Oh ok. Because that would be silly. I'm still not sure why the weapon additional effect is even paralyze to begin with, when you already have two other sources (one being extremely potent) on ninja. Seems like a truly wasted additional effect that needs to be changed.
Someone submit a bug report and ask them to adjust it to -25% defense down effect.
The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
Mandau too plzkthx
The poison is not only totally useless it's potentially harmful lol.
The poison is not only totally useless it's potentially harmful lol.
tentakelspeer said: »
Does Nagi Emnity work offhand? Has it been tested? If not, how can I test it? Does it work in general?
I dunno I was tanking Omen last week, and hate was strange, when I switched to R17 Fudo(mainhand - don't remember the exact Rank but it was on par with Nagi Emnity)and casting Utsu the Boss turned asap.
I dunno I was tanking Omen last week, and hate was strange, when I switched to R17 Fudo(mainhand - don't remember the exact Rank but it was on par with Nagi Emnity)and casting Utsu the Boss turned asap.
Mho said no, tested and Nagi enm+ doesn't work offhand.
With that being the case, yeah, Fudo C mainhand seems like the best bet for tanking. Plenty of Enmity to where your Yonin Utsu casts will generate a lot of hate (variable depending on # of shadows, but potentially more Enm than Nagi), and you can cast more often with the substantial recast reduction. I don't really have any issues keeping hate with my Fudo (currently rank 18 or 19) and Yonin up.
For offhand, once we eliminate Nagi, lately I tend to prefer offhand Shigi for tanking. Even with the Enm-10, I haven't run into problems keeping hate. And the recast reduction is valuable for survival (much easier to go San>San, and keep Migawari recast low as well) AND more frequent Utsu casting helping to make up for lower per-action enmity. Shuhansadamune's prob my next tanking choice as a good all-around offhand, though you could also find other niche tanking offhands (Tancho+1 for SIRD-35%, Raicho+1 for MDT-7%, etc.)
Nagi relegated to BOOM macro.
If on one hand I can see Enmity-10 not being a huge issues, it still seems stupid to me to offhand that if you're purposedly trying to tank with a Fudo mainhand D:
Why not use Fudo offhand? Lots of acc, and the Shadows>Attack thing works in offhand too if I recall?
Would be a small bonus to the Damage>enmity generation, you would avoid Enmity-10 and you would get slightly more acc than Shigi.
Without that I'd probably use the Diabolos' ugly Katana, but that's just me.
Edit:
Or Tancho+1 yeah, forgot about that. SIRD could be nice in making the midcast sets better and still reach 102% SIRD?
Why not use Fudo offhand? Lots of acc, and the Shadows>Attack thing works in offhand too if I recall?
Would be a small bonus to the Damage>enmity generation, you would avoid Enmity-10 and you would get slightly more acc than Shigi.
Without that I'd probably use the Diabolos' ugly Katana, but that's just me.
Edit:
Or Tancho+1 yeah, forgot about that. SIRD could be nice in making the midcast sets better and still reach 102% SIRD?
Asura.Sechs said: »
If on one hand I can see Enmity-10 not being a huge issues, it still seems stupid to me to offhand that if you're purposedly trying to tank with a Fudo mainhand D:
Enmity -10 really isn't that big of a concern with Yonin up and regular shadow casting (and otherwise decent Enmity macro gear for your Utsu casts and subjob enmity generation stuff like a Provoke or whatever). Keeping hate is honestly the least of my tanking worries when I'm using Fudo/Yonin, even with Shigi offhand. It's as easy for me to keep hate on a single target (generally all I want to hold when blink tanking) with NIN using Fudo C mainhand & Yonin up as it is on my RUN.
EDIT: see below posts
And of course, enmity is only one part of tanking... there's also survival. Shigi helping to keep shadows rolling to maintain a nice steady stream of hate is all well and good, but blink tanking anything serious absolutely requires keeping safe behind shadows. The Utsu/Miga timer reduction from both Fudo C mainhand and Shigi offhand is a ridiculous blessing in keeping recast really low and being able to reapply San shadows practically at will. Your real threats come from moves that wipe all shadows and are then followed up with a big attack, and while NIN can never be fully safe against those, it's so much nicer to have San more often at the ready due to your mainhand and offhand both shaving several seconds off of recast times.
