Bushido - The Way Of The Samurai (A Guide) V. 2.0

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2010-06-21
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Bushido - The Way of The Samurai (A Guide) V. 2.0
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 Cerberus.Reiden
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By Cerberus.Reiden 2014-01-27 23:33:26  
i do delve alot. i could parse a run using ageha only
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-01-27 23:35:18  
No evidence has ever been compiled to suggest that BLU additional effects are absolutely affected by MND or INT (outside of potency). Also, those are still broken as well are most weaponskills, so if Ageha works then it's definitely an exception to the rule. Onslaught, for example, still doesn't work.

Actually pretty surprised that Shell Crusher works, it's actually extremely useful. It's the most efficient Defense Down in the game due to the fact that it's - 25% with a massive potential duration (up to 9 minutes).
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-01-27 23:45:10  
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
No evidence has ever been compiled to suggest that BLU additional effects are absolutely affected by MND or INT (outside of potency). Also, those are still broken as well are most weaponskills, so if Ageha works then it's definitely an exception to the rule. Onslaught, for example, still doesn't work.

Actually pretty surprised that Shell Crusher works, it's actually extremely useful. It's the most efficient Defense Down in the game due to the fact that it's - 25% with a massive potential duration (up to 9 minutes).

Added effects on BLU spells and WS should still be effected by Macc even if they're basically auto-floored, right? I wouldn't be enough to make them actually work. I have always geared stuff like headbutt or stun WS with acc and macc, though maybe its just a placebo.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-01-28 00:03:00  
Standard magic accuracy? Of course. Magic accuracy from blue magic skill, too. However, MND and INT having an impact on them in any capacity is largely unknown, data available suggests that they have no impact. Potency wise, I'm unsure one way or the other. However, there's more evidence to suggest that. Magic accuracy from iLvl weapons has caused some confusion in terms of BLU spell accuracy; namely, it's enough to simulate that they "work", when in reality they're still quite inaccurate on anything that actually matters. Try to land Tourbillion on a delve boss or AA, for example.

For weaponskills, magic accuracy should theoretically affect landrates, however weapon skill+ makes the largest impact, and that's probably where these landing Agehas are coming from. I'd be interested to see the land rates on things that aren't such a low level.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-01-28 00:04:30  
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Standard magic accuracy? Of course. Magic accuracy from other spells too. However, MND and INT having an impact on them in any capacity is largely unknown, data available suggests that they have no impact. Potency wise, I'm unsure one way or the other. However, there's more evidence to suggest that.

For weaponskills, magic accuracy should theoretically affect landrates, however weapon skill+ makes the largest impact, and that's probably where these landing Agehas are coming from. I'd be interested to see the land rates on things that aren't such a low level.

Weaponskill+ meaning what exactly? Weaponskill accuracy like Caudata Belt?
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-01-28 00:06:10  
no, weapon skill, as in skill for the weapon. in this case, great katana skill.

magic accuracy is one of the least understood, most enigmatic stats left. we're getting so much of everything now, though, that it makes it a little easier to notice changes in land rates from x stat for y action. problem is it's such a monotonous task to test.
[+]
 Remora.Brain
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By Remora.Brain 2014-01-28 07:19:23  
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=251&mid=1255451428197923912&num=13&page=1

That's a link to a test were different jobs with /BLU were used to test stun acc of headbutt.

Jobs with higher INT all had higher stun proc rates.

The sample sizes were all small but the differences were blatantly obvious.
 Sylph.Safiyyah
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By Sylph.Safiyyah 2014-01-28 15:55:14  
Let me try to contribute a couple of sets for polearm, which is kinda relevant again.

Polearm TP:

ItemSet 319108

Stardiver:

ItemSet 319109
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-01-28 16:02:24  
A single, arguably inconclusive, test on a single spell really isn't enough to solidify that all additional effects are affected by INT, MND, or CHR let alone which ones are affected by which stat. Defense Down, Evasion Down, Attack Down, Stat down in particular are completely unknown in terms of any sort of INT, MND, or otherwise modifier. It's also likely that it varies from effect to effect, ergo it won't be one particular stat for any one debuff.
 Cerberus.Reiden
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By Cerberus.Reiden 2014-01-28 18:37:41  
Sylph.Safiyyah said: »
Let me try to contribute a couple of sets for polearm, which is kinda relevant again.

