The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On

言語: JP EN DE FR
2010-06-21
New Items
users online
フォーラム » FFXI » Jobs » Dancer » The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On
The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On
First Page 2 3 4 ... 79 80 81
 Carbuncle.Skudo
Offline
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
user: SKudo
By Carbuncle.Skudo 2015-01-13 10:42:23  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Has anyone done number crunching (in the post Rudra buff world) for when using SC Bonus gear is worth it, if ever? What's the difference between the SC bonus options and the "standard" Rudra's sets? I'm guessing it's not worth bothering with at low TP, but what about closing with a 3000TP Rudra (and/or Climactic Flourish)?

For that matter, is Mujin Band (+5%, right?) potentially worth it? Especially comparing to something like an NQ Ramuh for those who might not have the pricey +1.

And are we sure how Charis+2 hands compare to ilevel options? 10% is a lot of SC bonus, and they at least get DEX+9 as well. Compared to something like Nom+1, there's a big loss of STR (+14) and DEX (+25), but making up as best you can in other slots with potentially a 50% SC Bonus 3000tp CF+Rudra sounds like it might be at least worth looking at numbers before an outright dismissal.

Obviously you're gonna run a risk of significantly worse WS numbers if someone interrupts your SC, but if you're confident you can hit SC it's an intriguing thought...

"Skillchain Bonus"+x essentially means we're dealing

Quote:
1 - (1.23 + x / 100) / 1.23

more damage with our Skillchain when closing Darkness. Based on this, the actual damage increase, using the following pieces:

charis bangles +2: +8.13%
maxixi tights +1: +9.75%
mujin band: +4.065%

---

Whenever we deal x more damage on our closing WS, our damage gain is x + 1.23 * x = 2.23 * x, because that additional WS damage affects our SC damage, too. So the questions for each of those items:

Charis Bangles +1: "Does Nomkahpa Mittens +1 add 3.646% to Rudra's Storm?"

By using Nomkahpa Mittens +1, we gain 25 DEX, 14 STR, 22 Attack and some Double Attack. That's 20 WSC and 3.5 fSTR. 23.5 is 3.646% of something around 645. 108 (Izhiikoh) + 20 (capped fSTR) + 210 (ballpark of WSC) is waaaaaaay less than that, so Charis Bangles +2 is worse, even before looking at the increase of Attack and those possible additional hits.

Tossing that kind of math at other things.


Maxixi Tights +1: "Does Manibozho Brais add 4.372% to Rudra's Storm?"

DEX+22, STR-6, ATK+12: 17.6 WSC, -1.5 fSTR.

16.1 / 0.04372 = 368.252

Using the numbers above, it's a lot closer, but Maxixi Tights won't beat Manibozho Brais, even when closing Darkness like that.


Mujin Band: "Does Ramuh Ring add 1.823% to Rudra's Storm?"

DEX+8: 6.4 WSC

6.4 / 0.01823 = 351.070

Same here, even though it's really close.
[+]
 Phoenix.Capuchin
Offline
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
user: Anza
Posts: 2174
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2015-01-13 17:01:54  
Thanks for the extremely helpful reply!

Doesn't look like any SC damage bonus gear is worthwhile even in ideal conditions then. And even if it was a toss-up or slight edge to SC Bonus, I'd be a little reluctant when playing with other DDs just due to the reality of frequent SC interruptions (leaving you with just a worse WS than you'd have if you used non SC Bonus gear).

Guess we'll have to wait and see if ilevel Empy hands change that story and make people actually consider using SC Bonus gear (seems like that's the best chance).
 Lakshmi.Byrth
VIP
Offline
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Byrthnoth
Posts: 5491
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2015-01-13 17:18:54  
You're assuming that the closing darkness mimics the closing WS's damage, when in fact it will not. A few patches back SE added a multiplier term that's supposed to be based on some combination of iLevel and the monster's elemental weaknesses. It varies from something like +0% to +50%.