And hey, Shigi's DT-5% never hurts as a bonus for tanky stuff.
Quote:
Why not use Fudo offhand? Lots of acc, and the Shadows>Attack thing works in offhand too if I recall?
For tanking? You wouldn't use Fudo offhand because the C path augments only work when the weapon is mainhanded. Fudo BASE stats (i.e., the stuff that still works when offhanded) don't do anything particularly helpful for tanking other than maybe a bit more offensive power. But enmity from increased melee damage is fairly insignificant compared to the massive amount from Yonin Utsu casting; changing offhand to generate a bit more offense really isn't going to affect your tanking effectiveness in a meaningful way.
I wasn't talking about the Path: C augment, I'm aware that only works MH. I was comparing the other stats of Fudo OH with Shigi.
Fudo offers slightly more Acc, more Racc, more Att/Ratt, more damage (lulz) and the attack thing which is very marginal for both melee time (hardly any when you're spamming Utsusemi) and WSs.
I agree you hardly feel it, but it's a nice icing on the cake?
But you clarified that you're equipping Shigi mostly for the Ninjutsu Recast -3.
Are there some tests about how that stat works? It's present on other gear as well, like Mujin Mantle.
Is it applied before Haste/Fastcast calculations? Is there a cap?
If you're already at the 80% reduction, would "Ninjutsu recast - X seconds" still take effect allowing you to break the cap, or does it still fall under the same cap?
Questions like these.
I seem to recall tests on Mujin Mantle were showing kinda disappointing results, but that's "only" -1, not -3
Btw using Shuhansadamune instead of Shigi would de facto grant you 20 more enmity. I can understand how "enmity is not an issue", but since you're likely not reaching the 100 enmity cap, I wouldn't disregard a difference of 20 enmity, sounds like something important.
Also Shuhansadamune has FC+5%. I'm not sure how this compares to -3 seconds, but supposing you're not reaching the 80% reduction already, that 5% FC might be somewhat compareable/close to Shigi's -3 seconds.
Again: would love to see some detailed tests. We know very well how FC works so we can get a pretty clear idea of the impact Shuhansadamune would have, on the other hand there's very little tests on Shigi's stat...
Fudo offers slightly more Acc, more Racc, more Att/Ratt, more damage (lulz) and the attack thing which is very marginal for both melee time (hardly any when you're spamming Utsusemi) and WSs.
I agree you hardly feel it, but it's a nice icing on the cake?
But you clarified that you're equipping Shigi mostly for the Ninjutsu Recast -3.
Are there some tests about how that stat works? It's present on other gear as well, like Mujin Mantle.
Is it applied before Haste/Fastcast calculations? Is there a cap?
If you're already at the 80% reduction, would "Ninjutsu recast - X seconds" still take effect allowing you to break the cap, or does it still fall under the same cap?
Questions like these.
I seem to recall tests on Mujin Mantle were showing kinda disappointing results, but that's "only" -1, not -3
Btw using Shuhansadamune instead of Shigi would de facto grant you 20 more enmity. I can understand how "enmity is not an issue", but since you're likely not reaching the 100 enmity cap, I wouldn't disregard a difference of 20 enmity, sounds like something important.
Also Shuhansadamune has FC+5%. I'm not sure how this compares to -3 seconds, but supposing you're not reaching the 80% reduction already, that 5% FC might be somewhat compareable/close to Shigi's -3 seconds.
Again: would love to see some detailed tests. We know very well how FC works so we can get a pretty clear idea of the impact Shuhansadamune would have, on the other hand there's very little tests on Shigi's stat...
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Oh damn... yeah, I just did some very quick testing before going to sleep, and your suspicions seem correct! With capped haste/FC sets, Shigi has little to no impact (I'm eyeballing recast timers for a quick test, so can't get super accurate fractions of a second - but it's obviously a minimal change). With no haste and casting in no FC gear, Shigi does gets the benefit. Must not break the cap, I made the mistake (cardinal sin?) of assuming the seemingly obvious item description meant -3 seconds regardless.
