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Bushido - The Way of The Samurai (A Guide) V. 2.0
 Leviathan.Vedder
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 306
By Leviathan.Vedder 2017-07-15 15:30:41
Hybrids all work the same, yes, and katana does have a few hybrids (Teki, Chi, To).
Hmmm I actually DO have some decent MAB+WSD pieces for NIN, thanks to Herculean gear for COR/RNG magical WS... time to go play with this! I started a thread in the nin forums for that. No sense putting it here. Thanks capu/Kyte
 Ragnarok.Phuoc
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 354
By Ragnarok.Phuoc 2017-07-15 15:38:35
Might test this on Schah sometime this week and see how it does, if it is that good be a nice alternative/replace to astral burning lol
(but i have to see it, 130 bats or crabs arent the same as 150 mean caturaes)
By Blazed1979 2017-07-15 15:40:30
All my ws's were pretty much done in Ken+1 gear with Masamune AG.
My SAM lua is trying to call up Salvage V 2 gear (that's how long its been since I was on SAM) so I had to turn off gearswap and make on the fly WS macros and didn't bother tweeking them.
I was also in a rush to get to a dinner with colleagues so I completely forgot to utilize the ridiculous amount of MAB accessories I have laying around.
But I'm convinced this is going to be a thing. Especially considering how well Jinpu can be placed into SC, and the fact that it SC's off itself.
Big thanks to Ruaumoko for posting this, great find. I might be able to convince the lads to come SAM for Aeonic runs instead of damn SMN all the time. Now if you could kindly find the equivalent for GreatAxe and H2H that would be swell.
By Blazed1979 2017-07-15 15:42:17
(but i have to see it, 130 bats or crabs arent the same as 150 mean caturaes) I had none Idris, none bolster or blaze of glory GEO buffs bro. I'm fairly certain we can get those numbers on 145+ content. We also get vorseal buffs and I wasn't using any food + those bats have that shitty ATK down debuff that is impossible to keep off, and was on me for all those screenshotted ws's.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1352
By Fenrir.Richybear 2017-07-15 15:45:24
and it was the hour your glasses were still at Lenscrafters
By Blazed1979 2017-07-15 15:47:52
Would like to see some Koga AM3 tests. I predict it will probably blow both Doji and Masa away.
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 Ragnarok.Fabiano
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 154
By Ragnarok.Fabiano 2017-07-15 15:54:07
ele neck better then Baetyl pendant for jinpu ?
By Blazed1979 2017-07-15 15:57:06
I think Fotia will do better, but needs a Sav or someone else to chime in to be sure. Otherwise tomorrow I'll test both in a controlled situation (not very efficient)
Leviathan.Vedder
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 306
By Leviathan.Vedder 2017-07-15 16:17:40
If its a bug with the ftp phase of the math I could see fotia being stronger but definitely need math gurus like Saev/byrth etc looking at it. Testing at 1k 2k an 3k as well seeing where anchor points are an such
By Blazed1979 2017-07-15 16:20:04
Don't think its a bug. I did about 30 Jinpu's consistently all doing 20k range with capped accuracy @ 3000 tp with no buffs or MAB. Piling on the MAB quickly demonstrated a very steep dmg rise.
Ragnarok.Phuoc
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 354
By Ragnarok.Phuoc 2017-07-15 16:40:09
(but i have to see it, 130 bats or crabs arent the same as 150 mean caturaes) I had none Idris, none bolster or blaze of glory GEO buffs bro. I'm fairly certain we can get those numbers on 145+ content. We also get vorseal buffs and I wasn't using any food + those bats have that shitty ATK down debuff that is impossible to keep off, and was on me for all those screenshotted ws's.
Yea will be fun to watch Schah getting tear down to pieces by to sams spamming jinpu lol, just need dani to man up and gear sam again lol.
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3628
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-07-15 16:45:36
Hybrids all work the same, yes, and katana does have a few hybrids (Teki, Chi, To).
Hmmm I actually DO have some decent MAB+WSD pieces for NIN, thanks to Herculean gear for COR/RNG magical WS... time to go play with this! I started a thread in the nin forums for that. No sense putting it here. Thanks capu/Kyte
I'll post my findings over in the NIN forum (and updated my post on last page).
TL;DR version: nope, didn't find any exceptional NIN WS and I have a pretty solid MAB/WSD WS set.
