The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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2010-06-21
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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2024-12-18 02:43:34  
Hehe, yeah Sangarius seems like its day has passed.

But this one looks pretty obvious to me:
Barbarity's higher STR gives attack too, so basically cancels out the 13 skill advantage for Ikenga. So you're really just looking at Atk+25 advantage from Ikenga augments - and subtract some more from that if you aren't using a fully maxed out R30. Can't see that beating even STR+13 considering the decently strong STR mod on Deci (and additional fSTR), and the extra WSD is just gravy.

18 dmg from offhand (as opposed to main) is not hugely relevant.

So you're left with the accuracy as probably the most reasonable consideration, that might situationally favor Ikenga. Would be totally dependent on whether you need extra acc in your WS set though, and you probably don't in most practical scenarios these days where you're rocking a Doli?

I suspect it's more just a matter of everyone always forgets Barbarity +1 (Neo Juggernaut!) - it's niche for sure, but does still have some uses.
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-12-18 05:13:48  
I'm not a WAR so pardon ignorance here but...what are the circumstances under which you are choosing to do decimation spam as a WAR? Isn't it like...the third best axe ws? Is this some weird "if I need this specific SC property and can't use a sword, gs, or gaxe" kind of case or...what? Is it better for low buff situations or something?
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By Atrox78 2024-12-18 05:31:16  
I'm fairly sure that Decimation spam with the Ambuscade Axe is the most damage warrior can do with an axe, outside of maybe empy am 3 shenanigans (and this may surpass it?). Decimation dosent scale with tp and and can be spammed at 1k for pretty obscene amounts of damage. Pdl does wonders for it as well i assume.

I haven't used it in years. Probally pre oddy honestly but even back then it was doing a solid 50k per ws. As was mentioned a few post back, it can north of 80k now with pdl gear.
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-12-18 05:57:21  
Interesting to hear you say that because for Kalunga we had a WAR and tried many weapons. Axe ended up doing the best damage but they were alternating mistral and calamity and not touching decimation. Might've had something to do with ws wall or something but...I would also think WAR with fencer, tp bonus gear, and savagery would prefer WS that scale with TP over those that don't.

Might vary based on situation. FWIW I mostly play in highly buffed situations so spamming 50k ws would be embarrassing for a BRD, much less a WAR. I might just be experiencing different situations. I've played a lot of content with a ton of WARs and never had any of them talk about using decimation for maximizing their damage.

If it were 80k consistently at 1k that would be good but I'm very suspicious of that because again, nobody i know uses it...ever.
 Phoenix.Iocus
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By Phoenix.Iocus 2024-12-18 06:17:33  
It's really good if you are WAR or DRK dual wielding, but since there is no native dual wield among axe users and the current hardest endgame doesn't allow subjobs...

I haven't tried it on BST since I r30'd gleti's but it was clearly a step behind WAR and DRK with the absence of free DA or PDL.
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By Kaffy 2024-12-18 06:23:37  
Ran some sims and at 1k tp its fairly close evidently. WAR/Nosub with all the fixins (sv songs, crooked 11 rolls, bolster idris etc.)





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By Atrox78 2024-12-18 06:50:12  
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Interesting to hear you say that because for Kalunga we had a WAR and tried many weapons. Axe ended up doing the best damage but they were alternating mistral and calamity and not touching decimation. Might've had something to do with ws wall or something but...I would also think WAR with fencer, tp bonus gear, and savagery would prefer WS that scale with TP over those that don't.

Might vary based on situation. FWIW I mostly play in highly buffed situations so spamming 50k ws would be embarrassing for a BRD, much less a WAR. I might just be experiencing different situations. I've played a lot of content with a ton of WARs and never had any of them talk about using decimation for maximizing their damage.

If it were 80k consistently at 1k that would be good but I'm very suspicious of that because again, nobody i know uses it...ever.