FWIW, Fudo Masamune C's recast reduction DOES get fully applied, regardless of haste/FC amount. Capped magical haste & FC set, and my R19 Fudo (-19% ninjutsu recast) is taking ~15sec San recasts down to ~12sec.
In that case... yup, looks like Shuhansadamune all the way as your general purpose tanking focused offhand (assuming adequate buffs/FC gear). Stuff like Tancho+1 for SIRD as an alternative/situational choice, or just keep whatever offensive katana in offhand if you're actively meleeing and care about the NIN's DPS.
I still stand by the position that a swing of 10~20 enmity on one gear piece probably isn't as big of a deal as a practical matter as people might think, considering the potency of Yonin when frequently casting Utsusemi, combined with using an otherwise good enmity set (which is probably getting you somewhere in the neighborhood of Enm+65~70 in gear from non-weapon slots). But hey, might as well stack Enm where you can in offhand weapon slots too, and Shuhan does has a nice chunk of it along with an array of other helpful tanking stats (FC, Counter, Eva, PDT).
FWIW, Fudo Masamune C's recast reduction DOES get fully applied, regardless of haste/FC amount. Capped magical haste & FC set, and my R19 Fudo (-19% ninjutsu recast) is taking ~15sec San recasts down to ~12sec.
In that case... yup, looks like Shuhansadamune all the way as your general purpose tanking focused offhand (assuming adequate buffs/FC gear). Stuff like Tancho+1 for SIRD as an alternative/situational choice, or just keep whatever offensive katana in offhand if you're actively meleeing and care about the NIN's DPS.
I still stand by the position that a swing of 10~20 enmity on one gear piece probably isn't as big of a deal as a practical matter as people might think, considering the potency of Yonin when frequently casting Utsusemi, combined with using an otherwise good enmity set (which is probably getting you somewhere in the neighborhood of Enm+65~70 in gear from non-weapon slots). But hey, might as well stack Enm where you can in offhand weapon slots too, and Shuhan does has a nice chunk of it along with an array of other helpful tanking stats (FC, Counter, Eva, PDT).
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Oh damn... yeah, I just did some very quick testing before going to sleep, and your suspicions seem correct! With capped haste/FC sets, Shigi has little to no impact (I'm eyeballing recast timers for a quick test, so can't get super accurate fractions of a second - but it's obviously a minimal change).
I too was expecting a -1 second reduction applied at the end of the calculation, but clearly that would've been too good and SE doesn't like to give us too many candies. RIGHT SE?!? :-P
Oh yeah, Shuhan has Counter as well. Wonder if that adds up to Yonin's counter from Empy legs. Which atm are not realistically useable for tanking but, come the +3 reforge, who knows? We'll see I guess.
On a hunch I agree with you Shuhan and Tancho+1, for different reasons, look like really nice options for pure tanking.
At work now and not counting recast timers, but to throw another tanking point into the discussion mix...
I'm also interested in what gear people are tanking in while behind shadows. Do you tend to add turtle DT- stuff? Meva focus? Full on offensive TP gear? Some sort of hybrid set?
Lately I am settling into defaulting to 5/5 Kendatsuba +1 for the awesome Meva, but still retaining excellent DD stats. Accessories are a bit more situational, but I'll go DT- or Meva stuff depending on how much of a threat the target is (and what kinds of attacks it has), or offensive stuff if my tanking role is less crucial to my group.
For instance, when I'm fighting something difficult with the potential to hit me with strong magical AoEs, something like:
ItemSet 365268
Obviously, the earrings/rings/belt are the key places to adjust sets to balance as you see fit versus DT-/offense/Meva
I'm also interested in what gear people are tanking in while behind shadows. Do you tend to add turtle DT- stuff? Meva focus? Full on offensive TP gear? Some sort of hybrid set?
Lately I am settling into defaulting to 5/5 Kendatsuba +1 for the awesome Meva, but still retaining excellent DD stats. Accessories are a bit more situational, but I'll go DT- or Meva stuff depending on how much of a threat the target is (and what kinds of attacks it has), or offensive stuff if my tanking role is less crucial to my group.
