The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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2010-06-21
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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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By Spaitin 2021-02-19 14:55:34  
Lili said: »
"only good in zergs with reso spam"
Warrior has been super good these last 3 years. Been fun being top end in whatever weapon you decide to use.
Entropy is actually respectable now btw.

Right now, warrior is kinda nuts...
Fenrir.Kaldaek said: »
I'm not going to lie. Can't wait to see Spaitin's new guide. I'm checking daily :P

No pressure!
Lol thank you. I am currently on the Weapon Skill Sets part. I am coming up with a better way to organize it since war has so many WS to use. Going with sets and what WS work for those sets. Otherwise the guide would be super long. Going to work in ranged eventually. Got a lot of the utility sets done.
eeternal said: »
Can't wait to see Chango Upheaval and Uko with the new set :)

Upheaval got a solid boost actually. I think BIS is going to be 3 pieces of sakpata. Hands legs and body.
Ukko's went from trash to almost decent. Problem is everything else got better.

I don't remember exactly, but I think we are now hitting harder than when we had the WSD bug.
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By SimonSes 2021-02-19 16:30:15  
Spaitin said: »
Asura.Nuance said: »
Im a big fan of consistency and ease of use myself :D
Fair enough lol. But stardiver was consistently high, just sometimes massively high. With blood rage and warcry it was well above decimation. With out either of those, decimation won. Decimation still has the same old issue of DW doesnt TP as well as 2handers. Frequency is lower.

Reso big issue is attack cap. If you can guarantee attack cap it is bonkers. Easily our best WS spam for pure WS damage. With ideal party set up, raging fists spam was very similar to reso.

Now that I think about it, our fencer builds with a dnc are probably all better than decimation spam as well. So maybe like our 7th best overall non rema build? maybe our easiest good build? idk. Things are lets black and white than they used to be.

Warrior builds kinda depend on "mode" warcry mode and drepanum is amazing. Outside of warcry and it is meh. Blood rage and warcry make shining one extremely good, but without it shining one is pretty meh. Kind fun how war works. We are probably the most customizable to each situation.


When you say war cry and blood rage I assume you mean use one then other after first end yes?

Also you are mostly talking about zerg builds. I don't think that Reso beats Decimation without warcry. Decimation is so strong because it doesn't require any tp bonus. It's static for the whole time. Reso is very good only for 30-36% of the time. Ofc by perfect party setup you probably mean 2xWAR and COR, so you can prolong Warcry to 6min, but that still won't mean anything for let's say Dynamism or even Odyssey farming. In theory you could do the same for many jobs and builds and shift they power on top through temporary buffs. Also with more and more targets with frailty nerfed by 75-90% Reso attack penalty is a problem.

So I would say it differently, Decimation is probably the best no Rema build with 100% uptime.
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By Spaitin 2021-02-19 20:52:23  
SimonSes said: »
When you say war cry and blood rage I assume you mean use one then other after first end yes?
Obviously, one overwrites the other.
SimonSes said: »
Also with more and more targets with frailty nerfed by 75-90% Reso attack penalty is a problem.
I think this will be an issue for the sakpata set as a whole. More for reso than the rest. But it will still be hard for the rest of the builds. Honestly naegling could be our overall best weapon with a fernagu build outside of chango? Or any fencer build with a dancer. Overall best meaning easiest to get to full dps in a 6 man party.

SimonSes said: »
Ofc by perfect party setup you probably mean 2xWAR and COR
No, just means geo, cor and bard for support.
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By SimonSes 2021-02-20 01:57:27  
Spaitin said: »
SimonSes said: »
Ofc by perfect party setup you probably mean 2xWAR and COR
No, just means geo, cor and bard for support.

With that setup you have Reso winning with Decimation in 5min fight using no random deal?

Another thing to consider is that Gaol will be our second home for a long time now. War is kinda in weird position here. Has good tools to zerg those fights and cover weaknesses, but DNC is pretty much required for that too, because you need that haste samba badly for all builds, since you can't use subjob. DNC doesn't have slashing option tho, so it's kinda bad for Trex, that WAR would want to farm the most.
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By Spaitin 2021-02-20 18:19:12  
SimonSes said: »
With that setup you have Reso winning with Decimation in 5min fight using no random deal?
Yes. With or without warcry, Reso wins. Reso spam just has too high of a frequency compared to decimation builds. Shining one stardiver spam did as well. But that one might require a bit more testing.
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By Bahamut.Yiazmat 2021-02-21 06:46:08  
Which weapon for Reso now ? Zulfiquar or Montante still better options ?
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By SimonSes 2021-02-21 07:53:14  
Spaitin said: »
SimonSes said: »
With that setup you have Reso winning with Decimation in 5min fight using no random deal?
Yes. With or without warcry, Reso wins. Reso spam just has too high of a frequency compared to decimation builds. Shining one stardiver spam did as well. But that one might require a bit more testing.

