[dev1151] Job Adjustments: Rune Fencer
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2010-06-21
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[dev1151] Job Adjustments: Rune Fencer
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 Bismarck.Ariyon
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By Bismarck.Ariyon 2013-06-14 19:37:43
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Cerberus.Anjisnu said: »
pil kaustra'd the *** outta my blu many times and seeing as i had no whm in my pt i was basically left for dead on the plus side after i died the wars and drks were able to finally have hate
People still do Pil? (This is a serious question. Kinda sucks VW is so dead, I never got half the stuff I needed.)
 Lyncath
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By Lyncath 2013-06-14 20:36:34
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Not sure if this is intentional or not but the merits that go into Rune Enhancement effect are also lowering the recast timers for the ability.

x5 merits means that you have literally no waiting time between putting runes up, something must be broken here.

If not then this is fantastic, runes generate a fair bit of hate and if a RUN can spam them then all the better.
 Enuyasha
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By Enuyasha 2013-06-14 20:38:27
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Bismarck.Ariyon said: »
Cerberus.Anjisnu said: »
pil kaustra'd the *** outta my blu many times and seeing as i had no whm in my pt i was basically left for dead on the plus side after i died the wars and drks were able to finally have hate
People still do Pil? (This is a serious question. Kinda sucks VW is so dead, I never got half the stuff I needed.)
I think only the Pil in Provenance does Kaustra. :< as far as jueno III Pil, i see shouts all the time for it on Carbuncle.

Also, Odin II can do Kaustra at some point...and Tojil(i think you mentioned Tojil already,derp) :<
 Odin.Creaucent
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By Odin.Creaucent 2013-06-14 21:13:18
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Enuyasha said: »
Bismarck.Ariyon said: »
Cerberus.Anjisnu said: »
pil kaustra'd the *** outta my blu many times and seeing as i had no whm in my pt i was basically left for dead on the plus side after i died the wars and drks were able to finally have hate
People still do Pil? (This is a serious question. Kinda sucks VW is so dead, I never got half the stuff I needed.)
I think only the Pil in Provenance does Kaustra. :< as far as jueno III Pil, i see shouts all the time for it on Carbuncle.

Also, Odin II can do Kaustra at some point...and Tojil(i think you mentioned Tojil already,derp) :<

No the T3 Pil uses Kaustra.
 darthmaull
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By darthmaull 2013-06-14 22:25:15
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For me, the merits are ok. If we get some good Artifact armor that helps boost some of these merits then I can see RUN becoming more useful.

First off I personally think /nin may become more useful if Inspiration gives Fast Cast to all casting and recasts. Shadows will go up faster and you have an extra way to dodge damage that is not mp dependent. I plan to go 5/5 Inspiration. My next choice in group 2 is going to depend on what people say the potency of Rayke is like. If it is possible to land a /nin enfeeble on an NM then ill put one merit into this. If on merit is not enough then ill just scrap anything going into this and just go 5/5 Battuta.

Group 1 for me is very easy. 5/5 Rune Enhancement and Vallation Effect. Vallation will help me because I like to keep up multiple runes anyways for mobs that cast more then one elemental magic type.

Ill have to test this when the update comes but Flash, Foil, Stoneskin, Phalanx, Ice Spikes, Shadows 1 and 2, Battuta, and reduced recast timers due to 5/5 Inspiration, it should be pretty hard for a mob to hit RUN. If this works I should also be able to keep my DA/TA/QA gear equipped and gain tp faster. I use the -pdt swords instead of a GS right now and I actually like it more. I'm still in the process of skilling up but I am actually looking forward to these new merits to see if I can do anything differently to be more useful in group play.
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-06-15 03:57:56
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Someone did testing and

Quote:
Rune Enchantment Effect doesn't effect Lunge or Gambit potency just raises resistances by 2 per merit. It also lowers recast on runes by 2 sec per merit too. At 5/5 runes have no recast besides JA delay
it's awesome.

edit: derp, already mentioned above.
 
