The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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By 2022-03-08 13:59:04
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By Spaitin 2022-03-08 14:21:43  
Carbuncle.Yiazmaat said: »
Anyone is using a fernagu with naegling sometimes ? Is it better than DW Dolichenus and decimation ?
Depend on buffs, they are pretty much the same though. Decimation is fusion and savage is fragmentation being the big difference.


Accuracy can be an issue with fernagu offhand. Attack cap can sometimes be an issue with decimation spam.

So, depends on buffs/content.
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-03-08 16:41:46  
I can see it in a place where geo-frailty is nerfed but otherwise we have full buffs from BRD / COR. The attack bonus from Naegling would be beneficial while the bard buffs would compensate for the accuracy issue. This might actually happen with whatever new BC content they come up with next.
 
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By Carbuncle.Yiazmaat 2022-03-09 06:20:02  
Spaitin said: »
Carbuncle.Yiazmaat said: »
Anyone is using a fernagu with naegling sometimes ? Is it better than DW Dolichenus and decimation ?
Depend on buffs, they are pretty much the same though. Decimation is fusion and savage is fragmentation being the big difference.


Accuracy can be an issue with fernagu offhand. Attack cap can sometimes be an issue with decimation spam.

So, depends on buffs/content.

I was thinking for Ody C , i have chango and Ukon both r15 , i know how good they're in here. But its getting boring sometimes to use the two same weapons for slashing (i dont like fencer naegling even if its good) so i was wondering how good could naegling/fernagu could be in here
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By SimonSes 2022-03-09 08:00:51  
Carbuncle.Yiazmaat said: »
Spaitin said: »
Carbuncle.Yiazmaat said: »
Anyone is using a fernagu with naegling sometimes ? Is it better than DW Dolichenus and decimation ?
Depend on buffs, they are pretty much the same though. Decimation is fusion and savage is fragmentation being the big difference.


Accuracy can be an issue with fernagu offhand. Attack cap can sometimes be an issue with decimation spam.

So, depends on buffs/content.

I was thinking for Ody C , i have chango and Ukon both r15 , i know how good they're in here. But its getting boring sometimes to use the two same weapons for slashing (i dont like fencer naegling even if its good) so i was wondering how good could naegling/fernagu could be in here

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/35200/the-parthenon-a-warriors-kyklos/206/#3597104
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-03-09 08:09:32  
Carbuncle.Yiazmaat said: »
Spaitin said: »
Carbuncle.Yiazmaat said: »
Anyone is using a fernagu with naegling sometimes ? Is it better than DW Dolichenus and decimation ?
Depend on buffs, they are pretty much the same though. Decimation is fusion and savage is fragmentation being the big difference.


Accuracy can be an issue with fernagu offhand. Attack cap can sometimes be an issue with decimation spam.

So, depends on buffs/content.

I was thinking for Ody C , i have chango and Ukon both r15 , i know how good they're in here. But its getting boring sometimes to use the two same weapons for slashing (i dont like fencer naegling even if its good) so i was wondering how good could naegling/fernagu could be in here

Assuming you can cap accuracy (standard disclaimer) WAR/NIN Naegling + fernagu is quite a bit stronger then fencer setups. If you really want to try something different then it should work out really well. Between gear, omelet and honor march we should be good on accuracy anyway.
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-03-09 08:11:50  
Asura.Jyubeii said: »
is gavialis helm still worth the slot on applicable days?

mainly for decimation

I've stopped using it in favor of Sakpata helm. It's +120/1024 to the damage multiplier so slightly stronger then fotia (100/1024) but it's iLevel states are fairly low compared to other options.
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By SimonSes 2022-03-09 08:22:13  
Asura.Saevel said: »
WAR/NIN Naegling + fernagu is quite a bit stronger then fencer setups

No it's not. I guess you either have me Blocked, which I respect, or you ignore math, which I don't respect :)
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By Lederic 2022-03-11 08:35:01  
Anyone have a bis fencer sakpata tp set?
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By Bismarck.Celerin 2022-03-11 16:54:59  
I'm looking to make a cleaving set for cataclysm for master rank purposes. Anyone have a set I can get for a point of reference?
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By Odin.Phinneus 2022-03-17 13:18:13  
Bismarck.Celerin said: »
I'm looking to make a cleaving set for cataclysm for master rank purposes. Anyone have a set I can get for a point of reference?

