The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Asura.Aburaage
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By Asura.Aburaage 2021-10-22 20:51:15  
Highest I've gotten 1.47, but 1.54 (I think is the max) is totally possible.
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By SimonSes 2021-10-23 04:10:05  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Asura.Sirris said: »
That's what gives me pause about Fencer builds full time. We are largely forced to them in Odyssey but outside of that how often do you get Haste Samba from a main DNC or even /DNC?

Something that always bugs me a little bit about any discussion where Haste Samba is relevant is that when you're really getting down into the "optimal" setups, people tend to focus only on the WAR's personal DPS.

1) Doesn't account for the fact that you might have better overall party DPS with a DNC going a different job altogether. WAR Fencer w/ Samba might win versus WAR DW in a given situation, but does WAR+DNC total DPS beat... say, WAR+SAM or WAR+DRG or WAR+WAR (and twice the WARCRY)? Nothing against DNC, maybe you have a party member who just loves DNC and wants to be on that job - OK, cool, that's totally fine and Samba playing nice with WAR Fencer builds is a bonus. But if you're bringing a DNC just to optimize the WAR's damage, you're running some risk of just being that "princess DD" wanting to build the entire party around themselves and not focusing on the big picture, IMO. But maybe your goal isn't max segments, it's just to have the biggest number next to your own name on the parse. In that case, carry on :P

2) People also tend to base DPS discussion on the very inaccurate assumption that Samba is always up. And it's not, it requires the DNC to actually hit the same mob and apply Daze effect before the WAR gets any benefit from it. On an NM that lives for a while, the DNC being able to maintain Samba is a reasonable assumption. In something like Odyssey farming, MANY times the WAR will engage a mob before the DNC does, maybe even killing the mob without getting any Samba benefit at all. Or maybe you're thinking of having the DNC split off and focus on a family of piercing weak mobs; that could mean no sambas for your WAR who may be fighting something else, or no Fencer build to benefit from Sambas because you did stay with the DNC and switched to polearm (and if you're /DRG, that's already a bit of a hit versus /SAM Hasso for 2h).

I'm pretty sure none suggesting to bring DNC only for WAR. People only said that IF you have DNC in party then... DNC is usually there because box step is used to cap pdif for everyone, support heal etc.

For segments farming if you go Fencer, you can simply go /DNC and have your own haste samba. It's then up always. 5% is not 10%, but it's enough to beat DW still.
 Carbuncle.Yiazmaat
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By Carbuncle.Yiazmaat 2021-10-23 04:11:23  
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That is a good run i guess
 Asura.Aburaage
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By Asura.Aburaage 2021-10-23 09:25:05  
That's a good use of bolter's roll on 1st/3rd, gonna try incorporating that in our runs, should give 1-2 extra min.
 Asura.Nususu
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By Asura.Nususu 2021-10-23 10:39:37  
Would the ambu Cape for cloud splitter have INT on it, or one of the WS mod stats? I don’t see dINT on the wiki page but have seen some people putting INT on the capes
 Bahamut.Lexouritis
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By Bahamut.Lexouritis 2021-10-23 11:14:03  
Asura.Aburaage said: »
That's a good use of bolter's roll on 1st/3rd, gonna try incorporating that in our runs, should give 1-2 extra min.

hermes quenchers instead
 Asura.Bippin
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By Asura.Bippin 2021-10-23 12:51:55  
Asura.Nususu said: »
Would the ambu Cape for cloud splitter have INT on it, or one of the WS mod stats? I don’t see dINT on the wiki page but have seen some people putting INT on the capes
Cloud has no dINT, STR or MND

Edit 30 STR or MND, 20 MACC/MDamage WSD
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 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2021-10-23 18:30:06  
SimonSes said: »
I'm pretty sure none suggesting to bring DNC only for WAR. People only said that IF you have DNC in party then... DNC is usually there because box step is used to cap pdif for everyone, support heal etc.

