The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On

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The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On
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 Asura.Chiaia
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By Asura.Chiaia 2018-09-14 03:10:18  
Can you explain to me why Setan (B) was added with DA 60%, TA 10% and QA 1%?

Also was this how it was tested as for the listed DPS values above(last page)?
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By Malaketth 2018-09-14 07:28:44  
Honestly all the equipment in the spreadsheet could use a good scrubbing on stats.. so many people have updated and had a hand in these spreadsheets that numbers have been messed up and formulas at times hard-coded by mistake. There are also assumptions made that I wish could be at least explained in some sort of appendix tab. Like why all the geo buffs are wrong is I assume because of an assumption on how often Blaze or ecliptic is up except since there are flags to turn these buffs on and off that makes for flawed logic.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2018-09-14 13:00:48  
Asura.Chiaia said: »
Can you explain to me why Setan (B) was added with DA 60%, TA 10% and QA 1%?

Also was this how it was tested as for the listed DPS values above(last page)?

I did explain it before here and yes it was tested based on these stats:

Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Disclaimer Regarding Follow Up Attack Setan:
-I assumed that follow up attack will be 50% of MH in TP set and added 50% DA to mele hits that dont proc.
-Please correct this if it was assumed wrong.
-Used Same BiS Set for Twashtar[for all Setan]
-Final Stats are [60% DA, 10%TA, 1%QA]

I have converted the [Main hand MH procs in TP set + Decayed Saber Dance + Fighter's Crooked 11] into stats on dagger since each DA has a 50% to become TA and each TA to QA etc..then added 50% DA to mele hits that doesn't proc and honestly when I saw DA value I lowered it a bit, it was around 75%
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2018-09-14 13:03:03  
Malaketth said: »
Honestly all the equipment in the spreadsheet could use a good scrubbing on stats.. so many people have updated and had a hand in these spreadsheets that numbers have been messed up and formulas at times hard-coded by mistake. There are also assumptions made that I wish could be at least explained in some sort of appendix tab. Like why all the geo buffs are wrong is I assume because of an assumption on how often Blaze or ecliptic is up except since there are flags to turn these buffs on and off that makes for flawed logic.

Two things were mentioned before [repeatedly throughout the thread]:

-There is a Simulation being developed as we speak by Austar.
-Anyone is more than welcome to contribute to spreadsheet which by the way doesn't count for many factors/functionality this job has.

P.S maintaining this file mainly consists to adding new gear/upgrades etc.. nothing was altered in setup page.
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By Malaketth 2018-09-14 13:57:30  
Its nothing against you Katrina or the spreadsheets themselves its just they have so many moving parts and so much stuff is unprotected that people mess these up all the time and it bugs me a little bit. That or they have had to make assumptions, as you pointed out with the Setan augments, that eventually get lost or forgotten and will get mis-corrected later down the line. Like why is there a random 4% WS Damage added onto set 2 in the last sheet that was posted?

That aside going through these sheets for the first time lets me realize either A, I didn't fully understand how some bonuses works (more thank likely), B they were done incorrectly, or C someone tried to and failed to understand how to update a formula.

Like Climatic flourish is I assume done correctly but seems to be multiplicative with CHR bonus and not additive? Is there a good resource for this type of stuff? Given 100 CHR and full JP's should I get a bonus of 70 CHR (100*(.50+.20)) or 60 CHR (100*.50*1.20). Spreadsheet supports 60 but it's not really listed out in a guide anywhere or under the JP section on a wiki that I have found. Maybe its on one of the 57 pages in this thread but that's hard to keep tabs on.
 Leviathan.Andret
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By Leviathan.Andret 2018-09-14 14:27:13  
Well, at some point you are going to have to take the numbers at face value because you can't verify them.

People haven't been updating the wiki and cite their sauces. There are less and less doing so. When they don't, you don't have sauces. That means you will either have to head out and test it yourself or just assume the numbers and try to verify it with a parser as you play.

Or just take them as face value.
 Asura.Chiaia
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By Asura.Chiaia 2018-09-15 08:18:53  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Asura.Chiaia said: »
Can you explain to me why Setan (B) was added with DA 60%, TA 10% and QA 1%?

Also was this how it was tested as for the listed DPS values above(last page)?

I did explain it before here and yes it was tested based on these stats:
Ok I guess it was on the page before sorry I missed it. Thanks for the response.
 Valefor.Madranta
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By Valefor.Madranta 2018-09-16 04:00:33  
Hey all. I took the time to update the DNC DPS Spreadsheet with up-to-date rules and values. This is a file that I got from Motenten's G-Drive years ago, so it's been exposed to a lot fewer editors.

Some updated things of note:
  • Edit 2:I reuploaded the spreadsheet with tweaked pDIF formulas again. I'm fairly confident they are correct now.

  • pDIF caps were still at the outdated lower levels.