Additionally, if making a 3 step Darkness, the closing skillchain does 50% more damage than the closing WS.


So skillchain damage gear can be worthwhile. The real issue is that it's difficult to utilize it.
[+]
 Odin.Nikia
Offline
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: intrloper
Posts: 134
By Odin.Nikia 2015-01-13 18:50:22  
No place for Charis Casaque +2 anymore?
 Siren.Seiri
Offline
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
user: seiri
Posts: 482
By Siren.Seiri 2015-01-13 19:18:35  
Odin.Nikia said: »
No place for Charis Casaque +2 anymore?

I believe it's still the best assuming u don't need acc and aren't receiving buffs.
 Odin.Nikia
Offline
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: intrloper
Posts: 134
By Odin.Nikia 2015-01-13 19:24:06  
was looking at the new gear sets and didnt see it even mentioned so was unsure.
 Siren.Seiri
Offline
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
user: seiri
Posts: 482
By Siren.Seiri 2015-01-13 19:35:25  
Odin.Nikia said: »
was looking at the new gear sets and didnt see it even mentioned so was unsure.

I derped and didn't look at the new sets.

I'm not a derps dnc but I honestly can't see how qaxxo beats charis when u dont need the acc.
 Valefor.Sapphire
Offline
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1828
By Valefor.Sapphire 2015-01-13 19:46:59  
You'll still want the charis casaque +2 for dynamis/salvage if you do those things with dancer.

For any solo *or* group content that's iLevel content such as a battlefield/Adoulin, and you start getting buffs from trusts/etc, then Horos+1/Dread Jupon/Emet are the types of bodyarmor you want to be wearing.

If you dont have dread jupon/emet+1 and plan to play dnc alot you can pretty much live in horos+1 body if you have limited resources or want to prioritize other things.
The Horos body tp bonus from popping nofoot rise with it on is a sweet bonus, its a good acc+atk tp body with a splash of pdt, and its got acc+VF bonus so you'll use it for a step/flourish macro set.
 Siren.Seiri
Offline
サーバ: Siren
Game: FFXI
user: seiri
Posts: 482
By Siren.Seiri 2015-01-13 20:01:32  
Valefor.Sapphire said: »
You'll still want the charis casaque +2 for dynamis/salvage if you do those things with dancer.

For any solo *or* group content that's iLevel content such as a battlefield/Adoulin, and you start getting buffs from trusts/etc, then Horos+1/Dread Jupon/Emet are the types of bodyarmor you want to be wearing.

If you dont have dread jupon/emet+1 and plan to play dnc alot you can pretty much live in horos+1 body if you have limited resources or want to prioritize other things.
The Horos body tp bonus from popping nofoot rise with it on is a sweet bonus, its a good acc+atk tp body with a splash of pdt, and its got acc+VF bonus so you'll use it for a step/flourish macro set.

Thanks for clearing up.
 Carbuncle.Skudo
Offline
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
user: SKudo
By Carbuncle.Skudo 2015-01-13 20:15:05  
Charis Casaque +2 and Thaumas Coat will be dealt with when I post "fodder" gear.
 Carbuncle.Skudo
Offline
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
user: SKudo
By Carbuncle.Skudo 2015-01-13 20:35:47  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
You're assuming that the closing darkness mimics the closing WS's damage, when in fact it will not. A few patches back SE added a multiplier term that's supposed to be based on some combination of iLevel and the monster's elemental weaknesses. It varies from something like +0% to +50%.

Additionally, if making a 3 step Darkness, the closing skillchain does 50% more damage than the closing WS.


So skillchain damage gear can be worthwhile. The real issue is that it's difficult to utilize it.

Admittedly, that was simplified by totally omitting the unknown modifiers, which would affect both sides equally.

The "Skillchain Bonus" (SCB) part is applied before most other multipliers, but the relative change of the SCB multiplier is as shown above and due to the lack of "Magic Damage" in our WS gear, it also reflects the increase of SC damage that is contributed by SCB gear. Except for flooring after each step, WS + SC * SCB * rest = WS + SC * rest * SCB.