For segments farming if you go Fencer, you can simply go /DNC and have your own haste samba. It's then up always. 5% is not 10%, but it's enough to beat DW still.

I don’t think anyone was explicitly saying you must bring a DNC… but Fencer/DW discussions always bring up Haste Samba as a very important factor, to the point where sometimes it feels
like it’s almost assumed that you have sambas.

But to your comment… how well does WAR/DNC Fencer stack up versus WAR/DRG? Apologies if that was already laid out in a previous post, may have just missed it if so.
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By SimonSes 2021-10-23 19:02:43  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
SimonSes said: »
I'm pretty sure none suggesting to bring DNC only for WAR. People only said that IF you have DNC in party then... DNC is usually there because box step is used to cap pdif for everyone, support heal etc.

For segments farming if you go Fencer, you can simply go /DNC and have your own haste samba. It's then up always. 5% is not 10%, but it's enough to beat DW still.

I don’t think anyone was explicitly saying you must bring a DNC… but Fencer/DW discussions always bring up Haste Samba as a very important factor, to the point where sometimes it feels
like it’s almost assumed that you have sambas.

But to your comment… how well does WAR/DNC Fencer stack up versus WAR/DRG? Apologies if that was already laid out in a previous post, may have just missed it if so.

SimonSes said: »
Naegling has 75TP per hit
Naegling /DRG
Naegling 240 delay * 0.3125 = 75 delay, so 1TP per delay
Naegling /DNC with self Haste S. we have:
Naegling 1.19TP per delay

So basically 19% faster TP gain vs 7% stronger WSs. Pretty sure /DNC easily wins in capped magic/gear haste scenario.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-10-24 22:47:57  
Ramuh.Austar said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
More like Fencer (on it's own) cripple's your DPS due to being so far under haste cap.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Please remember, the difference between 78.51% haste and 68.75% haste is 45% attack speed, DW is higher at 56%

Using a 100 delay weapon for simplicity sake

2H = 0.78515625 (0.21484375)
DW = 0.8 (0.2)
Fencer = 0.6875 (0.3125)

100 * 0.21484375 = 21.484
100 * 0.20 = 20.0
100 * 0.3125 = 31.25

31.25/20 = Fencer is 56.25% slower then DW
31.25/21.484 = Fencer is 45.45% slower then 2H
21.484/20 = 2H is 7.4% slower the DW

Fencer didn't magically become amazing, it's always been this way and we've been talking about Fencer Savage as an option since Adoulin. The reason it's behind the others is due to its extremely slow attack speed and therefor WS rate.

Push comes to shove can always make a Fernagu.
If all you need is the comparative difference in attack speed, you can save yourself some steps and just do
Code
(old haste - new haste) / (new haste - 1)


(.6875 - .7851) / (.7851 - 1) = 0.4542
(.6875 - .8) / (.8 - 1) = 0.5625

I do it long form so people can see exactly how a small difference in haste has massive impacts on the top end.

To the general discussion, there is nothing new with Fencer, it's been this way for years now. We go back far enough you'll see me having discussions on how to optimize it, getting really good numbers with Savage Blade, but ultimately it falls behind due to the impact the massive attack speed difference has in WS frequency.

If a 2H and Fencer build parse remotely close in an event like Seg Farming, then the 2H build is crushing the Fencer build in actual damage due to the massive overkill Savage has on anything under 30~40% HP. Savage also isn't the only WS that behaves this way, it just happens to be the most accessible with Naegling and it doesn't SC with itself. Fights like Bumba where you really want to avoid making SC's, Savage ends up being the best go to.