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 Bismarck.Zuidar
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By Bismarck.Zuidar 2013-06-15 04:10:12
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Really loving the 0 recast for rune enchantment :p can really get all my runes up real quick at will. Inspiration really does it really well, did 5/5 merits, I tried /nin and combined with 27% haste in gear, got utsusemi ichi recast to 16 seconds and Ni to 25 seconds. Foil recast was down to 26 seconds. I forgot to try flash to get the recast. At least with Inspiration, you'd can keep up phalanx and aquaveil easily. I'd like to see even more results of recast when you have spell haste and marches together

Battuta's Parry spikes is kinda cool though, having increased parry rate is a plus. However I tried it on T3 Leviathan in Aby ule and with Sulpor x3 I think it would be Water Parry spikes (?) and it actually healed it.
 Puppetmaster
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By Puppetmaster 2013-06-15 20:42:12
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Bismarck.Ariyon said: »
Puppetmaster said: »
Charm is light-based, so you can resist it with light resistance runes, barlight would help with that if it existed
Does the Meteor NMs use have an element? (People used to think it was either light or dark, but it might be non-elemental like the player version)
Kaustra is dark nuke, as is Comet
Things like Cait Sith's astral flow, Alexander's astral flow (in the fight against him), Some of Ultima's moves, etc. etc. are all light-based as well. So it wouldn't be useless, if anything the reason they haven't added barlight/bardark is because SE thinks it would be overpowered and they need their "balance" lol
Outside of chariots, some poroggo NMs, and certain dynamis NMs, how many mobs are even capable of charming that people fight on a regular basis?
Meteor is non-elemental, so that one's moot. Kaustra I could maybe see, but I think the only things I've ever seen cast it are Paramount Botulus and the Jagil NM in Fractures. (I'm sure there's a few more, they're just the only ones I've seen.) And I don't know that I've ever seen anything use Comet...
Cait Sith is a pretty weak example. You fight him what, once? (I never did the WotG storyline) Alexander is also pretty flimsy unless you're someone who likes to spam him for the lulz, but he's not particularly threatening anyways.
The argument of "balance" and "overpowering" is also lame because you could argue the same thing about the rest of the bar- spells, and they see far more use than barlight/dark ever would.

I didn't say I thought it was overpowered or needed to be "balanced", which is why I put the "balance" in quotes, it's SE's trademark backwards logic.
"Trying to Resist Death or Charm, are you?!? Why, I never!"
Barlight and Bardark would be useful for the aforementioned scenarios (death, charm, kaustra, etc) Would it be broken or overpowered? No. Situational, just like every other barspell
 Enuyasha
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By Enuyasha 2013-06-15 20:45:37
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The reason they never gave us Barlight/dark,amnesra,terrora,and deweak was because they never wanted us to be completely immune to enfeebling or be able to just shrug off anything a mob does. However, RUN is the only job that can completely resist any enfeeble if they really wanted to :<
 Kalila
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By Kalila 2013-06-17 17:44:19
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06-17-2013 11:37 AM
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Mocchi: About Rune Fencer

From the list of problems with Rune Fencer playing an active part as a tank, the first thing that comes to mind is physical attacks. As of right now, its ability to counter against physical attacks is too low. Even if you eliminate this problem to some extent, many paladins have Aegis or Ochain, and because of their existence, its very difficult to expect another job to play the role of a tank in the same way. I think monk would be more qualified as a tank.

Thanks for your feedback.

  1. Ability to counter against physical attacks

    This will not be unique to rune fencer, but we plan to add equipment which reduces the amount of physical damage taken for all jobs.

    As you have said, the ability to counter against physical attacks is best done by Paladin, and this superiority is intentional.

    Rune fencers were not intended to be strong against physical attacks, so there are no plans to make additional adjustments specific to rune fencer to allow them to excel at this as much as Paladins.

  2. Comparison against Paladin with Aegis/Ochain
    We have previously discussed this in interviews and on the forums. If you compare on terms of magic defense alone, there is an advantage for Paladins with Aegis as it can evenly reduce the damage taken of all elements. However, rune fencer excels at reducing not only the damage taken from specific elements, but can also frequently resist abnormal status effects.