ItemSet 384033
I'd say this would probably be a decent set.

Cichol's Mantle with MAB, or Toro Cape as alternative.
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By SimonSes 2022-03-17 15:12:21  
Odin.Phinneus said: »
Cichol's Mantle with MAB, or Toro Cape as alternative.

Cichol's mantle with 10% WSD, not with mab. This set has 169+ MAB, which is much more than it has WSD, which means 1%WSD is much more than 1MAB (diminishing returns).
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2022-03-17 17:17:12  
Also... Alber Strap over Utu Grip? That one surprises me, I would expect 10% DEX mod (with over 200 DEX from base stats + the 4 Nyame pieces) to outweigh MAB+7/DA+2%. Utu's Acc+30 for TP helps too. Am I wrong?

Lederic said: »
Anyone have a bis fencer sakpata tp set?

Sorta depends on what your goals are. When I'm using a Sakpata based set, I tend to care a lot about DT- so I go for DT-50%: 40% from 5/5 Sakpata, and 5% each from cape and Moonlight Ring. So to me, it's a pretty straightforward set that is gonna look a lot like:
ItemSet 384035
DT-50% DA+95% if I'm counting correctly (33% from traits/gifts/merits, using max rank neck/belt, DA+10% on cape), lots of Acc/Atk, some STP and TA/QA where possible.

You do have some flexibility on accessories, but TBH those adjustments are a fairly minor change. Could go with stuff like Vim Torque +1 (I tend not to, because I really don't like the latent), Dedition Earring over Telos, Chirich +1 over Moonlight Ring, Ioskeha+1 if you really wanted to hit 100% DA, etc.

If you're going for max TP generation, defensive concerns be damned, that's a different discussion (Tatenashi+1 and AF+3/Relic+3 pieces)... but that's not a "Sakpata tp set".
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-03-17 20:44:29  
Often you want 5/5 Sakpata for the MEVA to avoid enfeebles, but don't really care about fully capping DT with it (or at least don't care about capping BDT, which means you can just slap 10 PDT on your cape and call it a day). I know there's quite a few mobs where I'm not in danger of dying, but use Sakpata anyway because the MEVA alone is huge, like on Chaos Steward in Odyssey.

Breath damage is rare and weak enough these days that I don't think I've ever had an issue going 5/5 Sakpata and leaving it at that for it. Most breath attacks are capped to low values (1k base damage was incredibly dangerous at 75 when we had like 1200 HP and BDT and DT was very rare, but nowadays not so much) and are easily resistable in MEVA sets. Even Hidhaegg and Lotanu breaths are pretty unthreatening in 5/5 Sakpata even if you're standing straight in front of them. The only breath damage that might still be dangerous to someone in 5/5 Sakpata I can think of is Volatile Cluster, or maybe Bambrox if his bombs are breath damage, but I haven't fought them since getting Sakpata, so they might just resist as well.

TLDR: I'd suggest instead going with 10 pdt on cape and using Chirich +1 over Moonlight for 1 more STP and 10 SB (for a total of 39 SB when Sakpata feet are R25).
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-03-17 21:17:54  
Not just MEVA, it's got ridiculously nice Defense and HP. It's both tank and DPS gear all wrapped up in one.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2022-03-17 23:50:59  
Asura.Geriond said: »
TLDR: I'd suggest instead going with 10 pdt on cape and using Chirich +1 over Moonlight for 1 more STP and 10 SB (for a total of 39 SB when Sakpata feet are R25).