For instance, when I'm fighting something difficult with the potential to hit me with strong magical AoEs, something like:
ItemSet 365268
Obviously, the earrings/rings/belt are the key places to adjust sets to balance as you see fit versus DT-/offense/Meva
As people are talking about testings, I've finally finished those about Yonin. Sorry for making you wait Sechs.
That's it, except for the Yonin-Utsu VE, everything was ok on my earlier testings. I was a bit insecure because I did them in while I was recovering from a kidney stone (!) and VE testings are really a pain. I guess everything is ok now.
Yonin starts with Enmity +29 and finishes with Enmity +10. It goes the same way as its accuracy penalty, decaying 1 point each 15 seconds.
With Yonin active, all Utsusemi changes from 0 CE/ 160 VE to 160 CE/ 480 VE and it DOESN'T decay. Those are base values, before any modifiers including Yonin's own Enmity+
They also generate the same enmity if you have Copy Image buff active and even if you cast a weaker tier of Utsusemi on top of a stronger one (like casting Ichi over San).
As expected, Yonin Enmity+ adds to other sources of Enmity+ like gear or Sentinel.
That's it, except for the Yonin-Utsu VE, everything was ok on my earlier testings. I was a bit insecure because I did them in while I was recovering from a kidney stone (!) and VE testings are really a pain. I guess everything is ok now.
[+]
Awesome findings! Someone needs to put these on BG-Wiki.
Thanks Alex.
That's really fantastic <3
Thanks Alex.
That's really fantastic <3
[+]
Bahamut.Alexcennah said: »
They also generate the same enmity if you have Copy Image buff active and even if you cast a weaker tier of Utsusemi on top of a stronger one (like casting Ichi over San).
Oh wow, that one is really fantastic. Since San and Ni are usually all you ever need to tank (anything constantly wiping ALL of San Ni Ichi is probably a pretty lousy candidate for blink tanking), Ichi can really get some great use solely as a hate tool, to be used when you’re otherwise safe. And even better with Fudo (up to enm+10 per shadow) since you can often cast that Ichi with a lot of shadows up for a ton of extra enmity.
Thanks a ton for the testing!!! Out of curiosity, what was your methdology?
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Bahamut.Alexcennah said: »
With Yonin active, all Utsusemi changes from 0 CE/ 160 VE to 160 CE/ 480 VE and it DOESN'T decay(!)
Also, holy ***. Doesn’t decay?? That explains a lot about situations I didn’t quite understand where I have held back as a backup for a co-tank like a PLD, but I get the mob turning to me despite having just been standing around taking no enmity generating actions in several minutes, after initally getting on the hate list and casting a few Utsus (that were never subject to any VE decay).
I think what he means is the values of Utsusemi's CE/VE generation doesn't decay over the life of Yonin.
Therefore a 3 minute old Yonin will still create 160/480 Base Utsu's as would a 30 second old Yonin.
VE would still decay as normal.
Correct me if I'm wrong Alexcennah.
Therefore a 3 minute old Yonin will still create 160/480 Base Utsu's as would a 30 second old Yonin.
VE would still decay as normal.
Correct me if I'm wrong Alexcennah.
Are you sure Yonin doesn't start at +30 enmity? +29's a weird number and +30 came from a pretty credible tester.
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Out of curiosity, what was your methdology?
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Also, holy ***. Doesn’t decay??
Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
I think what he means is the values of Utsusemi's CE/VE generation doesn't decay over the life of Yonin.
Siren.Kyte said: »
Are you sure Yonin doesn't start at +30 enmity? +29's a weird number and +30 came from a pretty credible tester.
Actually this +29 number isn't as strange as it sounds, as probably it starts with +30 then almost immediately decays to +29 pretty much like any JA that is exactly x:00 long (like Yonin itself, after using it you can see its 5m countdown almost immediately dropping to 4m). As proof, Yonin's accuracy penalty shows up in /checkparam and you can see that it is really -30 for a split second at start then immediately drops to -29. I have no reasons to believe that the Enmity bonus isn't the same.
Here are the exact Yonin accuracy penalty numbers for its entire 5 minutes duration and they all line up perfectly all the way:
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Unless you're att capped, I think att is somewhat relevant for Ku, so maybe you might want att at least in a couple of slots?