When 3-stepping, SC damage increases, yes. But isn't it WS + bigger_SC * SCB * rest still, so with bigger WSs, "bigger_SC" increases by e. g. 1.5 * WS difference (3-step) instead of 1 * WS difference, meaning the effect of that WS difference gets even bigger, before we apply SCB and all other multipliers. So if anything, doesn't that even moreso speak against SCB gear?

Did my train of thought derail at some crucial point?
 Lakshmi.Byrth
VIP
Offline
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Byrthnoth
Posts: 5491
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2015-01-13 20:53:50  
I guess so, yeah. For some reason I didn't consider that the WS damage was also multiplicative.
 Carbuncle.Skudo
Offline
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
user: SKudo
By Carbuncle.Skudo 2015-01-15 03:42:43  
Yay, small upgrade that makes Windower explode. \o/



The only semi-relevant thing Dancers got in this update, I think. Only useful when...

* Attack capped
* fSTR capped
* Your Unity does not suck

iuitl tights +1 pulls ahead in that fodder-esque situation without any augments already, so there's about no reason to even upgrade this Subligar.

Hooray for nothing to work on in this update!
 Lakshmi.Byrth
VIP
Offline
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Byrthnoth
Posts: 5491
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2015-01-15 05:19:07  
They also added a VIT/CHR+9 neck.

Too bad they left us off the Sirocco Kukri +1. Q.Q;

Edit: After spreadsheeting it, it's only a minor DPS increase but it would have been nice >:/ Also, I'll note that Atoyac is competitive with/better than Izhiikoh as an offhand even if it drops your offhand down to 80% hit rate.
 Phoenix.Capuchin
Offline
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
user: Anza
Posts: 2174
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2015-01-16 15:19:09  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
They also added a VIT/CHR+9 neck.

Also Enmity+8/9 (NQ/HQ), so if you weren't tanking already you will be! Assuming you're not using Saber Dance and are actually waltzing in a party situation to begin with.

While I'm tempted to care to keep my Waltz set up, I've found I rarely even use Curing Waltzes any more between having Trusts and being with actual healers. Even trying to tank stuff with Fan Dance where you might think you could care about Waltz & enmity, I generally find it better to use TP for WS and just get cures from an actual healer.

I basically only use Curing/Divine Waltz when I'm with lazy/bad healers or in something like a really slapdash LS Incursion CP farm party with wacky setups so people can get CP on the job they feel like. Or for non-Trust solo, in which case extra VIT+8/9 and CHR+0/1 (over Dualism+1) is laughable since it's super easy content anyway.

I'll still probably at least get the NQ for lack of better stuff to do :P
 Lakshmi.Byrth
VIP
Offline
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Byrthnoth
Posts: 5491
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2015-01-16 15:36:17  
I basically maintain a Waltz set so I have something more to do. It's not really worth it for any other purpose, and I think I've used Waltz only a handful of times in parties. It's a good card to have in your back pocket (like Fan Dance), but it's not really gamebreaking to have an extra 20 HP healed.
 Phoenix.Capuchin
Offline
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
user: Anza
Posts: 2174
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2015-01-16 15:43:06  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
I basically maintain a Waltz set so I have something more to do. It's not really worth it for any other purpose, and I think I've used Waltz only a handful of times in parties. It's a good card to have in your back pocket (like Fan Dance), but it's not really gamebreaking to have an extra 20 HP healed.

