, to simulate 50% Occasionally triple damage, you need to set ODD at 100%. 80% for OTD 40%(AM2) and 60% for OTD 30%(AM1)
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By Sockfoot 2018-09-13 02:43:15  
I'm happy to see the non-dual wield setups coming back into light
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2018-09-13 02:50:11  
Modified Twashtar/Aeneas number after 100% ODD in schedule [dont worry didnt change order]

Also a small disclaimer that needs to be taken seriously:
The moment Clim Rudra is utilized, the variations are drastic in favor of Rudra Dancers for obvious reasons, yet I believe we are all glad to see Terp being a very solid contender along side buckler route too.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-09-13 03:18:48  
Those numbers are surprising.
The difference between, say, a Terps/Twash and an Aeneas/Twash seemed a bit too big to me so I went and tested a few things in the spreadsheet.

Noticed that Terps/Twash wins over Aeneas/Twash EVEN with AM3 down, which is even more surprising. Wtf?
Likewise for Twash/Buckler, wow... Not so happy this performs so good. A DW job that has a non-DW option perform so incredibly good (2nd best) is "fun" but not "good" in my eyes.
But then again I couldn't spot any error in the spreadsheet so I guess that's how things are?
On one hand, I'm happy to see Terps perform so good, it's no longer the "DPS inferior but cool to play" option, it's clearly the BiS option period.
On the other hand ~600 dps between 1st and 2nd DW options is pretty big.
Was the difference between Terps and Aeneas this big, pre patch? I seem to recall they were closer than ~600 dps apart.



Anyway, some things to consider:
1) The Spreadsheet doesn't (completely) take into account the overTP. With the amount of MA/STP we have these days, it's unavoidable even if you spam your macros. This will benefit Rudra builds (Aneas and Twash MH ones) over PK.

2) Spreadsheet atm doesn't take into account the 3x Climactic Rudra you can shoot everytime Flourish3 is ready. This benefits Aeneas and Twash MH builds (granted Terps users can choose to use Rudra during Climactic instead of PK...)


I don't think these aspects will change much. The hierarchy is definitely gonna stay like Kat listed.
Numbers will be a biiit closer maybe?


Edit:
also stuff like Crystalline Blessing and Warcry will probably be in favor of builds that use Rudra, but then again it's not like you get those buffs very often, so I can agree leaving them out of the picture honestly.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-09-13 03:36:19  
SimonSes said: »
I haven't used Saber Dance in ages on DNC. Every time I bring DNC I definitely take advantage of waltzes and not being able to use them with Saber Dance is just a big no for me. I use Fan Dance 99% of the time and I actually only have Aeneas and Twashtar, so it's not because i'm biased toward Terpsi.
Personally I keep Fan Dance up most of the time.
I do still use Saber occasionally though, like if I'm doing something where I want a small additional burst of damage for short fights where there's not too much danger for me.
For instance Fetters on Wave3 when we're saccing.

The only negative thing I find in Fan Dance is on Wave3 megabosses.
On one hand it gives you additional survivability in case you get enmity and/or get hit by physical AoE.
On the other hand it makes reaching the enmity cap faster, which means more frequent Utsusemi casting which also means small DPS loss because of the casting itself.
I still use Fan Dance on those bosses though.
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By geigei 2018-09-13 03:39:07  
Spreadsheets are the new napkins, meanwhile i'm happy using aeneas/twashtar.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-09-13 03:41:23  
geigei said: »
Spreadsheets are the new napkins, meanwhile i'm happy using aeneas/twashtar.
Aeneas/Twash is still a pretty solid option, didn't want to deny that.
But having it SO MUCH behind Terps/Twash (or the ridiculous Twash/Buckler) is a bit unwelcome. I mean it's further below even with AM3 down, it's insane °-°

Really, I don't recall the opposite (Terps/Twash behind Aeneas/Twash) having such a big difference pre-patch, but I might be wrong hey.
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By geigei 2018-09-13 03:55:16  
Aeneas really picked the short straw with exenterator dmg boost (sequence too) making mythic/emp more attractive.