Fair enough, could just do that and yeah that's probably a slight improvement for most situations. For me personally, I've always kinda liked Moonlight even just for the extra HP+110. Unless I'm the only DD on a mob with deadly TP moves, I tend to go for that as opposed to the SB+10 and ever so slightly higher STP/Acc on Chirich+1. But both are great options.

I often do stick PDT- on my TP/idle capes just for the reasons you set out. MDT is easy enough to cap with buffs, actually requiring BDT- is rare. But for WAR in particular, since I'm generally a fan of Moonlight and already sitting at DT-45% in a Sakpata set... welp, may as well just make a nice clean DT-50% was my thinking ;)

Asura.Saevel said: »
Not just MEVA, it's got ridiculously nice Defense and HP.

And if that wasn't enough, it's even fantastic for MDB! BiS MDB or close to it for WAR, with a handful of exceptions like Sacro body (which obviously doesn't have all of Sakpata's other awesome benefits).

I've found people tend to overlook MDB on some of the Odyssey sets, and it can be really potent. Mpaca set is another good example: a lot of SAM MNK praise Kendatsuba set for hybrid/defensive purposes for the higher Meva, but when it comes to actually taking damage the more consistent mitigation from Mpaca's higher MDB is usually better for eating magical moves/nukes. Meva does help more with status resists, but if you're talking damage...
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By Asura.Psycosocial 2022-03-18 02:05:58  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Asura.Geriond said: »
TLDR: I'd suggest instead going with 10 pdt on cape and using Chirich +1 over Moonlight for 1 more STP and 10 SB (for a total of 39 SB when Sakpata feet are R25).

Fair enough, could just do that and yeah that's probably a slight improvement for most situations. For me personally, I've always kinda liked Moonlight even just for the extra HP+110. Unless I'm the only DD on a mob with deadly TP moves, I tend to go for that as opposed to the SB+10 and ever so slightly higher STP/Acc on Chirich+1. But both are great options.

I often do stick PDT- on my TP/idle capes just for the reasons you set out. MDT is easy enough to cap with buffs, actually requiring BDT- is rare. But for WAR in particular, since I'm generally a fan of Moonlight and already sitting at DT-45% in a Sakpata set... welp, may as well just make a nice clean DT-50% was my thinking ;)

Asura.Saevel said: »
Not just MEVA, it's got ridiculously nice Defense and HP.

And if that wasn't enough, it's even fantastic for MDB! BiS MDB or close to it for WAR, with a handful of exceptions like Sacro body (which obviously doesn't have all of Sakpata's other awesome benefits).

I've found people tend to overlook MDB on some of the Odyssey sets, and it can be really potent. Mpaca set is another good example: a lot of SAM MNK praise Kendatsuba set for hybrid/defensive purposes for the higher Meva, but when it comes to actually taking damage the more consistent mitigation from Mpaca's higher MDB is usually better for eating magical moves/nukes. Meva does help more with status resists, but if you're talking damage...

Sakpata 5/5 is -40 DT so with your cape augment preference and Moonlight you'd be over cap. Keep in mind you'll also lose the benefit of the 110 HP from Moonlight once you WS (unless you WS in Moonlight as well o.o)

Not to derail, but MEVA affects status/magic dmg. Someone smart could probably break down the worth on MDB vs MEVA in the sets. In response to your post though, Kendatsubba or Mpaca...I'm not goin SAM unless I know the healer haha.

(edit because big brain kicked in)
I'm assuming you're using -5DT augment on cape to reach 50 which makes sense...but then again swap that to -10PDT and change your ring :P
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By Odin.Phinneus 2022-03-18 02:46:09  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Also... Alber Strap over Utu Grip? That one surprises me, I would expect 10% DEX mod (with over 200 DEX from base stats + the 4 Nyame pieces) to outweigh MAB+7/DA+2%. Utu's Acc+30 for TP helps too. Am I wrong?

Yeah, you're probably right. I adjusted it.