  • BRD songs values were all outdated

  • Fencer was coded into /WAR but used 5% Crit Rate and 20 TP Bonus (hello 100 TP WS days, lol) instead of 3% Crit and 200 TP Bonus. This also means that any previous results using the Airy Buckler with Fencer stats added onto the shield were getting a slightly excessive boost.

  • Offhand accuracy wasn't being calculated on mine. Other sheets I've seen calculate it but have it capping at 99% instead of 95%.

  • Twashtar's Aftermath cell now properly triples damage, so don't use 60-100% anymore, use 30-50%.

  • I did my best to add Setan (B) based on what I expect it to do. It's not perfect but I think it's more accurate than adding MA to the weapon. If Setan is mainhanded the average mainhand hits per round is multiplied by 1.5. [Edit: It now adds a flat 0.5 mainhand hits per round to match how Raetic weapons handle follow-up attack.] TP gain (Rounds/WS) is calculated from a much more complicated system so I had to Jerry-rig that. Weaponskill!T531 and T1064 have those rules.

  • All 3 Etoile Gorgets with Augments are added. Physical Damage Limit is still not fully understood to my knowledge but preliminary tests indicate it multiplies the pDIF cap by (1.06, 1.08 or 1.1), so that's what they do in the spreadsheet.

  • Lustratio set bonuses don't auto calculate so you'll see 4% WSD in the Custom bar to account for that. Delete it if you remove Lustratio gear in WS sets.


And finally what's the point of a DPS spreadsheet without some numbers? I'll spoiler the full list but highlight the top non-Centovente options below.

Terps & Twash /SAM Pyrrhic spam 6530.737
Terps & Twash /SAM Rudra's spam 5356.215
Twash & Airy /WAR Rudra's spam 6461.982
Aeneas & Twash /SAM Rudra's spam 5959.144
Setan(B) & Twash /SAM Rudra's spam 5933.612
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2018-09-16 05:32:50  
That's more or less what I got too.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2018-09-16 05:42:31  
That's wonderful! much appreciated.
Some gear need to be added but it wont be an issue now.[Added Some BiS Herc pieces and Attk wasnt capped in buffs]

And to conclude the updated list [By taking the highest 3 options for each weapon]:

Combination DPS Clim DPS
Aeneas/Twashtar 5959.14 14014.478
Aeneas/Centovente 5973.838 15157.507
Aeneas/Taming 5731.432 13651.756
Terpsichore/Twashtar 6530.737 --
**Terpsichore/Centovente 5758.268 14286.313
**Terpsichore/Twashtar 5356.215 11940.815
Twashtar/Taming 6144.314 13469.100
Twashtar/Centovente 7078.114 17053.923
*Twashtar/Airy 6461.982 14538.902
Setan B/Centovente 6574.215 16594.796
Setan B/Twashtar 5933.612 13561.310
*Setan B/Airy 5830.609 14425.064


* is under /WAR and Fighter's Roll.
** is under /SAM Rudra Spam.

  • We can see that both [Twashtar] and [Setan B] favor Airy over [Aeneas] and [Terpsichore]


  • Setan B and/or Terpsichore Clim Rudras are somewhat underwhelming.


  • Centovente is a bit tricky to approach but I think there is enough incentive to get one.


  • Twashtar/Centovente is a really broken combo [Highest Clim + Highest DPS]

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By geigei 2018-09-16 06:07:05  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Twashtar/Centovente is a really broken combo [Highest Clim + Highest DPS]
GDI stop making me grind stuff.
 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2018-09-16 06:17:35  
Was a bit skeptic about this dagger for quite some time now, but I think there is no harm in making one!
I mean you need like 280 extra Acc to make it close to other options .... and if for one second you forgot to ws at 1k, youre basically killing DPS even more.
Same reflexes as Terp Play Style.

Least we have things to do for DNC >:)
 Asura.Splendid
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By Asura.Splendid 2018-09-16 08:35:34  
geigei said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Twashtar/Centovente is a really broken combo [Highest Clim + Highest DPS]
GDI stop making me grind stuff.

Centovente with 10% WSD? Or TP bonus? That is so weird!!!! XDDD
 Leviathan.Sidra
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By Leviathan.Sidra 2018-09-16 08:40:18  
TP Bonus. Going from 1750 - 2750 TP on Rudra's is like a 60% increase in weaponskill damage. The issue is it's only for garbage content since you lose ilvl accuracy on the offhand. Although can probably work on Erinnys since you don't mele.

Anyone thought of using Ternary Flourish on Pyrrhic in the Terp sims instead of climactic rudras? Can use it twice as often. Probably about a 50% damage increase in pyrric each time it's used. It would be 50% if Pyrrhic never got in extra attacks without it...with the bonus CHA dmg bonus probably cancelling out the fact that it's not starting with a 0% chance to OAT.
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 Asura.Splendid
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By Asura.Splendid 2018-09-16 08:48:18  
Leviathan.Sidra said: »
TP Bonus. Going from 1750 - 2750 TP on Rudra's is like a 60% increase in weaponskill damage. The issue is it's only for garbage content since you lose ilvl accuracy on the offhand. Although can probably work on Erinnys since you don't mele.