    Additionally, while Aegis applies only to the Paladin itself, Rune fencer can also cut elemental damage taken by party members within the area of effect, so in this respect, the contribution to reducing overall damage taken by the party can be higher than that of an Aegis Paladin.

    Also, from a more fundamental sense, it's spurious to compare an Ochain or Aegis Paladin to Rune Fencer in its current state. Once job-specific equipment corresponding to mythic and relic has been added for Rune Fencer, we can reassess whether the balance is appropriate and make any additional needed changes at that time.

  3. Regarding the performance of Rune Fencer
    In some respects, it is difficult actively fighting and tanking at the same time, and we do understand this.

    With the addition of the merit points previously discussed as well as artifact armor, we believe that it will help improve the simultaneous fighting and tanking ability of rune fencer.

    Since these will be the only adjustments at this time, we do not expect it to immediately be at its strongest level, but we will continue to make any adjustments necessary to improve the playability of Rune Fencer.


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06-17-2013 02:09 PM
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Camate
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Greetings,

  1. Physical damage mitigation
    Moving forward we plan on adding more equipment that reduces physical damage taken for all jobs, not only rune fencer.

    The fact that paladin is the job that is most apt to deal with physical damage will not change; however, our goal is to bring other jobs closer to where paladin is currently.

    Rune fencers are not supposed to be strong defenders against physical damage, and as such we have no plans to add stats that will make them like a paladin.

  2. Comparisons to paladins with Aegis/Ochain
    When comparing magic defense between the current rune fencer and equipment to a paladin that is completely decked out, a paladin with Aegis will be better at reducing the magic damage of all elements. However, since rune fencer excels at elemental defense, they are also extremely strong towards status ailments in addition to elemental damage.

    Also, the effects of Aegis only apply toward the paladin, while rune fencers are able to spread the elemental damage reduction effect to party members making them extremely beneficial in party situations. When adding job-specific equipment to rune fencer moving forward, we will be paying careful attention to the balance between them and Aegis/Ochain and be making necessary adjustments.

  3. Rune fencer stats
    We understand that there are aspects that make it difficult for rune fencer to act as a tank and players often see them as being in a support role instead.

    With the addition of the rune fencer merit point category as well as artifact equipment, we plan on making adjustments to make it more possible for rune fencers to tank and shine even more on the support front.

    These are not the only adjustments that will be made, so rest assured that we will continue to adjust this job.

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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-06-17 17:46:24
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Dreadful.
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 Kalila
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By Kalila 2013-06-17 17:55:39
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06-17-2013 04:14 PM
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Mocchi: Follow-up Frenzy

Rune Fencer

I'm not particularly familiar with Paladin, but doesn't the effect of Iron Will together with Rampart also apply to party members?

Am I misunderstanding this?

Yeah, I'm very sorry about that. The effect of Iron Will does extend to party members.

[[I think they're talking about the Inspiration trait here, but I don't see it mentioned directly.]]

For Valiance, while the adjustment may be difficult, we would like to work out the effect so that it can be granted to party members as well.



Mocchi and everyone else, thanks for your good work over the holiday.

A while back, the development team talked about giving more meaning to defense, along with improving the defense of individual pieces of equipment to reduce damage taken further. If you're planning to continue adding equipment which directly cuts damage taken, are you still considering adjustments to the enemy attack/defense ratio and the mechanism for how defense reduces damage taken?

Eventually, we do plan to implement an adjustment which allows defense to be utilized better to cut damage taken; however, this may take a considerable amount of time to develop.

Since there are a lot of higher level monsters being added, and new content still to be implemented, while we work to balance the defense mechanism, we want to prioritize bridging the gap temporarily by adding equipment with which all jobs can cut damage taken.

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 Sylph.Traxus
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By Sylph.Traxus 2013-06-17 18:01:42
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Quote:
Rune fencers were not intended to be strong against physical attacks,

lol... So where are those bosses that exclusively deal (one type of) elemental damage where a rune fencer 'tank' would be viable?
 Phoenix.Thorbean
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2013-07-08 19:21:08
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Battuta is unbelievable. O.O Hopefully relic +2 aug increases duration 6 sec/merit. 90 sec duration is a bit too short IMO.
 Tymoris
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By Tymoris 2013-07-08 19:27:43
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Problem is they still haven't figured out where a RUN could actually be used.