Polearm TP:

ItemSet 319108

Stardiver:

ItemSet 319109


Is that with buffs?
 Bismarck.Llewelyn
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By Bismarck.Llewelyn 2014-01-28 18:43:19  
Sylph.Safiyyah said: »
Let me try to contribute a couple of sets for polearm, which is kinda relevant again.
You'll want to use Brutal/Moonshade for Stardiver. Wakido Domaru +1 and Windbuffet could be a possible swap in your TP set, however you'd need Stardiver to land 4 hits as opposed to only needing 3 in the current set.
 Ragnarok.Masamonae
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By Ragnarok.Masamonae 2014-01-28 19:17:30  
Just a word of advice (cuz my friend honestly has no idea how it works), Koga is a defensive stance weapon for its best results... Pumping Hasso all the time does NOT bring out the best of that weapon. (Also just an FYI, I haven't actually read this thread, enjoy my unhindered wisdom!)
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-01-28 19:22:34  
As a defensive weapon, Koga is 2nd to none, as an offensive weapon, Koga is always near the top and pulls far ahead depending on situations. If used correctly, 119 Koga will top the competition by a good margin in every respect.
 Remora.Brain
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By Remora.Brain 2014-01-28 19:58:36  
Arguably inconclusive? I would say that while it was a small sample size it was clearly sufficient to show a relation between stun proc and INT values, especially when later discoveries that lead to our current understanding of dSTAT and MACC would fit the numbers almost perfectly.

Anecdotally, an evil word to be sure, people have seen better proc rates on Binds, Slow, Para, Sleep, etc added effects through manipulation of the particular debuff's usual dSTAT. This I will agree has insufficient testing.

I do admit I was quick to make my claim and too vague in the details. The question is does the MACC value for DEF Down have a dSTAT value. There are certainly magics that don't have a dSTAT, or a dSTAT that we are aware of, Ninjutsu and Breath magics come to mind, but there are also magics many swore up and down weren't affected by dSTAT (Drains) and we currently know they are.

This could be tested with Frightful Roar and would probably be worthwhile to see if SAM could manipulate stats to try and raise/cap the land rate of Ageha's Defense Down on higher level content, such as AAs.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-01-28 20:07:32  
Would be best to test Ageha itself since, as I said, there's no guarantee that y stat will affect x debuff uniformly.

Things that we know affect WS additional effects are straight up magic accuracy, and skill with a weapon. The skill from the weapon bit is what I surmise is broken, i.e. you get the magic accuracy from actual macc and (possibly) INT/MND/whatever but not from skill, and so the recent massive infusion of magic accuracy from iLvl weapons and gear is what has caused things to start working on lower (higher than before) level things; note that Ageha, Shell Crusher, and BLU spells working on mobs immediately outside of Adoulin coincides with the magic accuracy from iLvl weapon skill adjustment. The magic accuracy you get from mainhanding an iLvl weapon exceeds all other slots with maximum available macc per slot combined, so it's a massive increase.

When I tested BLU add. effect accuracy on mobs in sky, I was able to land things somewhat regularly with Buramenk'ah equipped, but not with Isador equipped. This tells me that the magic accuracy that I should be getting from Blue Magic Skill is not being accounted for, but the large chunk of magic accuracy that I'm getting from my sword is. This was not always the case; skill used to affect blue magic add. effects in terms land rate.

Due to the fact that magic accuracy:magic evasion works in such small quantities, it isn't difficult to believe that the skill macc on iLvl weapons is causing us to be able to land things on a more varied range of targets, however this won't help on things with high magic evasion since iLvl weapons are the only way to get reasonably large chunks of macc for most jobs.

Therefor, my theory is that things are still not fixed, however the large amount of macc that we have on weapons is causing the illusion that things have been sorted out. We're still missing a large chunk of macc that we should be getting from skill which should be making our spells and weaponskills effective on almost everything.
 Remora.Brain
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By Remora.Brain 2014-01-28 20:33:44  
Also, How does Amano/Yoichi compare to Koga on piercing neutral mobs with strong ACC/ATK buffs?

I figured Amano/Yoichi would still be better due to not as much TP overflow, less of this WS saturation I hear about lately, a stronger WS, getting ODD procs without a need for AM, and not having to waste TP on Rana.

I would love for Koga to pull ahead situationally because I was thinking of just picking one up.
 Cerberus.Reiden
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By Cerberus.Reiden 2014-01-28 20:47:28  
According to Fthis, "Koga/yoichi sucks, unless you want to spam apex arrow. Stick to amano/yoichi."
 Sylph.Safiyyah
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By Sylph.Safiyyah 2014-01-28 21:24:21  
Bismarck.Llewelyn said: »
Sylph.Safiyyah said: »
Let me try to contribute a couple of sets for polearm, which is kinda relevant again.
You'll want to use Brutal/Moonshade for Stardiver. Wakido Domaru +1 and Windbuffet could be a possible swap in your TP set, however you'd need Stardiver to land 4 hits as opposed to only needing 3 in the current set.

Sorry, fixed the earrings, that was unintentional.

Wakido +1 would be preferable for the extra defense, I think. It's funny now that defense matters again.
 Bismarck.Llewelyn
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By Bismarck.Llewelyn 2014-01-28 21:31:23  
Remora.Brain said: »
Also, How does Amano/Yoichi compare to Koga on piercing neutral mobs with strong ACC/ATK buffs?