Anyone thought of using Ternary Flourish on Pyrric in the Terp sims instead of climactic rudras? Can use it twice as often.

Thanks for the clarification. :)
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-09-16 11:09:42  
Valefor.Madranta said: »
I did my best to add Setan (B) based on what I expect it to do. It's not perfect but I think it's more accurate than adding MA to the weapon. If Setan is mainhanded the average mainhand hits per round is multiplied by 1.5. TP gain (Rounds/WS) is calculated from a much more complicated system so I had to Jerry-rig that. Weaponskill!T531 and T1064 have those rules.
bro, just take your average hits without setan b and add 0.5 to it and you're done. i don't know why everyone is doing all these inaccurately difficult ways
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By Afania 2018-09-16 11:20:03  
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Was a bit skeptic about this dagger for quite some time now,

I see people use that offhand on Teles zerg all the time, mostly because it's a fight with SV for surplus of acc, and nm itself isn't particularly evasive.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2018-09-16 11:21:16  
In Motenten's sheet, you set AM2-3 to 50% and AM2 to 100%
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-09-16 11:22:36  
Valefor.Madranta said: »
All 3 Etoile Gorgets with Augments are added. Physical Damage Limit is still not fully understood to my knowledge but preliminary tests indicate it multiplies the pDIF cap by (1.06, 1.08 or 1.1), so that's what they do in the spreadsheet.
it does increase the cap by that but before the +1 on crits are added.

so with max rank +2 being 10%, you get 3.25 * 1.1 + 1 for your crits instead of 4.25 * 1.1.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-09-16 11:23:35  
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
In Motenten's sheet, you set AM2-3 to 50% and AM2 to 100%
but follow up can proc on the same rounds as qa/ta/da hits. it's literally just +0.5 to your average hits on that weapon on tp phase.

instead of manually adjusting all the stats every time you change weapons, you can just make it a stat where if it's true, add 0.5 to tp phase hits per round. i don't see how that's any harder than the other way people are doing it and it's certainly more accurate with no room for error to forget to delete or add a stat to a weapon when changing
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2018-09-16 11:48:54  
I implemented it like that now and it is slightly better than it was but still not great. If it worked offhand we would be in business.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-09-16 11:58:56  
i just didn't understand all the weird or ridiculous ways to implement it, i didn't expect it to be all that great anyways. i don't use the sheets or know enough about excel to assist in updating them too much, but that one really bothered me.

when i finish my simulation, setan will gain some amount of ground, though, since it reduces step TP cost.
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By Rainemard 2018-09-16 12:04:34  
Interesting twist to the tier list: apparantly D weapons path A ODD can proc on WS. This means double damage rudras 50% of the time. Checked in spreadsheet and /sam with twash offhand appears to get 7611 DPS roughly. it'll be a bit less since made a makeshift solution to implement it into the spreadsheet, but it seems ridiculously strong. Used Madranta's settings for it, so it compares to his numbers. Any thoughts?
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-09-16 12:05:49  
yes, where did you see the testing on that?
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2018-09-16 12:13:00  
Rainemard said: »
Interesting twist to the tier list: apparantly D weapons path A ODD can proc on WS. This means double damage rudras 50% of the time. Checked in spreadsheet and /sam with twash offhand appears to get 7611 DPS roughly. it'll be a bit less since made a makeshift solution to implement it into the spreadsheet, but it seems ridiculously strong. Used Madranta's settings for it, so it compares to his numbers. Any thoughts?

whoa if true
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By Rainemard 2018-09-16 12:18:06  
Friend of mine tested it, though he did botch some of the conditions; he's used ground strike on mobs that die in 1 ws pretty much, was doing 11k consistently for the kill, spare very few that did 22k. Though he did have temper on, it wouldn't add THAT much damage, if any since he was using it on eschan efts (iirc). Might require more testing, but it seems stupid strong on single-hits and still really nice on multihits.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2018-09-16 12:44:51  
yeah, we'd probably need a better test to answer whether or not it happens and then another test after that to answer whether it applies to hits other than the first.
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By Rainemard 2018-09-16 13:01:59  
Still, if it'd just apply to first hit, that's a crazy rudra's spam weapon. as far as I can tell, nothing beats it in the long run (depending on procs ofc, if you're unlucky it's worse, if you're lucky it's retarded).
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-09-16 13:07:10  
It would be, so obscenely broken. There's no chance it works on ws.

And if it does, it's spaghetti code.
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By Rainemard 2018-09-16 13:22:52  
Spaghetti code isn't new to SE, and so far I don't see any other explanation. I've let a cor try it with his rostam on ranged ws, but that didn't proc at least, so silver lining if it does work; cor doesn't benefit from something finally! :')
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