Also Simonses is right about the WSD on the back.
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By SimonSes 2022-03-18 05:34:06  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
've found people tend to overlook MDB on some of the Odyssey sets, and it can be really potent. Mpaca set is another good example: a lot of SAM MNK praise Kendatsuba set for hybrid/defensive purposes for the higher Meva, but when it comes to actually taking damage the more consistent mitigation from Mpaca's higher MDB is usually better for eating magical moves/nukes. Meva does help more with status resists, but if you're talking damage...

I would like to see proofs of this. From my experience it's almost always better to force resist on magic damage, than to have more mdb. I would always take 180 meva advantage on Kendatsuba over Mpaca, than Mpaca's 28 more mdb against magic damage, unless it's something that you can't resist.
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-03-18 07:52:48  
Asura.Psycosocial said: »
Not to derail, but MEVA affects status/magic dmg. Someone smart could probably break down the worth on MDB vs MEVA in the sets. In response to your post though, Kendatsubba or Mpaca...I'm not goin SAM unless I know the healer haha.


The way it works is that MEVD will generally reduce the average damage you take while MBD will reduce the maximum damage you take. Also additional effects / spikes don't use MDB but will use MEVA. What MDB is good for is reducing the absolute maximum damage heavy attacks can do to a level where they aren't threatening you. Monsters can always get lucky and pass the first MEVA check.
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By Asura.Psycosocial 2022-03-18 08:46:27  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Asura.Psycosocial said: »
Not to derail, but MEVA affects status/magic dmg. Someone smart could probably break down the worth on MDB vs MEVA in the sets. In response to your post though, Kendatsubba or Mpaca...I'm not goin SAM unless I know the healer haha.


The way it works is that MEVD will generally reduce the average damage you take while MBD will reduce the maximum damage you take. Also additional effects / spikes don't use MDB but will use MEVA. What MDB is good for is reducing the absolute maximum damage heavy attacks can do to a level where they aren't threatening you. Monsters can always get lucky and pass the first MEVA check.

Thanks for the breakdown. Nice hearing from you.
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2022-03-18 09:10:22  
SimonSes said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
've found people tend to overlook MDB on some of the Odyssey sets, and it can be really potent. Mpaca set is another good example: a lot of SAM MNK praise Kendatsuba set for hybrid/defensive purposes for the higher Meva, but when it comes to actually taking damage the more consistent mitigation from Mpaca's higher MDB is usually better for eating magical moves/nukes. Meva does help more with status resists, but if you're talking damage...

I would like to see proofs of this. From my experience it's almost always better to force resist on magic damage, than to have more mdb. I would always take 180 meva advantage on Kendatsuba over Mpaca, than Mpaca's 28 more mdb against magic damage, unless it's something that you can't resist.

I agree with Capuchin, MDB should not be ignored. And Saevel is right as well. It just serves as EVEN FURTHER damage reduction. So if you had to make a choice between evasion/resistance and MDB, evasion/resistance will usually always be the more powerful reduction unless you’re looking at a piece with +200MDB or something absurd.

Now how potent MDB actually is? I honestly have no clue? But from past experiences I’ve managed to take a few hundred points less damage from magical AOEs at events by actively including extra MDB where I couldn’t get MEVA? So seems to work well as far as I can tell. I don’t know if anyone’s ever done any actual testing on it or not but why not, ya know?
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By Asura.Eiryl 2022-03-18 09:12:34  
Each MDB is very insignificant, but it adds up fast.

Meh, I deleted the log with all the Centurio vs Magus Roll data, I thought Magus Roll was broken because of how "ineffective" it is, but it does work correctly, just not great.

They explain it better below.
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-03-18 09:27:57  
MDB is a simple denominator term in the damage formula, so it's very easy to figure out how much it'll reduce damage by. If you have 150 MDB (base 100 plus 50 in gear/buffs/job traits), adding 10 is going to reduce magic damage taken by 6.25%.
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-03-18 09:37:27  
Valefor.Yandaime said: »
Now how potent MDB actually is? I honestly have no clue? But from past experiences I’ve managed to take a few hundred points less damage from magical AOEs at events by actively including extra MDB where I couldn’t get MEVA? So seems to work well as far as I can tell. I don’t know if anyone’s ever done any actual testing on it or not but why not, ya know?