Yea my 50k comment was pre oddy gear so I wouldn't use that number for anything. Having not touched it myself in years, I'd wager it would be great on low end game content (aeonic clears) but probably suffer in harder content like most multihit ws do nowadays (3 or more hits).
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-12-18 06:53:34  

Interesting results, thanks for taking the time to run it and to share. Glad to see it's the third best axe WS like I expected, though it is closer than I thought. I know for some of these fights they were also using Farsha for the extra white damage, which may/may not change the math there.

I'm not sure I would call 10-20% behind "fairly close" but it's closer than I thought.

One other note: I don't think 1k-1250 is the best range, considering all the DA/STP that the WAR would have, it's unlikely you'll always end up at/below 1250 TP, though maybe the sim accounts for this. It might also be more advantageous for the non-Deci WS to hold to 1500 or some other number.

This is also (I presume) not including Warcry, which would push Deci even further out of competition.
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By Kaffy 2024-12-18 06:56:52  
It was with warcry but not mighty strikes. I think the lack of offhand hit(s) on FTP carry decimation really hurts.

Oh I should run it with aria, don't have it so forget about it sometimes.
 Phoenix.Iocus
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By Phoenix.Iocus 2024-12-18 07:05:46  
You can also just run mistral and calamity with doli to see the actual problem. Or you can run decimation with the ikenga axe. There isn't a scenario where decimation is a good 1st or 2nd WS if you have ikenga axe with some or all tp bonus
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By Kaffy 2024-12-18 07:19:36  






last one is with aria, all I have time for atm. Don't decimation without Dolichenus lol!
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2024-12-18 08:37:25  
I think question was Decimation using /R30 Ikenga's Axe vs using /Barbarity. (What is the superior offhand)
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By Kaffy 2024-12-18 09:04:37  
Barbarity
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 Shiva.Myamoto
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By Shiva.Myamoto 2024-12-18 09:33:44  
Just from personal experience, the numbers from calamity/mistral sim posted earlier seem off. Is the actual tp value of 3k being used for sim? I don't know how it functions tbh but I am asking because I can easily hit 60K+ calamity with trust buffs... let alone fully loaded as posted above.

I get that my sub is drg59 in this case with the wsd+ but even if you had the 10% added to the "maximum" value posted in sim, I am still exceeding that with simply trust buffs... and we all know how much impact proper buffs actually have let alone soul voice/crooked 11's and bolster... so something seems very off to me.
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By Kaffy 2024-12-18 10:06:14  
No, was 1k to compare it to decimation spam. Warcry and fencer are counted just not displayed in the graph. Could very well be an error on how I set it up, however.
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By Taint 2024-12-18 10:18:34  
Farsha is king. It melts Kalunga v25 and thats probably the hardest axe mob most will ever do. With everything endgame having a WS wall jobs not using Naegling need some flexibility.
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2024-12-18 12:09:29  
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
I would also think WAR with fencer, tp bonus gear, and savagery would prefer WS that scale with TP over those that don't.

Yeah, I view Doli Decimation spam as more of a BST thing than WAR, due to BST lacking those WAR tools. On BST, it's the best axe physical damage approach.

Mistral just ends up feeling disappointing as hell on BST. Even with R15 Tri-Edge and a TP Bonus Fernagu offhand, I am never able to outperform spamming Decimation with the Ambu axe.
 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2024-12-18 12:14:58  
I don’t know that there is a point to barbarity anymore honestly. It’s got a lot of attack, but not much else. Ternion dagger +1 has the same 5% wsd, and likely better acc and tp speed
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2024-12-18 12:17:39  
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »
I don’t know that there is a point to barbarity anymore honestly. It’s got a lot of attack, but not much else. Ternion dagger +1 has the same 5% wsd, and likely better acc and tp speed

Are you comparing to NQ Barbarity? The +1 version doesn't have 5% WSD, it has 8%. And STR+28, so helps for STR based WS like Decimation. Super niche use cases, but DW with Dolichenus mainhand would be one of them (if that's actually a viable situation for WAR, which I would probably agree is not worth using over a different WS/mainhand weapon entirely).