Ragnarok.Fabiano
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 154
By Ragnarok.Fabiano 2017-07-15 16:52:52
did pop a few escha zitah t1`s just to mess around , around 20-25k with 1k tp. a few spikes up to 52k .
all with amano
 Ramuh.Austar
サーバ: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10481
By Ramuh.Austar 2017-07-15 17:04:17
ele neck better then Baetyl pendant for jinpu ? fotia wins through all tp tiers
By Blazed1979 2017-07-15 17:04:26
did pop a few escha zitah t1`s just to mess around , around 20-25k with 1k tp. a few spikes up to 52k .
all with amano what buffs/gear setup?
Ragnarok.Fabiano
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 154
By Ragnarok.Fabiano 2017-07-15 18:09:00
pretty much founders body feet hands caped , ele neck/ belt , moonshade / frio . double ifrit +1 rings . just chaos roll from cor trust and x4 brd trust songs .
also wasnt there a incursion head piece wich was pretty good for magic ws`s ?
will add star sibyl later and check again
Leviathan.Vedder
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 306
By Leviathan.Vedder 2017-07-15 19:42:35
You aren't the first to notice, no.
So how long has this been a thing and do you believe its legit and not bugged at all? Is the jinpu ftp/mods/what have you messed up?
Leviathan.Sidra
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 334
By Leviathan.Sidra 2017-07-15 19:52:43
He explained it on the other page and thus doesn't seem bugged.
The occasional extremely high damage occurs when TA or QA occurs- the damage of the non-elemental strikes are summed and used as the base damage for the elemental hit. Kyte
Are you familiar with Summoners Flaming Crush? I occasionally hit 99k even outside of Astral Conduit. It works the same way except it's a 3 hit instead of 2. The magical damage is the third hit, and it's base damage of the third hit is based off of the combined damage of the first 2. So you build hybrid - you want the 2 hits do as much damage and if an OAT goes off even better, and then you use MAB which is a % bonus to amp up the damage of the last hit.
So when a Quad attack on Jinpu goes off, you have the magical 2nd Jinpu hit with a core/base damage of 5x the first hit, all of which is then multiplied by any MAB (and the magic damage from Aeonic weapon may be in there as well...not sure).
Skyhigh numbers because of 2 levels multiplicative buffs whereas physical and magical attacks only have one.
I was totally unaware that Jinpu or any other weaponskills worked like that, I thought it was unique to Flaming Crush. If there were people out there who did know this, I am surprised this remained under wraps for so long.
 Sylph.Traxus
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 383
By Sylph.Traxus 2017-07-15 20:16:40
something something salvage bees
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Leviathan.Vedder
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 306
By Leviathan.Vedder 2017-07-15 20:17:20
>So when a Quad attack on Jinpu goes off, you have the magical 2nd Jinpu hit with a core/base damage of 5x the first hit, all of which is then multiplied by any MAB (and the magic damage from Aeonic weapon may be in there as well...not sure).<
That's what understood as well I was just trying to see the formula /sometimes i need things explained a little more clearly like with your example where the physical hits are multiplied by the magic one and the statistics that affect that.
Thx sid/kyte
Edit: yes I know sometimes I don't get it first go round but having you both explain it plus having a chance to look st the formula
(Damage = Base Damage × pDIF + Base Damage × pDIF × modifiers of magic damage)helps so I am appreciative.
Leviathan.Sidra
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 334
By Leviathan.Sidra 2017-07-15 20:25:37
Of possible note - Flaming Crush is great on weak stuff, and not so good on the really hard stuff - since you need so much Acc/Att to make the physical hits count, and MAB/MDF start out less than one, so it'll shrink damage until hyper buffed. This may not result in the HELM ownage people are thinking it will, for the same reasons SMN use Volt Stike on HELM and Flaming Crush to 1 shot trash or for massive numbers on low tier NMs.
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By Ruaumoko 2017-07-15 20:58:42
Saevel and I just finished a good hour's worth of testing on Jinpu. We suspect that, somehow, the WSD is being applied twice; once on the first hit and then again on the magic component of it. We'd like someone to do some even thorough testing to confirm or debunk this, if it's even possible.
A few more observations.
Sets with a mixture of STR, WSD and MaB are the way to go here. We did exhaustive testing with pure STR and WSD versus MaB and the results were consistently better with an amalgamation of both.
Fotia Belt and Gorget are returning some surprisingly good results.