I'm intrigued on single wield but cant find a reason to try it unless i'm doing dyna bosses, most stuff i engage i just need fast tp for sc, single wield will be slower right?
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By phunky 2018-09-13 04:06:32  
I've been exclusively using the Terp/Buckler combo the past year and TP gain is extremely fast with AM3 up. Solo 5 step SC is pretty trivial without the use of reverse flourish meditate or Sekkanoki.
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By geigei 2018-09-13 04:18:52  
What about twashtar main hand tp gain?
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-09-13 04:20:37  
Kat didn't include Terps/Buckler or Aeneas/Buckler in her tier list.
Before the patch it was further down than other DW options and the only one that came really close was Twash/Buckler, if I recall.

Now Twash/Buckler is actually the second best option in terms of DPS output, slightly below the first and far above the next DW one (Aeneas/Twash).

I'm all for diversity in gameplay but personally I don't like this.
I'd say the same if DNC's best option was to main hand an Axe or MNK's best DPS option was to use a Staff instead of punches.
These "strange" setups should be alternative, it's all good if they're "viable" for funz and whatever else, but having them perform THIS good is imo wrong in term of game design.


It's just my personal taste of course, I don't think it creates any negative conseguence for the game and its players after all.
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By geigei 2018-09-13 04:22:49  
If only we had a blurred shield +1 counterpart.
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By SimonSes 2018-09-13 04:23:54  
Twashtar/Buckler is probably first DPS wise. I don't think that 5098.920 dPS for it was with roight amount of ODD. I can see 5366.865 in sheet now with the right amount. The problem with that setup is, when you lose Haste Samba, you lose almost 1000 DPS, while with DW you lose almost nothing.

EDIT: actually nvm, that 5366 is also with selected Climatic.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2018-09-13 08:07:15  
Yeah, I did mention that the moment you use clim, the list changes drastically for Rudra Dancers.

I’d actually want to have more than one solid option to DPS Sechs since I strongly believe that it’s the right narrative to how DNC was designed to begin with.
Countless times I find myself changing my play style to fit in my role with group perfectly on the go.

I also believe that DNC will appeal to a wider player base for that sole reason alone.
Not only it’s the highest 1H DPS job it’s also extremely competitive with 2H Jobs [sometimes even on top] if [Trance+Grand Pas] was used in a timely manner.
You can Tank ridiculously good in end game content without much effort, you can stack more debuffs and Heal like a boss whenever you want and subtle blow is the cherry on top!
And in solo play it’s hands down one of the best jobs out there to have....

I’m 100% certain that new paradigms will emerge from Setan in Main hand or offhand! Furthering the appeal that this job will have amongst the player base.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-09-13 08:13:30  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Yeah, I did mention that the moment you use clim, the list changes drastically for Rudra Dancers.
Climatic clearly favors Rudra users, but as I mentioned before this doesn't mean that a Terps user (who mainly relies on PK spam as close as possible to 1k TP) is forbidden from using Rudra during Climatic.

I mean, you could spam PK and use Rudra during Climactic.
This makes, what would normally be a pretty huge difference in favor of non-terps user, a much less relevant thing.
I think at least?



Still, does anybody have an answer to the question I raised above?
Anybody remembers the DPS difference between Aeneas/Twash and Terps/Twash from before the patch?
I swear it wasn't as big as ~600 dps, but please someone prove me wrong, I'd be quite glad!
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 Asura.Splendid
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By Asura.Splendid 2018-09-13 08:48:18  
Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
After AM3 modifications:

Dagger DPS
Aeneas/Twashtar 4437.700
Terpsichore/Twashtar 5122.336
Twashtar/Aeneas 4094.683
Setan A/Twashtar 3705.047
Setan B/Twashtar 4406.874
Setan C/Twashtar 3527.274


DNC Sheet

This is absolutely just music to my ears

Sounds about right. This also makes me happy to hear. I still think in really short encounters such as three stepping (CDC > Req > Clim Rudra) on Pallia or Seiryu Aeneas is a really good choice since the fights are so short <30 sec.