Magic Attack and Magic Defense have the same relationship as physical attack / physical defense, it's a multiplier and we can compare the reduction as a percentage.

For comparison the MBD values of the various sets
Code
Nyame MDB 33
Sakpata MDB 39
Mpaca MDB 62
Malignance MDB 29
Gleti's MDB 67


Giving the attacker 100 MAB for 200 Magic Attack and full Sakpata we get

No MBD
200/100 = 2.0, baseline for ease of reference

200/139 = 1.438

2.0/1.438 = 1.390, 39% reduction in damage.

Barspells give 14 MBD if the body is used, and it should be.
200/153 = 1.307
1.438/1.307 = 1.10, the 14 MBD is reducing damage by 10%.

Now lets pretend WAR could equip Mpaca
200/176 = 1.136

1.307/1.136 = 1.15, Mpaca with barspells would be a 15% reduction to the maximum damage done over Sakpata with barspells.

These percentages hold true regardless of the attackers magic attack, I just used 100 MAB to make the math easier to follow. To put actual numbers to it, lets assume a monster has an attack that does 3000 magic damage against us and we have 50% MDT, barspell and Sakpata vs Mpaca.

Sakpata WAR maximum damage (53 MBD)
3000 * 0.50 * 1.307 = 1960

Imaginary Mpaca WAR maximum damage (76 MBD)
3000 * 0.50 * 1.136 = 1704

While the MEVA might cause average damage to be lower, MBD causes the maximum damage to be lower, which could be very important with high damage attacks that can do 70%+ of our HP. Of course WAR can't use Mpaca but its a good way to see the value of MBD for jobs like SAM, NIN, BLU and MNK.
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-03-18 09:52:42  
Here is one real world situation where they actually mattered, V20 Ngai. Our MNK, at full HP, would occasionally get insta killed by Tidal Guillotine. He had amazing gear and was doing high damage and we couldn't figure it out until we talked to a lessor geared MNK that never died. Same buffs, same setup, the only difference was the other MNK didn't have Malignance and used Mpaca instead. When I did the MDB values the lightbulb went off and our MNK switched to Mpaca gear and Tidal never killed him again. That extra MBD was just enough to lower Tidal's maximum damage to never be close to 50% of his max HP. This was one of those instances where the maximum damage of an attack was more important then it's average damage.
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-03-18 14:09:04  
On the other hand, if you have Scherzo up, Mpaca's MDB might bring you just out of 75% range, resulting in your death (especially if you have Mantra up). Be careful.
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-03-18 14:20:45  
Asura.Geriond said: »
On the other hand, if you have Scherzo up, Mpaca's MDB might bring you just out of 75% range, resulting in your death (especially if you have Mantra up). Be careful.

Tidal ignores Scherzo entirely, or rather Scherzo has 0 effect on the death as the calculation happens before damage is applied. These deaths were with scherzo up.

The way tidal works is that if it's damage would of brought you under 50% max HP, you just die instead, no damage is actually done.

Example
Your at 2500/2500 HP, tidal only needs to deal 1251 damage, bringing you under 1250 to kill you.

Your at 2000/3000 HP, tidal needs to deal 501, bringing you under 1500 to kill you.

2000/2500HP, because the Max HP down effect was removed, it just needs to deal 751 damage to kill you.

Using MDB resulted in those random "unlucky" deaths going away. Going from V15 to V20 was just enough to make that move dangerous.

Scherzo protects against Protolithic Puncture and Pelagic Cleaver, especially if it just applied defense down with it's bite or Aquatic Lance.
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-03-18 14:24:30  
My group had 100% of Tidal Guillotines on V20 OHKO one of our melees until we started putting up Scherzo, at which point he started surviving basically every time. I don't think it goes off of pre-scherzo damage.
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