Yeah, same - something to do, so I keep mine current for no great benefit. Though I'm almost irritated that I'll feel like going out for this really irrelevant upgrade :P. Considering the absolute lack of compelling content from Dec/Jan updates (and probably Feb too from early reports), I guess I should be happy that there's at least SOMETHING to spend a little time on, regardless of how insignificant.
 Valefor.Sapphire
Offline
サーバ: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1828
By Valefor.Sapphire 2015-01-16 16:30:39  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Too bad they left us off the Sirocco Kukri +1. Q.Q;
I dont want anymore daggers to carry around unless they have hit-vfx/pulse/sparkle like these babies

Its beyond dumb that nothing from the SoA expansion for any job or gearslot glows/sparkles like the stuff from the vw+meebles content era. Would grind large amounts of bayld/plasm/whatever for an ilevel sparkly weapon sidegrade for my offhand.
[+]
 Lakshmi.Byrth
VIP
Offline
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Byrthnoth
Posts: 5491
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2015-01-16 16:34:52  
My afterglow 119 Terpsichore sparkles and is from the Adoulin era!
[+]
 Odin.Nikia
Offline
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: intrloper
Posts: 134
By Odin.Nikia 2015-01-17 02:08:58  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
For Waltz <= 3 and HW:
ItemSet 327781

For Waltz >3 and DW:
ItemSet 332138

Still very new to DNC but wanted to ask about this please.
Why two different sets?
 Asura.Darvamos
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Demmis
Posts: 234
By Asura.Darvamos 2015-01-17 06:19:08  
The Anwig Salade can be augged with Waltz ability delay -2. If your using anything over waltz 3 then you didn't really care about the recast time and needed max curing.

Edit: Also the ring slot changes because your loosing Waltz pot in the first set so its better then chr.
 Odin.Nikia
Offline
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: intrloper
Posts: 134
By Odin.Nikia 2015-01-17 13:01:21  
The augment i have for both items I just didnt know if maybe the formula charged or something at CW4 and above.
 Bahamut.Flareon
Offline
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: Flareon
Posts: 96
By Bahamut.Flareon 2015-01-17 13:07:16  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
They also added a VIT/CHR+9 neck.

Also Enmity+8/9 (NQ/HQ), so if you weren't tanking already you will be! Assuming you're not using Saber Dance and are actually waltzing in a party situation to begin with.

While I'm tempted to care to keep my Waltz set up, I've found I rarely even use Curing Waltzes any more between having Trusts and being with actual healers. Even trying to tank stuff with Fan Dance where you might think you could care about Waltz & enmity, I generally find it better to use TP for WS and just get cures from an actual healer.

I basically only use Curing/Divine Waltz when I'm with lazy/bad healers or in something like a really slapdash LS Incursion CP farm party with wacky setups so people can get CP on the job they feel like. Or for non-Trust solo, in which case extra VIT+8/9 and CHR+0/1 (over Dualism+1) is laughable since it's super easy content anyway.

I'll still probably at least get the NQ for lack of better stuff to do :P

Well, correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the VIT a part of the formula that belongs to the target of the waltz? In that case this new collar will only be more useful than dualism +1 if you're casting on yourself, so i'd set a rule so i would only equip it if i'm the target. That would mean a -1 in the inventory, which is around 153/160 with DNC stuff, but as I do lots of PUGs, high waltz potency is usually one of my most important traits, specially when the healer derps.

Besides, since Rudra's became the monster it is now, i am seeing tankers failing to keep hate from me, so i don't think that a little bit of hate from eventual curing would be a great deal.
 Lakshmi.Byrth
VIP
Offline
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Byrthnoth
Posts: 5491
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2015-01-17 14:03:40  
VIT does only matter for the target of the Waltz, yes. However, tanks already don't hold hate off me ever, and between me and someone else I'd rather have the hate on me.
[+]
 Phoenix.Capuchin
Offline
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
user: Anza
Posts: 2174
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2015-01-17 20:25:29  
Bahamut.Flareon said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Or for non-Trust solo, in which case extra VIT+8/9 and CHR+0/1 (over Dualism+1) is laughable since it's super easy content anyway.

Well, correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the VIT a part of the formula that belongs to the target of the waltz? In that case this new collar will only be more useful than dualism +1 if you're casting on yourself

Exactly. The NQ Unmoving Collar is the same CHR as Dualism+1, so identical for amount cured on others. Unmoving+1 has 1 more CHR, which is so miniscule (low single digits) you can effectively ignore it. Your equipped VIT makes no difference for amounts cured on others.

