The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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2010-06-21
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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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By Izanami 2021-03-24 12:06:44  
SimonSes said: »
Izanami said: »
eliroo said: »
Yeah I guess Metsu could win out over savage blade if you are able to finish of the darkness, but it would be pretty close.

Don't forget you can swap weapons with a simple macro and perform Savage+Shun+Shun for double Light, or Shun+Savage for Light.

Metsu+Metsu+Darkness would not beat Savage+Shun+Light+Shun+Light or even Shun+Savage+Light.

Shun>Savage would only win with Hitaki offhand.
Savage>Shun>Shun cant really be compered to Metsu>Metsu. You would need to compare 2x Savage>Shun>Shun to 3x Metsu>Metsu and Metsu would win then.

Also if no element is resisted, then hybrids would completely destroy any other option for self skillchain anyway.

EDIT: There is also 4 step Radiance involving hybrids. To>Teki>Shun>Shun

I'm not sure why I compared the 3-step to a Metsu+Metsu 2-step, that was pretty dumb of me.

If you're using Savage Blade on Ninja, you'll almost always be using Hitaki off-hand anyway. Ternion would be fine if low accuracy, but at that point just swap to Heishi and use Ten since Ninja sword skill is so low and losing 1000 TP bonus would require TPing longer with the sword per WS.

Even with the 1.5x skillchain damage bonus for the double-light, you're right that 3x(Metsu+Metsu+Darkness) beats 2x(Savage+Shun+Light+Shun+Light), but only by 2k-7k damage (249k vs 242k-247k damage). We should also compare it to 3x(Shun+Savage+Light) = 280k~290k dmg depending on TP lost on swaps. Closing with Savage Blade makes a huge difference and places it well above Metsu spam, even in these capped situations.

I always forget about To and Teki. Finding a situation where you're able to use them over the physical weaponskill options is rare. They would definitely win in those situations, though.
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By SimonSes 2021-03-24 12:10:41  
GlassyCraver said: »
With realistic TP overflow I reckon Naegling would pull ahead significantly too, but I know it is taboo to not assume the exact same TP quantity every time in maths.

Not sure why you think that. Sheets assume TP overflow, even if you set them to try to WS at 1000TP.

For example in numbers above Savage was used at avg 1226~1290 depends on set and offhand.
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By SimonSes 2021-03-24 12:41:57  
Izanami said: »
Even with the 1.5x skillchain damage bonus for the double-light, you're right that 3x(Metsu+Metsu+Darkness) beats 2x(Savage+Shun+Light+Shun+Light), but only by 2k-7k damage (249k vs 242k-247k damage). We should also compare it to 3x(Shun+Savage+Light) = 280k~290k dmg depending on TP lost on swaps. Closing with Savage Blade makes a huge difference and places it well above Metsu spam, even in these capped situations.

Those numbers would drastically change if you factor in current bis sets (even if people will actually obtain them in several months from now XD). Metsu will use 4 pieces of Nyame path B. If you plan to self skillchain you can also use Kunimitsu.
This means on Metsu you would have +47% skillchain bonus, while on Shun, you would only have +12% on first and +15% on second. Matsu would be much more ahead than 2-7k then.

Savage would also use Nyame, but not Kunimitsu. So you will have +40% skillchain bonus. You will also has lower white damage and much lower WS frequency with Naegling/Hitaki and starting from 0TP.

Overall Shun>Savage would probably do 25% more damage, but because of WS frequency, dps advantage would only be like 8%.
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By GlassyCraver 2021-03-24 14:27:33  
I was sticking with the Odyssee discussion, which my post clearly clarifies.

If your numbers are correct, yes, but mobs definitely resist SC damage in Odyssee so maybe magic/hybrid WS too. I heard some people say Leaden Salute on COR can be better than savage on some mobs, maybe only slashing strong stuff like Lamia?