Hachirin-no-Obi with Windstorm I (or better II) does affect Jinpu's damage. Recommend using it over Fotia Belt when you have the effect up.
Jinpu responds EXTREMELY WELL, like crazy well, to Fighter's Roll (Double Attack). If you have a Geomancer flooring the target's physical defense consider using Samurai/Fighters for your COR rolls. We went from seeing occasional 60-70k Jinpu to very frequent 60-70k Jinpu which, compared against the 35-40k low-end clearly indicated a Double Attack proc. 99999 Jinpu was clearly a Quad. Attack proc from Niqmaddu Ring since Saevel's set didn't have Triple Attack in it.
On that note, can someone with an AG Koga do a side-by-side comparison? TP Bonus from the Dojikiri might put it on equal footing but AM3 on Koga could... could tip the scales in its favor.
Stacking Malaise and Frailty does evil ***to Jinpu. It's very similar to Flaming Crush in that regard.
Asura.Saevel
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9933
By Asura.Saevel 2017-07-15 21:10:50
I would like confirmation but I'm thinking WSD is being applied in multiple places, once to the first physical hit and again to the final magic hit. Going from no cape to STR 30 WSD 10 was an increase far bigger then it should of been, also seen similar response to fotia stuff. And yea add Multi-Attack, multi-attack procs exponentially increase damage, especially how WSD is done at the end.
[+]
Leviathan.Vedder
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 306
By Leviathan.Vedder 2017-07-15 21:12:27
Its funny, whenever I read your posts I hear your voice and dialect now raumoko lol
Leviathan.Nitenichi
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 383
By Leviathan.Nitenichi 2017-07-15 21:24:14
Saevel and I just finished a good hour's worth of testing on Jinpu. We suspect that, somehow, the WSD is being applied twice; once on the first hit and then again on the magic component of it. We'd like someone to do some even thorough testing to confirm or debunk this, if it's even possible.
A few more observations.
Sets with a mixture of STR, WSD and MaB are the way to go here. We did exhaustive testing with pure STR and WSD versus MaB and the results were consistently better with an amalgamation of both.
Fotia Belt and Gorget are returning some surprisingly good results.
Hachirin-no-Obi with Windstorm I (or better II) does affect Jinpu's damage. Recommend using it over Fotia Belt when you have the effect up.
Jinpu responds EXTREMELY WELL, like crazy well, to Fighter's Roll (Double Attack). If you have a Geomancer flooring the target's physical defense consider using Samurai/Fighters for your COR rolls. We went from seeing occasional 60-70k Jinpu to very frequent 60-70k Jinpu which, compared against the 35-40k low-end clearly indicated a Double Attack proc. 99999 Jinpu was clearly a Quad. Attack proc from Niqmaddu Ring since Saevel's set didn't have Triple Attack in it.
On that note, can someone with an AG Koga do a side-by-side comparison? TP Bonus from the Dojikiri might put it on equal footing but AM3 on Koga could... could tip the scales in its favor.
Stacking Malaise and Frailty does evil ***to Jinpu. It's very similar to Flaming Crush in that regard.
What mobs/nm's we talking for this testing?
Asura.Saevel
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9933
By Asura.Saevel 2017-07-15 21:26:22
Leviathan.Nitenichi said: »What mobs/nm's we talking for this testing?
Apex Pugils and Frogs in Woh Gates. We wanted a place that was quick to get to with our mules, and had high enough levels to actually be relevant. When we get more time we'd like to test in Inner Raz to see how it's effected on high level mobs with higher magic evasion.
Leviathan.Nitenichi
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 383
By Leviathan.Nitenichi 2017-07-15 21:29:36
That's typically where I go to test. Hard dragging people there cause it's a hike.
Leviathan.Vedder
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 306
By Leviathan.Vedder 2017-07-15 21:34:04
ItemSet 352356
So this is kinda what you're using is imagine (ring maybe not since mission reward)?
Leviathan.Nitenichi
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 383
By Leviathan.Nitenichi 2017-07-15 21:48:32
ItemSet 352356
So this is kinda what you're using is imagine (ring maybe not since mission reward)?
Yes but regal ring and fotia on both.
Leviathan.Vedder
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 306
By Leviathan.Vedder 2017-07-15 21:54:49
Oh I was going off rau's post about the belt but yea was thinking regal might be the alternative
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