You shouldn't even BE Waltzing in a decent party 99% of the time (Saber Dance is a huge difference in DPS), and Trust healers also generally allow fulltime Saber even in most solo situations.

So:

Enmity is really irrelevant, since no waltzing in party = no point to even considering hate. Even on situations you might waltz (Fan Dance and hold an Incursion NM comes to mind), it's not a big deal since by the time you start fighting with the rest of the party you're better off holding hate (whether you want to or not) by using your TP for WS.

All of which means the only real difference from Dualism+1 is VIT+8/9 for slightly stronger self-waltzes when solo without trusts, which... yeah, I guess it's better. But actually important? If an extra VIT+8/9 worth's HP cured actually matters to you in the least for Dyna/Salvage, I'm at a loss for what to say to you.

But yeah, as a silly pursuit, whatever. I'll probably grab one just because lol. At least I can sell my Dualism+1 and make a little extra gil - roughly 400k currently on my server - that's really the biggest benefit.

Can toss it on my RUN resist Charm set too, I guess? (sort of a silly set, but 3x dark runes and a few resist pieces like RUN AF legs, Aenotherus Mantle+1, and Hearty Earring means I can usually resist things like AAMR's charm).
[+]
 Odin.Nikia
Offline
サーバ: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: intrloper
Posts: 134
By Odin.Nikia 2015-01-18 22:20:18  
Code
        ammo="Ginsen",
        head="Iuitl Headgear +1",
        neck="Charis Necklace",
        lear="Brutal Earring",
        rear="Suppanomimi",
        body="Thaumas Coat",
        hands="Nomkah. Mittens +1",
        lring="Rajas Ring",
        rring="Epona's Ring",
        back={name="Toetapper Mantle",
            augment=
                '"Store TP"+2',
                '"Dual Wield"+5'},
        waist="Patentia Sash",
        legs="Sombra Tights +1",
        feet="Horos Toe Shoes +1"}


I am kinda confused, sorta..
This is the set been using for a bit since enp+2 body doesnt have haste, would like some input on changes.
For most part I dont worry about att capped vs uncapped sets so generally just wondering if this setup is good or what I might want to change.

deley capped i change out some items:
Code
        neck="Asperity Necklace",
        rear="Tripudio Earring",
        waist="Windbuffet Belt +1",
        legs="Iuitl Tights +1"}


will welcome any input please. thank you kindly
 Asura.Kaitaru
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Kaitaru89
Posts: 607
By Asura.Kaitaru 2015-01-18 22:38:23  
BLU is a bandwagon job now or did I read that wrong? If so sad face ;_;
 Sylph.Oraen
Offline
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Gaztastic
Posts: 2053
By Sylph.Oraen 2015-01-18 22:43:03  
BLU has been a bandwagon job since Abyssea and people found out just how easy it was to cleave with them. Luckily, most people who hop on that bandwagon understand nothing about it, so it's always easy to tell actual BLU players from the bandwagon.
 Asura.Kaitaru
Offline
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Kaitaru89
Posts: 607
By Asura.Kaitaru 2015-01-18 22:57:55  
I was just speaking about SoA moving forward into current content, I remember seeing a lot of MNK and SAM but not so much BLU ever.
 Sylph.Oraen
Offline
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Gaztastic
Posts: 2053
By Sylph.Oraen 2015-01-18 23:08:59  
SAM has always been popular for endgame events, and THF is also another common pick since the Rudra's update. However, proper DNCs and BLUs can demolish content as well or better than them, but they're much more complicated jobs than the others. They're not seen as often because the majority of players have no idea what they do. But you'll still see a ton of BLUs in WKR or lower content because of the versatility that the job offers.
First Page 2 3 4 ... 79 80 81
Log in to post.