Regarding TP overflow - I know you used 1200-1300 but I am saying more TP overflow than that would be common and helps SB a LOT, but does nothing for Metsu.
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By SimonSes 2021-03-24 15:39:24  
GlassyCraver said: »
Regarding TP overflow - I know you used 1200-1300 but I am saying more TP overflow than that would be common and helps SB a LOT, but does nothing for Metsu.

It would help :Ten too tho. Without Hitaki I would just use Heishi and :Ten.
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By Asura.Kitfoxtrot 2021-03-24 18:01:13  
SimonSes said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Chi/Teki/To with sufficient physical + magical buffs

Guess I will write it again XD

Hybrid WSs dont require magical buffs to completely destroy every other Katana WS. They only need physical buffs and mob that is nautral to magic and element of the hybrid WS. Magical buffs are required if you want to reach 99k damage :) If Blade :Chi is not resisted, NIN is one of the highest DPS in game (especially that Nyame path B exists now and you no longer need crazy DM augments, tho you need some crazy grind instead XD).
^ This- Not sure why the sentiment sentiment seems to be that you need magic debuff. You can get stellar hybrid ws #'s that'll blow other ws out of water w/just trust buffs. Throw in sc'ing w/hybrids and it just gets that much better, all 3 can skill chain if you want to get multistep wild. Attack buffs preferable, any kind of magic debuff is just icing. This is with a good ws set, and now that there's the T4 ody set it makes it that much easier for an entry level set, no more gambling w/oseem.

Stuff like ambu where hybrids are usually trash, if you wanted to force them to work in there, then ya would probably need some kind of magic debuff and I still don't know if they'd work (never tried, guessing mobs have mega mdb). It works on some stuff, and others not. If it doesn't, it's likely a) not enough attack or b) special mob mdb/magic resist etc.

Also naegling ninja doesn't count, shtap it. If I'm doing sb spam might as well come cor, rdm, or basically any other support job that can use it and offer the pt some utility in the way of buffs/debuffs.
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By GlassyCraver 2021-03-24 19:29:42  
Obviously you would be better going on another job than NIN. It was said in the context of "if for whatever reason you are going to Odyssee on NIN in a group". I see no reason to ever take a NIN. Unless by Pianassimo Mamboing them you could pull mob sets and replace a PLD puller/supertank.

Which is probably a mad idea that isn't worth exploring.
 
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-03-24 19:50:35  
Asura.Kitfoxtrot said: »
You can get stellar hybrid ws #'s that'll blow other ws out of water w/just trust buffs.

Which buffs, trusts and which monsters? I'm not completely disagreeing with you that you can do decent numbers with trust buffs, but "blow other WS out of the water with just trust buffs" is an exaggeration.

What are the numbers for each with trust buffs?
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By SimonSes 2021-03-25 05:50:34  
SimonSes said: »
This means on Metsu you would have +42% skillchain bonus, while on Shun, you would only have +12% on first and +15% on second. Matsu would be much more ahead than 2-7k then.

Savage would also use Nyame, but not Kunimitsu. So you will have +35% skillchain bonus. You will also has lower white damage and much lower WS frequency with Naegling/Hitaki and starting from 0TP.

For some reason I tho its 7% skillchain bonus on each Nyame slot. Fixed
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By Asura.Kitfoxtrot 2021-03-25 11:25:38  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Asura.Kitfoxtrot said: »
You can get stellar hybrid ws #'s that'll blow other ws out of water w/just trust buffs.

Which buffs, trusts and which monsters? I'm not completely disagreeing with you that you can do decent numbers with trust buffs, but "blow other WS out of the water with just trust buffs" is an exaggeration.

What are the numbers for each with trust buffs?

All good, given wide scope of content it'd almost be easier to answer which mob/content and associated #'s.