Somehow I doubt players will adjust the tactics of 17 other people so a RUN will be situationally useful.
 Phoenix.Thorbean
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2013-07-09 14:59:42
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Dev 1: RUN's seem to be saying they are bleeding emnity due to taking too much physical damage from regular attack rounds when they have hate.

Dev 2: lets give them a new cape to help with that.

Evasionist's Cape
DEF:16 Accuracy+15 "Magic Atk. Bonus"+10
Evasion+15 Physical damage taken -3%

Thanks?
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 Kariana
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By Kariana 2013-07-10 07:50:41
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Anyone else angry about the piss poor ability for SE to make sure we understood that the recast timers reduction wasn't intentional? gah!
 Enuyasha
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By Enuyasha 2013-07-10 08:01:07
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I so hope they are planning on adding extra spells and whatnot like they did with other jobs...cause just making RUN tank like a NIN and PLD crossbreed isnt going to make the playerbase do as intended more. Although, i do appreciate the only high MAB back peice that we can get...since RUN cant use twilight cape...
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-07-10 08:01:44
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It's like the test server doesn't exist, it's been there for a while and they ported it to real servers...

They should put it back in though, it actually made run much more capable of doing its job - changing elements quickly, using gambit efficiently and gaining more enmity.
 Enuyasha
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By Enuyasha 2013-07-10 08:16:30
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
It's like the test server doesn't exist, it's been there for a while and they ported it to real servers...

They should put it back in though, it actually made run much more capable of doing its job - changing elements quickly, using gambit efficiently and gaining more enmity.
At least we get more out of the stat conversions with the update. With all the new +30~ pieces i dont see the attack/accuracy deficiencies being a problem much longer for Resolution hate grabbing.
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By Bahamut.Jaggerjack 2013-07-10 08:20:10
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Square enix ur full of *** bull ***now ur talking about making a relic for a *** rune-fencer sort out the old relic weapon problems then try to add a new *** relic re adjust the jobs before adoulin if you dont want people to whine on rune fencer abillities for *** sake
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-07-10 08:21:29
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Enuyasha said: »
At least we get more out of the stat conversions with the update
? That's only for 1handed and ranged. Shouldn't use axes on anything important anyway.
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2013-07-10 08:29:08
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Bahamut.Jaggerjack said: »
Square enix ur full of *** bull ***now ur talking about making a relic for a *** rune-fencer sort out the old relic weapon problems then try to add a new *** relic re adjust the jobs before adoulin if you dont want people to whine on rune fencer abillities for *** sake

 Enuyasha
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By Enuyasha 2013-07-10 08:32:28
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Enuyasha said: »
At least we get more out of the stat conversions with the update
? That's only for 1handed and ranged. Shouldn't use axes on anything important anyway.
Derped. :<

Bahamut.Jaggerjack said: »
Square enix ur full of *** bull ***now you're talking about making a relic for a *** rune fencer sort out the old relic weapon problems then try to add a new *** relic re adjust the jobs before Adoulin if you dont want people to whine on rune fencer abilities for *** sake
Im sure the "Mythic" for RUN and GEO wont come out until after Delve is done..probably will come out at the same time as the REM adjustment which will most likely scale to the complete delve item stats/levels. Also: the jobs are "Fixed" sort of...just not the awesome 9000 damage Reso and 15000 damage Lunge flinging DDs that most people want. What they need is various add ons like the other jobs got after level 90 or so. 5 runes, other abilities between the vast wasteland of nothing at certain levels, etc. GEO is getting Indi-Haste,Regain,and more and i wouldnt expect nothing to come for RUN when those get added. Chill,be patient.
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2013-07-10 08:32:45
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Inspiration, even with Hasso/Seigan up, still provides a decent cast speed increase rather than evening out :), recasts still suffer a ~10% recast increase.