Something else, and this is very specific to Warrior, Retaliation procs a lot more on a Fencer setup, giving an increase in TP gain if we're the ones tanking the mob. Makes Fencer setups ideal for fights like Bumba.
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By Starbucks 2021-10-25 02:03:01  
Doji will outparse Masa for the same reason. Two weak ws which allows SC damage to proc in the log parses higher than killing a mob with one ws or two where the second kills it and doesn't allow sc damage to show in the chat log.
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By SimonSes 2021-10-25 04:05:45  
Asura.Saevel said: »
there is nothing new with Fencer

Asura.Saevel said: »
Fencer didn't magically become amazing, it's always been this way and we've been talking about Fencer Savage as an option since Adoulin.

I would say since Adoulin there was a lot of changes. Especially considering Savage Fencer set (some of the below applies also to DW build ofc, but this is more of Savage Fencer vs 2h builds).

1. 230 TP bonus from gifts
2. Blurred Shield +1 adding 7%WSD and +1 fencer (50TP bonus on WS)
3. +2 Neck adding 15STR and +1 Fencer (50TP bonus on WS)
4. 10%WSD Relic head and Ambu cape
5. Nyame Set
6. Naegling
7. STR:Attack 1:1 (reduce the advantage of Smite a little)

Ofc 2h builds got boosts too with R15 Augment or recently Sakpata under right condition (enough attack), so its hard to say about relative changes, but both builds are FAR from what they were 9 years ago.

Also I already showed how stupid are you generalization (not including real delays and real TP per hit and doing some simplicity of using non existing 100 delay weapons) of delay and how confusing they are about real difference in TP gain. I know you probably blocked me, because I keep pointing out flaws in your posts, so you wont even see this, but Im writing this for other people to not to be confused by you.
 Shiva.Flowen
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By Shiva.Flowen 2021-10-25 08:25:26  
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
SimonSes said: »
I'm pretty sure none suggesting to bring DNC only for WAR. People only said that IF you have DNC in party then... DNC is usually there because box step is used to cap pdif for everyone, support heal etc.

For segments farming if you go Fencer, you can simply go /DNC and have your own haste samba. It's then up always. 5% is not 10%, but it's enough to beat DW still.

I don’t think anyone was explicitly saying you must bring a DNC… but Fencer/DW discussions always bring up Haste Samba as a very important factor, to the point where sometimes it feels
like it’s almost assumed that you have sambas.

But to your comment… how well does WAR/DNC Fencer stack up versus WAR/DRG? Apologies if that was already laid out in a previous post, may have just missed it if so.

Just /drg and single wield on war for ody farm runs. As i'm sure you know best on paper is usually a snapshot of a specific situation. In Ody, running between mobs, samba that cost TP wearing off between every run to new mobs, the fact it's a few swings > ws then a period of not attacking briefly etc (not to mention other perks like ancient circle on the dragon nms, high jump in a pinch etc). The big difference in clear speed is really whether you kill in one or two ws.
 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-10-25 10:21:40  
SimonSes said: »
7. STR:Attack 1:1 (reduce the advantage of Smite a little)
Smite didn't exist at all until Adoulin, so that's more of an increase for 2-hander builds when taking both into account.
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By SimonSes 2021-10-25 12:27:33  
Asura.Geriond said: »
SimonSes said: »
7. STR:Attack 1:1 (reduce the advantage of Smite a little)
Smite didn't exist at all until Adoulin, so that's more of an increase for 2-hander builds when taking both into account.

Maybe I wasn't precise enough, I was talking about compering builds from SoA and now, since he said nothing changed between SoA and now. That being said I don't remember when Smite was implemented during SoA and if that was late SoA then I guess it's a fair point.
 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-10-25 12:46:11  
I don't think he was talking about any specific point within Adoulin when Savage/Fencer became notable, just the expansion's era in general, so he was counting most of those things already.

Smite came out in 2016, which is actually after Adoulin; I have a bad habit of talking about RoV as if it was part of Adoulin's era, when it's a unique period of its own in terms of balance.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-10-25 15:25:28  
Been messing around with Fencer setups since 2016 all the way till yesterday, it's not something that magically came out of nowhere. It's a tool, use it when appropriate, which isn't "everywhere".