Usual trust set up:
-KoH (prioritizes dia III, pretty important and game changer in itself)
-yoran/any healer, yngas would probably be better with some of his can give attck/mattck. don't have monbe yet.
-captain interrupt your multistep aka Qultada (tho can chi off his burning blade for fusion)
-bards either/or, sometimes will dismiss Qultada if good rolls on so he wont evokers and double brd bc what else going to do
-last spot, depends if tanking or not. trust tank / star syb

Apex as a baseline, in the neighborhood of ~40k @ around 1500tp (heishi r15)
-escha-zi mostly safe to hybrid just about everything there for better #'s
-escha-ru safe on most t1-t2, t3's get weird and usually wont attempt to solo w/trust, some gods & ark probably mid range #'s, at least competitive w/other ws if wanted to multistep. Can't remember on Ark's though and stuff like genboob would be a no-go, I usually bring a friend or 2 to make sure don't time out given price of trigs.
-reisj most t1 should be fair game, but again depends if magic resistant. selkit is one spot i'll def just sb spam
-SR depends on boss & -magic taken
-Ody A, used to farm a lot solo for fun. can pretty much run around 1 shotting stuff there or higher floors end up to > tekki. I don't think trust buffs offer enough juice for B & C.
-Unity NM too diverse to say, some yes, some no.
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By Asura.Kitfoxtrot 2021-03-25 22:54:50  
Here ya go- coincidence ls mate needed help w/t2's tonight so went on nin and smacked em w/hybrids whm+smn rest all trust so not true trust buff only (smn tossed out some haste/ifrit attck) but no where near geeked out w/real buffs (brd/actual cor/geo/etc and no magic buffs. was tanking so no exta wsd dmg from innin and relic head.

Edit- should also mention since tanking wasnt even using berserk so however you want to look at ifrit warcry as only extra buff outside of trust~



I'd say those blow other ws out of the water :p (also when I said that meant other katana ws).

edit: been trying to find/experiment w/anything I can find to make nin good/worth pt slot for a long time lol...which lead me to goofing with hybrids. Where it works, it's pretty stellar. But that's main problem- it doesn't work on all content

2nd edit did AA's later: EV not worth it, and if I did it again wouldnt bother on GK. Mithra missed first hit based on tp return and wiffed 2 other ws as well. needed more acc
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By Izanami 2021-03-25 23:53:20  
Asura.Kitfoxtrot said: »
Here ya go-

Nice. I should really try to use Blade: To and Teki. Could you share your sets for those? I assume the pictures below 50k damage were without multi-attack procs too. I think Savage Blade only does around 25k-30k with Escha buffs and trusts on those targets.

The only Blade: Chi target I remember off-hand is the annoying Dread Spikes Escha Zi'tah t1 Hecteyes Gestalt. Blade: Chi frequently hits capped damage on him with Nagi AM3, or less frequently with Heishi.
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By Asura.Sesshmaru 2021-03-26 05:17:03  
Thank you all for your feedback, Neagling is a beast, I was spaming 30-50k Savage blade on this month ambuscade, without getting hate. the fight including buff time finishes in less then 10min, with Heishi it was more then 15min sadly.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-03-26 12:43:43  
Asura.Kitfoxtrot said: »
I'd say those blow other ws out of the water :p (also when I said that meant other katana ws).

I am aware that hybrid does impressive numbers when applicable, but these SS should be put into context.

Escha/Reisenjima gets a lot of buffs via Vorseals, and Escha T1-3 are basically fodder at this point of gear creep. The WS scale very hard when you stack on multi,wsd,mab,att on top of that. Comparatively, the monsters are weak, which is why Leaden COR destroys the entire zone. Using several years-old monsters as examples of how much stronger hybrid is vs normal nin ws in a clearly favorable scenario is a little biased, no? That is like saying "Judgment WAR blows Chango out of the water" and then show a bunch of pictures of fighting vs skeletons.

On most things relevant to the times/content, NIN does not get such an advantage. When you can use hybrid ws, of course it's the superior option. The problem is when you can use them. Because when people are comparing WS options, we are not talking about using it for Omen trash and the like that you can basically one-shot. We are talking about something relevant in a neutral or common scenario. Like Ambuscade is 100% opposite. Nothing in Gaol. Only certain zones in Dynamis.