Interesting because for DRK Reso seems to significantly lose without Warcry and very significantly win with Warcry and afaik DRK has better Reso weapon and capped delay with Great Sword during LR. I guess there must be some significant difference between WAR and DRK that I dont see (and it doesnt seems to be Double Attack, because it helps both builds almost equally?).
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2021-02-21 14:23:36  
Bahamut.Yiazmat said: »
Which weapon for Reso now ? Zulfiquar or Montante still better options ?


Montante+1 with Augs or Raetic Algol+1 in Escha will serve you well.
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By Bahamut.Yiazmat 2021-02-21 14:25:53  
Whats about the new ody GS ? Its less expansive, more dmg, 15 str and some DA
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By Spaitin 2021-02-21 18:16:54  
Bahamut.Yiazmat said: »
Whats about the new ody GS ? Its less expansive, more dmg, 15 str and some DA
Montante +1 FTW. It is super good even without augments. Even at nq.
SimonSes said: »
I guess there must be some significant difference between WAR and DRK
Probably the TP builds.
SimonSes said: »
Interesting because for DRK Reso seems to significantly lose without Warcry and very significantly win with Warcry and afaik DRK has better Reso weapon and capped delay with Great Sword during LR
Also, where did you get that information? I would like to see the testing or if it is just a spreadsheet. I am not sure I beleive that info tbh. Would like to check it out. I wouldn't be surprised if they were comparing a decimation SC to a reso spam.
SimonSes said: »
DRK has better Reso weapon
What weapon is beating out montante+1 on dark? Not zan. Calad edged it out before the augments to montante if you could guarantee amIII
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By olson2189 2021-02-23 14:48:34  
Is Loxotic Mace +1 the best club option for Judgment spam now?
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By Spaitin 2021-02-23 14:57:40  
Yes
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By SimonSes 2021-02-23 15:56:35  
Spaitin said: »
What weapon is beating out montante+1 on dark? Not zan. Calad edged it out before the augments to montante if you could guarantee amIII

Yeah you are right I had Zan beating it slightly but I had no augment on Montante+1. With augments Im actually getting almost identical DPS with both of them, but I'm checking with Full Sakpata R20 (in sheet yes) for both TP and WS and with Chaos/Sam(70sTP), so maybe with different buffs and slightly more optimized TP set one would win? Calad with AM3 doing Reso is way ahead tho

Spaitin said: »
Also, where did you get that information? I would like to see the testing or if it is just a spreadsheet. I am not sure I beleive that info tbh. Would like to check it out. I wouldn't be surprised if they were comparing a decimation SC to a reso spam.

From sheet, double checking WS numbers with own math. I dont know the place where I could check this in practice. Maybe on Wave 3 boss, but I dont really do that anymore and I dont have enough chars to easily spam something like Neak with full buffs.
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By Spaitin 2021-02-23 16:36:12  
SimonSes said: »
Calad with AM3 doing Reso is way ahead tho
If it is way ahead, then something is wrong with the sheet. It has been done a lot and it is really just edging out no aug montante. With augments it is probably a tie or win for montante.
SimonSes said: »
Yeah you are right I had Zan beating it slightly but I had no augment on Montante+1.
Hmm, i think your spreadsheet is messed up. I highly doubt zan beats even an nq montante. Ill probably check it out eventually. Zan should have a tiny edge when firing at the same total TP. But montante should have a significant advantage in the TP phase. Unless the haste from zan is allowing drk to do something I am missing. Either way, that is for the drk thread
SimonSes said: »
Maybe on Wave 3 boss, but I dont really do that anymore and I dont have enough chars to easily spam something like Neak with full buffs.
Wave three boss is a horrible way to test that out for a multitude of reasons. If you have the characters, onychophora is a really good and easy to manipulate target for weapon skills that do not SC. Can ignore his mechanic entirely for the first 50%

For war, reso is beating decimation spams assuming they both have capped attack. With or without warcry.
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By SimonSes 2021-02-23 17:56:39  
Spaitin said: »
Hmm, i think your spreadsheet is messed up. I highly doubt zan beats even an nq montante. Ill probably check it out eventually. Zan should have a tiny edge when firing at the same total TP. But montante should have a significant advantage in the TP phase. Unless the haste from zan is allowing drk to do something I am missing. Either way, that is for the drk thread

Im trying really hard to find some flaw , but Im not seeing it.