For BST, it's prob more relevant due to that job lacking some of WAR's nice options; e.g., Blurred Shield +1 and much better Fencer (and Warcry/Savagery).
 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2024-12-18 12:24:05  
While the str is nice, how much do you think the 4% triple attack and superior tp gain would offset it
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2024-12-18 12:25:44  
Which is kinda moot anyway imo. Sang arias +1 is likely king for dolichenus offhand for decimation spam.
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By Nariont 2024-12-18 12:58:01  
My understanding for ikenga/barbarity OH is prioritizing consistency over spikes, WAR WS sets are largely 80%~ DA so DW deci's already hitting 6 hits on avg, so best to just go all into the WSC and some minor WSD if its mixed in with high WSC to push the overall dmg up and if a TA/QA procs(sailfi/Niq ring) then even better

Sangarius is probably the better TP OH but dont think itll keep up with the others on avg with its lower STR, but could be wrong
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 Shiva.Myamoto
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By Shiva.Myamoto 2024-12-18 13:18:06  
Kaffy said: »
No, was 1k to compare it to decimation spam. Warcry and fencer are counted just not displayed in the graph. Could very well be an error on how I set it up, however.

ahh yeah, okay. As posted above(warcry, fencer, r30 ikenga, boii legs) there is never a ws that wouldn't actually be at 3k tp value. Unsure if the sim actually picks that all up is what I was getting at.
 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2024-12-18 13:32:40  
Was just looking at it actually. Sangarius actually has higher base damage than barbarity. The str on barbarity gives an extra 10-11 wsc over sangarius. I’d likely take the pseudo 18 MA in that situation. 18 MA (chance) vs ~+6 ish base damage (consistency)
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2024-12-18 13:55:31  
Unrelated rant but kinda

I haven't used Sangarius in a long time, probably won't bother much even now if I did use Dolichenus MH on WAR. Seems like Zantetsuken would be better anyways (higher skill/lower delay, comes with haste for added flexibility, more str, acc and attack. Does have less base damage but Sanagarius is slower). But even that seems inferior to Barbarity +1, no?
 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2024-12-18 13:59:54  
Zantetsuken loses the base damage argument by about 25

Same qa, but doesn’t have da or ta
 Phoenix.Iocus
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By Phoenix.Iocus 2024-12-18 14:28:11  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Unrelated rant but kinda
They really went out of their way to NOT put RDM or BLU on Sangarius. Buramek'ah model, same as Sakpata's Sword, but for some reason gave it to DRK/WAR. Doesn't matter if it's the Unity version of Bloodsword either; they've made changes to others and included newer jobs

It's definitely Bloodsword or Gluttony sword for the model. The Adoulin swords were just fancy reskin that they gave to everyone. I do fully agree that a bunch of MA out of nowhere doesn't really have any precedence. They were just making a thing.
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 Phoenix.Iocus
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By Phoenix.Iocus 2024-12-18 14:41:13  
Taint said: »
Farsha is king. It melts Kalunga v25 and thats probably the hardest axe mob most will ever do. With everything endgame having a WS wall jobs not using Naegling need some flexibility.

Is there footage of this? I'd love to watch it
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By Taint 2024-12-18 15:35:41  
Maletaru helped our group get the clear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7B02Cb6OMw
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 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-12-18 19:26:01  
Taint said: »
Maletaru helped our group get the clear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7B02Cb6OMw

Thanks Taint, and again grats on your clear. I have the WAR ws numbers filtered from my log but yeah, there's your example. I think they said some other weapons like ukon were similar-ish, but axe was ultimately the best they could do. After simming and testing different axes and ws, mistral/calamity came out on top. Either Farsha or Ikenga axe are both good options if you have the RP.

Seemed like axe got TP faster too, for the SC windows. I think gaxe without hasso is just too slow. We were regularly having problems dropping our gaxe skillchain, but axe worked like a charm.
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