I just don't often see too many situations where Hybrid WS always come out ahead like that.
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By Thunderjet 2021-03-26 13:08:44  
Asura.Kitfoxtrot said: »
Thunderjet said: »
Asura.Kitfoxtrot said: »
eliroo said: »
Thunderjet said: »
R15 kannagi is so awesome, :x

That 70 AGI on a melee weapon.

Nice, that'll help hotshot damage

it has 20 Dex, too and blade hi % damage u can hi up to 30k with that with minimial buffs but sure 30k is not so good these days, outside of that it can be the best tanking weapon with Offhand Odyessy katana ambuscade cape with evasion magic evasion Earring from vagary/ Balder's earring +1 and maligance set, the aftermath is also a plus, its way more optimal than kikkou with many more uses. please dont forget that agility has more uses than just a WS mod for hi

Mind posting your Hi set? curious see what you're wearing for 30k's w/minimal buffs. All jokes about the hot shot stuff aside, my nin is stuck in 20k land for like all ws minus blade: ten w/enough attack, and hybrids where they work, and sb but that doesnt count.
. Il do that on monday iam at work until monday
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By Asura.Kitfoxtrot 2021-03-26 13:26:46  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Asura.Kitfoxtrot said: »
I'd say those blow other ws out of the water :p (also when I said that meant other katana ws).

I am aware that hybrid does impressive numbers when applicable, but these SS should be put into context.

Escha/Reisenjima gets a lot of buffs via Vorseals, and Escha T1-3 are basically fodder at this point of gear creep. The WS scale very hard when you stack on multi,wsd,mab,att on top of that. Comparatively, the monsters are weak, which is why Leaden COR destroys the entire zone. Using several years-old monsters as examples of how much stronger hybrid is vs normal nin ws in a clearly favorable scenario is a little biased, no? That is like saying "Judgment WAR blows Chango out of the water" and then show a bunch of pictures of fighting vs skeletons.

On most things relevant to the times/content, NIN does not get such an advantage. When you can use hybrid ws, of course it's the superior option. The problem is when you can use them. Because when people are comparing WS options, we are not talking about using it for Omen trash and the like that you can basically one-shot. We are talking about something relevant in a neutral or common scenario. Like Ambuscade is 100% opposite. Nothing in Gaol. Only certain zones in Dynamis.

I just don't often see too many situations where Hybrid WS always come out ahead like that.

No. The context was hybrids w/trust buffs.

Your comment was:
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Asura.Kitfoxtrot said: »
You can get stellar hybrid ws #'s that'll blow other ws out of water w/just trust buffs.

Which buffs, trusts and which monsters? I'm not completely disagreeing with you that you can do decent numbers with trust buffs, but "blow other WS out of the water with just trust buffs" is an exaggeration.

What are the numbers for each with trust buffs?

You said it was an exaggeration that hybrids can "blow other ws out of the water with just trust buffs". It's not.

The context was with trust buffs. This is content you do w/trust. It doesn't make sense to allude to high-level content that you likely wouldn't use trust on. So, the SS are in context.

I explained Ody. Also given we need segments now, I wouldn't farm that solo w/trust. You'd get more w/real people.

You mentioned Dynamis- Why would I do Dynamis w/trust?

Already said they're trash in Ambu, but again I wouldn't do ambu with trust outside of trying to get a weekly on VE. It's also less Gallantry with trust.

Gaol- sure, I did some T1's and T2 solo but yea, again, not something I'd want to do with trust. Especially with the sting of a potential loss and segments on the line.

Already said hybrids don't work everywhere. I'm not making any wild claims. I said "You can get stellar hybrid ws #'s that'll blow other ws out of water w/just trust buffs." And...*drum roll* you can.
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By GlassyCraver 2021-03-26 15:55:55  
Asura.Sesshmaru said: »
Thank you all for your feedback, Neagling is a beast, I was spaming 30-50k Savage blade on this month ambuscade, without getting hate. the fight including buff time finishes in less then 10min, with Heishi it was more then 15min sadly.
How would 1 DD changing jobs cut it down by 5 mins?
Why would you go NIN anyway if you wanted to be fastest?