I also want to echo some others here...I also use/abuse stance dancing when the situation calls for it. Sometimes if I’m in a full melee party without a proper healer I’ll fulltime Fan dance with Terp AM3 up and have practically no issues keeping my party alive for the duration of an encounter. Is there a way to track HPS (healing per second) in XI? I’d be curious to see what our maximum potential is during the course of a longer encounter with DNC as a healer vs. let’s say a WHM. Of course this would only include fights you’d want to bring melee to. I suspect it would look pretty good considering Divine Waltz II spam during AoE heavy fights usually gets a party back to full or near full HP.

All of this said, when I have a proper healer/support built into my party I full time Saber dance (5/5). I very rarely use any sub other than /SAM—-especially when I’m using Terp.

Honestly, on the Kober augs I think it would’ve been neat for an augment that decreased the CD of Contradance. It’s disappointing the augs were overall somewhat uninspired. The subtle blow aug does seem neat. Has anyone played with or built a set around Subtle Blow? Is it even effective?
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 Sylph.Zeocat
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By Sylph.Zeocat 2018-09-13 10:13:41  
I just got my terp to 119 yesterday. Glad to see my investment wasn't in vain after this update!
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2018-09-13 13:42:47  
Asura.Sechs said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Yeah, I did mention that the moment you use clim, the list changes drastically for Rudra Dancers.
Climatic clearly favors Rudra users, but as I mentioned before this doesn't mean that a Terps user (who mainly relies on PK spam as close as possible to 1k TP) is forbidden from using Rudra during Climatic.

I mean, you could spam PK and use Rudra during Climactic.
This makes, what would normally be a pretty huge difference in favor of non-terps user, a much less relevant thing.
I think at least?

I was to understand that was how everybody used Terps: even if for whatever reason you never use it otherwise, Rudra's > Rudra's during Climactic is still a marquee feature of the job.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2018-09-13 13:47:40  
Shiva.Arislan said: »
Asura.Eiryl said: »
It can't be measured in dps by a spreadsheet because the only thing that matters is dps. remember it doesnt matter how fun or safe it is, if it takes 1 extra second to kill an enemy it's absolute garbage.

Um, no.

Not sure why people insist on treating this game like it's a *** time trial. Speed =/= success. Winning parse is meaningless if you lose the fight. Zerging doesn't work if people end up flat on their ***.

Use your abilities. Use your -DT sets. Use mechanics to your advantage. Use your Terps. If it means upping the margin of error in a fight, do it. An extra second, or a few minutes, doesn't matter if it helps to ensure that everybody goes home happy the first time.

also i remember posting something along these lines ("waltzes are good") a few years ago and people got so mad
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-09-13 15:00:09  
ScaevolaBahamut said: »
also i remember posting something along these lines ("waltzes are good") a few years ago and people got so mad

Hahaha yeah. Not quite the same, but kinda like the sh*tshow I experienced in the NIN forum when I dared to suggest that Kannagi, and not Aeonic, tends to be the best NIN mainhand when not heavily buffed. People got downright MAD that I would dare assume anything but GEO+BRD+COR and capped attack 100% of the time (for NINJA, mmkay?), because apparently ideal spreadsheet conditions are the one and only consideration for anyone who hits a mob ever.

More on topic for DNC, I had put the job somewhat to the side for a while, but cleaned up my sets and took it out for Dyna clears in the past few weeks and it really reminded me how much fun the job is and what great tools it has. Lousy support on a couple Wave 1&2 farming/clear runs, so I really made great use of Samba, Waltzes, Fan Dance... in addition to Climactic Rudra's (oh so nice on those pesky NIN mobs). Survival for days, and still won the parse (on an admittedly far from optimal setup). And as a somewhat more casual Dancer, I'm still rocking Skinflayer/Sari... really gotta finish up my T4s for Aeneas!

Feels like it's only gonna get better for DNC too. How could Empy reforge set be anything but a monster (c'mon SE, give us that WSD+10% on Maculele Tiara +3...)?
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 Bismarck.Ringoko
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By Bismarck.Ringoko 2018-09-13 18:09:17  
Safe to assume Twashtar is inferior to Aeonic/Capped Sari until AG in the offhand?
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By Sockfoot 2018-09-13 18:11:26  
Bismarck.Ringoko said: »
Safe to assume Twashtar is inferior to Aeonic/Capped Sari until AG in the offhand?
Yep
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