Montante has ~6.9% more tp per hit, but its ~4.2 slower. Montante also has 4% higher hits per round. This generally results in almost the same white damage DPS and Montante doing Resolutions at slightly higher TP, but Zan being very marginally faster to WS and having higher STR and base damage cancels out most of higher TP advantage of Montante. Overall after switching Montante to 5%TA (I had it on 4%, because not everyone will be in 1st Unity) it's now 1.4% ahead of Zan in DPS and doing 3.4% higher avg Reso damage.

Generally sheet also suggests that holding TP to ~2000 is beneficial to DPS, which seems logical since fTP pretty much doubles from 1000 to 2000TP.

Calad is almost 25% DPS ahead tho.
It has 16% less TP per hit, but its 10.5% faster. So in the end in the run to ~2000TP Caladbolg is ~4.5% slower and is doing 2000 damage less with Resolution, but it's doing ~21000 more white damage lol. I tried to modify Monatante TP set to increase TP gain at cost of Sakpata's much higher white damage and I was able to squeeze +2.3% more dps that way at cost of survivability of 3 Sakpata pieces. Still super far behind Calad.
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By Spaitin 2021-02-23 19:45:50  
SimonSes said: »
Calad is almost 25% DPS ahead tho
Then the sheet is wrong. This has been done a lot actually and calad and montante are neck and neck. Not sure what the issue is. But a 25% increase in dps is an obvious flaw. It just isn't that big of an increase. I can believe calad winning. But 25%? lol no way.

Ill have to run it in game once i finish the stuff I am doing on war.

But yeah, wrong thread.
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By SimonSes 2021-02-23 19:56:11  
Spaitin said: »
SimonSes said: »
Calad is almost 25% DPS ahead tho
Then the sheet is wrong. This has been done a lot actually and calad and montante are neck and neck. Not sure what the issue is. But a 25% increase in dps is an obvious flaw. It just isn't that big of an increase.

But yeah, wrong thread.

I kinda doubt it was made that much without warcry and with Sakpata TP Calad holding TP. Especially that I'm calculating Sakpata R20, which none probably even has one piece.

I agree it's wrong thread tho, so I will cut it here.
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By Aricomfy 2021-02-23 20:14:30  
So how about that Sangarius +1. Where's this bad boy sitting after the new update? Still in the offhand for Dolichenus?
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By Spaitin 2021-02-23 20:17:55  
Aricomfy said: »
So how about that Sangarius +1. Where's this bad boy sitting after the new update? Still in the offhand for Dolichenus?
Yes. Ternion +1 is still a good option though.
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By Aricomfy 2021-02-23 20:28:13  
Spaitin said: »
Yes. Ternion +1 is still a good option though.

Nice. Just made it after putting it off forever. Feels really nice dropping Barbarity +1 for it, that ACC, multi-attack and HP Drain is appreciated.

Messed around with Resolution spamming in Sakpata and yeah, it's looking pretty damn nice. That frequency is ridiculous. Really fun to use Montante +1 and I'm glad GS is finally seeing the light of day again.

Can't wait for them to fix the bugged DT -9% on the pants either.
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By Spaitin 2021-02-23 22:18:45  
Aricomfy said: »
Messed around with Resolution spamming in Sakpata and yeah, it's looking pretty damn nice.
Yeah, that set is kinda bonkers. Especially in 1 hour zergs. My new zerg set up is war war war geo cor whm. (Yes, you can skip a bard lol). It melts everything you can 1 hour spam lol. Did schah in 19 seconds. If you need to use a bard, just swap out one war. But if you have bolster frail torp haste, You are capped attack acc and haste with just the geo.

Doesn't have to be exactly that set up. But lol it is fun.

With war war geo cor bard whm you might be able to do all the helms except maybe zerde and erynys. Not positive on that one though. For Zerde I like to use 2 cor and just do a 4-6 step SC. It is really easy. RR > RR > UP > UP. Idk if two war in the new set are durable enough to deal with adds. Maybe. Frailty, barrier,Wilt? Probably would be durable enough with that idk.
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By Odin.Senaki 2021-02-23 23:11:11  
Spaitin said: »
Aricomfy said: »
Messed around with Resolution spamming in Sakpata and yeah, it's looking pretty damn nice.
Yeah, that set is kinda bonkers. Especially in 1 hour zergs. My new zerg set up is war war war geo cor whm. (Yes, you can skip a bard lol). It melts everything you can 1 hour spam lol. Did schah in 19 seconds. If you need to use a bard, just swap out one war. But if you have bolster frail torp haste, You are capped attack acc and haste with just the geo.

Doesn't have to be exactly that set up. But lol it is fun.