I figured Amano/Yoichi would still be better due to not as much TP overflow, less of this WS saturation I hear about lately, a stronger WS, getting ODD procs without a need for AM, and not having to waste TP on Rana.

I would love for Koga to pull ahead situationally because I was thinking of just picking one up.
I believe the consensus is Koga if you are able to take full advantage of Overwhelm, otherwise Yoichi.
 Phoenix.Dramatica
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2014-01-28 21:49:28  
Low atk situations heavily favor koga too. Also wat at seigan, losing 12.5% haste for an increase in counter rate with TE up, yeah no. I've used seigan like a total of 5 times since getting koga, and if you have to keep seigan up you're likely on the wrong job.
[+]
 Carbuncle.Xenhas
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By Carbuncle.Xenhas 2014-01-28 22:56:54  
Ok, so Tachi: Ageha without an iLvl GK still has the same horrendously "broken" m.acc as it has for a while.

Targets were incredibly easy prey Ypotryll in aby-konschtat
no atmas or stat buffs, or temps were used

lvl 99 amano (no ilvl)

iLvl 119 koga

I'll check on some VD TT or something in a bit for land rate on higher targets with iLvl weapons. Should be easy to survive and run away and do these tests while 2boxxing.
 Cerberus.Fthis
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By Cerberus.Fthis 2014-01-29 23:32:56  
Don't crucify me for this.

I own both Duplus and Bloodrain grips, why are so many people using Bloodrain Grip (and 450 delay GK's) when can use Duplus and continue on with your 5 hit?

Constructive replies appreciated!
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-01-29 23:41:01  
Cerberus.Fthis said: »
Don't crucify me for this.

I own both Duplus and Bloodrain grips, why are so many people using Bloodrain Grip (and 450 delay GK's) when can use Duplus and continue on with your 5 hit?

Constructive replies appreciated!

The same reason people are wearing skirmish hands/legs and wakido kabuto +1... they're idiots.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-01-29 23:49:37  
Yeah. Real men wear Lentus Grip
 Bismarck.Llewelyn
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By Bismarck.Llewelyn 2014-01-29 23:51:50  
Are you talking about Kogarasumaru or 450 Delay GKs in general? I don't notice people using it for anything other than Koga (though I never randomly use the /check function unless browsing bazaars) and that's because AM3 highly devalues double attack and the ~3-4 TP bonus from overflow will increase your damage more than the Duplus, however this only applies to if Fudo is your main weapon skill of choice. If your target requires the use of Shoha, then Duplus would be slightly better. Of course, you can't change grips so you'll have to plan ahead on which would be preferable.

But yeah, not even 437 Delay GKs have any business using a Bloodrain.
 Cerberus.Fthis
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By Cerberus.Fthis 2014-01-29 23:52:52  
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Yeah. Real men wear Lentus Grip

CONSTRUCTIVE REPLIES APPRECIATED!!!!!

hah, nah, but yeah, it's a good grip but i was just wondering...
 Cerberus.Fthis
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By Cerberus.Fthis 2014-01-29 23:56:06  
Bismarck.Llewelyn said: »
Are you talking about Kogarasumaru or 450 Delay GKs in general? I don't notice people using it for anything other than Koga (though I never randomly use the /check function unless browsing bazaars) and that's because AM3 highly devalues double attack and the ~3-4 TP bonus from overflow will increase your damage more than the Duplus, however this only applies to if Fudo is your main weapon skill of choice. If your target requires the use of Shoha, then Duplus would be slightly better. Of course, you can't change grips so you'll have to plan ahead on which would be preferable.

talking about koga mainly.

yeah i mainly use Shoha, and use Duplus still for the 2nd hit of my weapon skill. i can't find a good piece of gear to sacrifice to make the bloodrain grip worthwhile to use for a better attribute in another slot.
 Bismarck.Llewelyn
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By Bismarck.Llewelyn 2014-01-29 23:59:37  
Cerberus.Fthis said: »
i can't find a good piece of gear to sacrifice to make the bloodrain grip worthwhile to use for a better attribute in another slot.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you trying to shoot for a perfect 100% TP x-hit? There's nothing wrong with over-stacking on STP. The overflow acts like a small TP bonus to your WSs.
 Cerberus.Fthis
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By Cerberus.Fthis 2014-01-30 00:02:42  
the aftermath 3 occasionally attacks twice/thrice only applies to the first hit of the ws, i mainly use duplus for extra chance at double attacking on the 2nd hit of shoha. that's just me, but i do notice alot of people using bloodrain grip over duplus (with koga). you'd only get probably a few extra TP for the next ws. was just wondering if it is worth it for that extra damage to the ws's cause yea i know that shoha's damage does vary with the TP you have.
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