Cast Time:
Naked cast (Blink):
Interrupted at ~70%

Naked cast (Blink)(Valiance only):
Interrupted at ~35%

Naked cast (Blink) (Hasso + Valiance):
Interrupted at ~52%
=========================

Recast:
Naked cast (Foil):
45 second recast.

Naked cast (Foil)(Valiance only):
33 second recast.

Naked cast (Foil)(Hasso + Valiance):
49 second recast.


Sooooo hasso/seigan add 50% to the fast cast adjusted time?
 Asura.Solara
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By Asura.Solara 2013-07-10 08:40:20
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Enuyasha said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
It's like the test server doesn't exist, it's been there for a while and they ported it to real servers...

They should put it back in though, it actually made run much more capable of doing its job - changing elements quickly, using gambit efficiently and gaining more enmity.
At least we get more out of the stat conversions with the update. With all the new +30~ pieces i dont see the attack/accuracy deficiencies being a problem much longer for Resolution hate grabbing.

The stat conversion they added for 1hnd/ranged jobs has existed for 2hnd jobs since ToAU.

A Run is not going to be using Resolution to hold hate against dds even with a world of acc/atk added, they have far too much spell/ja delay and lose too much enmity to physical damage. If a Run is tanking, they'll be doing it through abilities/spells, the damage is just a bonus.
 Enuyasha
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By Enuyasha 2013-07-10 08:41:42
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Phoenix.Thorbean said: »
Inspiration, even with Hasso/Seigan up, still provides a decent cast speed increase rather than evening out :), recasts still suffer a ~10% recast increase.

Cast Time:
Naked cast (Blink):
Interrupted at ~70%

Naked cast (Blink)(Valiance only):
Interrupted at ~35%

Naked cast (Blink) (Hasso + Valiance):
Interrupted at ~52%
=========================

Recast:
Naked cast (Foil):
45 second recast.

Naked cast (Foil)(Valiance only):
33 second recast.

Naked cast (Foil)(Hasso + Valiance):
49 second recast.


Sooooo hasso/seigan add 50% to the fast cast adjusted time?
Hasso is the one that adds the recast+ :< Seigan just doesnt have offensive buffs. I wonder if the 50% from the trait stacks with the FC cap...that would be something amazing if it did...

Asura.Solara said: »
Enuyasha said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
It's like the test server doesn't exist, it's been there for a while and they ported it to real servers...

They should put it back in though, it actually made run much more capable of doing its job - changing elements quickly, using gambit efficiently and gaining more enmity.
At least we get more out of the stat conversions with the update. With all the new +30~ pieces i dont see the attack/accuracy deficiencies being a problem much longer for Resolution hate grabbing.

The stat conversion they added for 1hnd/ranged jobs has existed for 2hnd jobs since ToAU.

A Run is not going to be using Resolution to hold hate against dds even with a world of acc/atk added, they have far too much spell/ja delay and lose too much enmity to physical damage. If a Run is tanking, they'll be doing it through abilities/spells, the damage is just a bonus.
You now have access to increased parrying and then the only thing left is to add hybrid DT- pieces and fix it so Evasion is actually more useful than it is now (There are actually alot of hybrid evasion pieces we can wear :<). The Abilities/spells give damage as well as hate. RUN is the crossbreed of VW DD tanking and NIN+PLD blood/spell spam tanking. The only real problem it seems to have is mitigation and they seem to be fixing that, but i highly doubt they are going to give it hybrid sets to the extent that HeavyDD's and PLD get without messing with other light DD jobs in the process.
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By Phoenix.Brixy 2013-07-10 08:47:04
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The fastcast from Valiance also affects your entire party, which is pretty awesome. Bet they end up taking that away from us also. We can't have rune fencer being useful.
 Enuyasha
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By Enuyasha 2013-07-10 08:54:21
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Phoenix.Brixy said: »
The fastcast from Valiance also affects your entire party, which is pretty awesome. Bet they end up taking that away from us also. We can't have rune fencer being useful.
They wont, then they'd have to take Iron Will from Rampart AoE :<
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