With war war geo cor bard whm you might be able to do all the helms except maybe zerde and erynys. Not positive on that one though. For Zerde I like to use 2 cor and just do a 4-6 step SC. It is really easy. RR > RR > UP > UP. Idk if two war in the new set are durable enough to deal with adds. Maybe. Frailty, barrier,Wilt? Probably would be durable enough with that idk.

Which weapons did War use?

Also is 'RR' resolution?
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By Spaitin 2021-02-23 23:19:54  
Odin.Senaki said: »
Which weapons did War use?

Also is 'RR' resolution?
Weapon doesnt matter. Schah was 3 war spamming reso. RR = Raging Rush.

Generally for 1 hour zergs. Drepanum,Dolichenus,Chango,Montante,Raetic,Karambit etc are all fine.

With the new armor set I think we are easily as good at 1 hour zergs as a smn. It is crazy easy now. With the new set you have highest possible MEVA MDB. Capped DT and SB with very high MA and white damage. You get a 3 hit build with 100 DA with sam/fighter rolls.
We are far more durable than the pets and we generally will hit harder at a higher WS frequency with a smaller chance of something messing us up. We are also easier to cure than the pets and remove debuffs. We also replace the tank...
Going 6 man war war geo cor bard whm. With geo doing frail,vex,attunement most content won't land ANY debuffs (well, they might). Can basically ignore spells and TP moves. If the mob is hitting hard. Switch out attunement for wilt. Then you are extremely unlikely to be debuffed and stuff doesn't hit you hard at all.

Go try WOC with 2 war geo cor bard whm. lol.


Side note. Still working on the guide. Changing how to organize the WS again. Lol it is the most annoying part.
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By Odin.Kingofthenorth 2021-02-24 00:27:43  
I get that capping attack varies... but if you could say having certain buffs would cap attack normally, what would they be? I see people always saying this set with capped attack...but what buffs would put you there (including debuffs)?
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By Asura.Saevel 2021-02-24 07:50:16  
"Capped attack" isn't so much about the buffs but about the debuffs as reducing defense is far better then increasing attack. Removing 50% defense is the same as giving +100% attack, -75% defense is +300% attack, -90% defense is +900% attack and -100% defense crash's the server.

Dia II is -15.2% defense and should always be cast if no RDM present, COR's light shot brings it to 17.96% defense down.

Then we have frailty (unnerfed) with Idris pretty much flattens defense, though more and more content has the monsters resistant to Geomancy. Which is why Armor Break at -25% defense is important to use, or Angon, or Ageha, or one of the many BLU spells. BST has a nice move that gives a potent defense down.
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By Odin.Kingofthenorth 2021-02-24 12:03:25  
Thank you sir
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By Odin.Senaki 2021-02-24 22:21:35  
Spaitin said: »
Odin.Senaki said: »
Which weapons did War use?

Also is 'RR' resolution?
Weapon doesnt matter. Schah was 3 war spamming reso. RR = Raging Rush.

Generally for 1 hour zergs. Drepanum,Dolichenus,Chango,Montante,Raetic,Karambit etc are all fine.

With the new armor set I think we are easily as good at 1 hour zergs as a smn. It is crazy easy now. With the new set you have highest possible MEVA MDB. Capped DT and SB with very high MA and white damage. You get a 3 hit build with 100 DA with sam/fighter rolls.
We are far more durable than the pets and we generally will hit harder at a higher WS frequency with a smaller chance of something messing us up. We are also easier to cure than the pets and remove debuffs. We also replace the tank...
Going 6 man war war geo cor bard whm. With geo doing frail,vex,attunement most content won't land ANY debuffs (well, they might). Can basically ignore spells and TP moves. If the mob is hitting hard. Switch out attunement for wilt. Then you are extremely unlikely to be debuffed and stuff doesn't hit you hard at all.

Go try WOC with 2 war geo cor bard whm. lol.


Side note. Still working on the guide. Changing how to organize the WS again. Lol it is the most annoying part.


Sorry last question.

What level of RP augment were the Wars who did this at for the new Ody gears?
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By Kikomizuhara 2021-02-24 22:46:28  
Took montante + sakpata into a segment farm today. It did decent dmg and was kind of at the top of the parse. Buffs where from cor and brd but I think it needs frailty to shine?

A little underwhelming but I'll keep playing around with it.
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By Spaitin 2021-02-25 10:15:35  
Kikomizuhara said: »
Buffs where from cor and brd but I think it needs frailty to shine?
Yes, and fury as well. if attack isn't capped, unless highly augmented, it isn't going to perform particularly well. Decimation would win in the set up you are using.
Odin.Senaki said: »
What level of RP augment were the Wars who did this at for the new Ody gears?
I assume you are referring to the sakpata. At the time it was 0 rp for any of them. It was right after we bought the gear.
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