The only thing Nyame did was make it possible to get a good set without having to rely on perfect Reisen Augments or good DM augments. Naegling was definitely a nice bump but still didn't change the math on Quantity vs Quality because Chango and Upheaval gear has been updated since then too. Fencer SB does lots of overkilling on trash mobs, which is why you see people running around as /DRG trying to swipe kills off each other.
 Asura.Friedrik
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By Asura.Friedrik 2021-10-25 18:20:46  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Been messing around with Fencer setups since 2016 all the way till yesterday, it's not something that magically came out of nowhere.


Who is implying that it is?
 Siren.Kyten
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By Siren.Kyten 2021-10-27 13:23:44  
Does the retaliation gear such as AF hands+3 and Empy feet+1 have to remain equipped for the DMG+ or does it work upon activation?
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-10-27 13:43:14  
They do.

source: jp wiki

Quote:
Impact of equipment
"Improved literation effect"
Bonus for counterattack damage. Effective only when equipped.
The amount of bonus varies depending on the equipment.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-10-27 15:21:04  
Siren.Kyten said: »
Does the retaliation gear such as AF hands+3 and Empy feet+1 have to remain equipped for the DMG+ or does it work upon activation?

Yep gotta wear em full time, and they just make it do more damage.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2021-10-28 01:42:35  
Asura.Saevel said: »
Honestly this is a real limitation of excel, it's not designed to do complex simulations for combat in a video game. I prefer the results from some of the python simulations that have been circulating out there, though I wish more were released to the public for usage.
With holidays soon I'll have time to work on some of mine again. I haven't played XI in quite awhile though and other than just having unfinished projects, I don't have much motivation to do it. I could at least consolidate several jobs into categories such as TwoHanded, DualWield, HandToHand, Fencer.
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By Smokinskull 2021-11-03 17:38:27  
Can anyone point me to an update gear set guide for 2021?
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By Crossbones 2021-11-03 18:24:54  
This whole thread and guide and the guide mysticzero wrote for dw/fencer etc.
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By Aricomfy 2021-11-10 09:40:18  
Contradance and Building Flourish at Master Level 5 when subbing Dancer. Can someone confirm if Contradance is obtained? Since Composure isn't obtainable, I wonder what the scope of "stance" abilities not being obtainable actually is. If it is obtainable, then...

Contradance - AoE Status Removal when paired with Healing Waltz.

Building Flourish - Accuracy, Attack +25%, Critical Hit Rate with 3 finishing moves.

Master Level 55 unlocks Dual Wield III if it ever happens.
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By devasbismarck 2021-11-15 06:56:01  
If war was to use an elemental ws what is the best ones available to us and what would the ws set look like?
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-11-15 06:58:41  
devasbismarck said: »
If war was to use an elemental ws what is the best ones available to us and what would the ws set look like?

Cloud Splitter, and lots of Nyame.
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By Asura.Geriond 2021-11-15 07:06:11  
Aricomfy said: »
Contradance and Building Flourish at Master Level 5 when subbing Dancer. Can someone confirm if Contradance is obtained? Since Composure isn't obtainable, I wonder what the scope of "stance" abilities not being obtainable actually is. If it is obtainable, then...

Contradance - AoE Status Removal when paired with Healing Waltz.

Building Flourish - Accuracy, Attack +25%, Critical Hit Rate with 3 finishing moves.

Master Level 55 unlocks Dual Wield III if it ever happens.
Contradance isn't a stance, just a normal JA. Stances are defined as being persistent and having durations longer than their recast.
 
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By SimonSes 2021-11-18 04:56:58  
kusaregedo77 said: »
nyame feet and sulevia are really close. any preference for one over the other for various ws?

I mean it kinda obvious. Nyame has skillchain bonus, massive meva/eva, higher HP/DEF, higher accuracy, higher -DT. It's basically always much better because of that, even if DPS is close.
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