Tank BRD WHM COR DD DD should clear it in about 8 minutes assuming no deaths.
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By Asura.Sesshmaru 2021-03-27 00:44:32  
I'm testing out Nin On this month ambuscade. My setup is RDM BRD COR WHM TANK NIN. I compared the duration of the fight between heishi and Neagling, Thank you.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Avengers 2021-03-27 01:03:10  
Silly question, other than disabling and not switching out ammo, is there a way to stop blinking whenever my ammo slot changes? I see it's a rather old bug, but wasn't sure if a work around was ever found.
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By Foxfire 2021-03-27 01:20:52  
with addons, probably. since you're switching to/from an actual weapon you use via daken, it's going to blink regardless under normal circumstances, i think.
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By Asura.Sesshmaru 2021-03-27 03:57:34  
dress up fix it, //du blinking self always on
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By Bismarck.Gippali 2021-03-27 13:18:08  
Asura.Sesshmaru said: »
I'm testing out Nin On this month ambuscade. My setup is RDM BRD COR WHM TANK NIN. I compared the duration of the fight between heishi and Neagling, Thank you.

Are all your dps using SB? Might want the RDM to move to CDC and COR stay on Savage. CDC > Ten makes darkness and Ten > Savage makes Frag. Seems silly to give up all that extra SC dmg. My Tens are anywhere from 30-40k followed by mirrored darkness. Worth giving it a shot if you dont want to use that garbage SB stuff.
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By GlassyCraver 2021-03-27 15:18:10  
I don't see the point in taking a RDM when COR can dispel Sigh with Dark Shot

WHM/RDM can Distract 1 too
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By Ragnarok.Bepe 2021-03-27 18:44:53  
Quick question. I was looking at the Mpaca sets and Kendasuba sets, and is it worth buying Kendasuba +1 now that Mpaca is out? It looks like there is a 1% triple attack difference on each pieces favoring Kendasuba and kendasuba has more magic evasion, but mpeca has more evasion and physical damage taken-? Now I understand 5% triple attack is nothing to laugh at, but is there any other way Kendasuba shines over Mpeca that I might be missing?
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By Trillium 2021-03-27 18:54:02  
I'd say it is situational. Looking at it from more of mnk perspective, but I will say I have moved Mpaca to my default set as I am using it more where physical damage is going to be an issue, as otherwise I would just tank on my run. For NIN, I am not sure the physical damage taken is as big a deal with shadows, though the evasion is nice.

I think the counter plus killer effects were the kicker for me on mnk as a spharai holder. It almost gets me to capped counter without counter stance. As I already had Ken, not sure I would pick Mpaca up just for Nin... other things to spend inventory and gil on, but I will leave it to better Nins to opine on Nin specifically, as I am just a newbie metsu nin lol.
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By Sylph.Reain 2021-03-27 19:10:55  
Kenda has ranged accuracy for Daken TP.
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By Ragnarok.Bepe 2021-03-27 19:29:57  
Oh! Mpaca has no ranged accuracy! Thank you for pointing that out!
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-03-27 20:06:44  
Sylph.Reain said: »
Kenda has ranged accuracy for Daken TP.

Kenda still has subtle blow. Mpaca legs have 5 II. With auspice, you only need body/head, chirich +1 pieces to cap Sb. You also get better magic evasion in Kenda, so it's worth keeping a few pieces for those hybrid builds. I sold my feet but kept my other pieces.

Edit: sorry meant without auspice (due natural SB)
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By Asura.Sesshmaru 2021-03-28 00:01:41  
share with us a Screenshot of this month Ambu with 40k Blade ten and if u do please share ur ws set, Thank you.
I get rdm for distract and dispel. most cors don't use quick draw nowadays and much better to focus on dps, dispel cd is shorter.
I dont see Death penalty cor complain to other cors that use savage blade, why the hate in this section against sword? this is not wow or ffxiv each job not limited to one weapon, and that what make ffxi job system fun.
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