Wsdmg over dex for metsu? my numbers are low
Whats your set look like and whats your attack @? Need something to go off of
MOAR wsd is the universal answer for every single hit ws
I get confused when anyone says they do low numbers with anything with nothing for anyone to go off of. Could at least show what you mean by low numbers and maybe post a gearset of what you're using.
[+]
ItemSet 365329
Kikoku - R15
Kanaria - str15 att7 ws3 (just using my ten offhand atm)
Herculean vest - acc12 att12 ws8 (no dex)
Herculean gloves - acc21 att5 ws9 (no dex)
Herculean boots - acc24 att17 ws6 (no dex)
Andartia - 20dex acc30 att20 da10 dt5 (my tp cape atm)
Quetz dragon metsu were 12k~ with bog frailty, dia3, 11 chaos (cor savage blade 20k~)
Neak metsu were 18k-21k with bolster frailty, dia3, 11 chaos (cor savage blade 35-37k)
Jse neck is not something i can do atm but i plan to, cape i can do next month amb, kanaria i can dex/ws, the lack of extra dex on herculean drag me down? even with extra wsdmg?
Am i expecting too much from metsu and these numbers are ok-ish?
Kikoku - R15
Kanaria - str15 att7 ws3 (just using my ten offhand atm)
Herculean vest - acc12 att12 ws8 (no dex)
Herculean gloves - acc21 att5 ws9 (no dex)
Herculean boots - acc24 att17 ws6 (no dex)
Andartia - 20dex acc30 att20 da10 dt5 (my tp cape atm)
Quetz dragon metsu were 12k~ with bog frailty, dia3, 11 chaos (cor savage blade 20k~)
Neak metsu were 18k-21k with bolster frailty, dia3, 11 chaos (cor savage blade 35-37k)
Jse neck is not something i can do atm but i plan to, cape i can do next month amb, kanaria i can dex/ws, the lack of extra dex on herculean drag me down? even with extra wsdmg?
Am i expecting too much from metsu and these numbers are ok-ish?
Other than the back and neck your set and augs are fine (screw you for getting decent DM augs lol). Idk if you already do this but get 2 Lugra Earrings for night. You can also look at using Mache +1 instead of 1 or both your earrings. I personally use AF2+3 legs for the WS dmg but haven't really cared too much to test the difference in the 2. You probably are expecting too much from Metsu if you're comparing it to Savage Blade, Metsu's strength doesn't so much come from it's numbers itself but the fact that it can light and darkness with so many WS' imo. Also, the fact that you gain so much attack from Kikoku + AM. If you're purely looking for WS dmg numbers you'd be better off using Ten.
[+]
geigei said: »
ItemSet 365329
Kikoku - R15
Kanaria - str15 att7 ws3 (just using my ten offhand atm)
Herculean vest - acc12 att12 ws8 (no dex)
Herculean gloves - acc21 att5 ws9 (no dex)
Herculean boots - acc24 att17 ws6 (no dex)
Andartia - 20dex acc30 att20 da10 dt5 (my tp cape atm)
Quetz dragon metsu were 12k~ with bog frailty, dia3, 11 chaos (cor savage blade 20k~)
Neak metsu were 18k-21k with bolster frailty, dia3, 11 chaos (cor savage blade 35-37k)
Jse neck is not something i can do atm but i plan to, cape i can do next month amb, kanaria i can dex/ws, the lack of extra dex on herculean drag me down? even with extra wsdmg?
Am i expecting too much from metsu and these numbers are ok-ish?
Kikoku - R15
Kanaria - str15 att7 ws3 (just using my ten offhand atm)
Herculean vest - acc12 att12 ws8 (no dex)
Herculean gloves - acc21 att5 ws9 (no dex)
Herculean boots - acc24 att17 ws6 (no dex)
Andartia - 20dex acc30 att20 da10 dt5 (my tp cape atm)
Quetz dragon metsu were 12k~ with bog frailty, dia3, 11 chaos (cor savage blade 20k~)
Neak metsu were 18k-21k with bolster frailty, dia3, 11 chaos (cor savage blade 35-37k)
Jse neck is not something i can do atm but i plan to, cape i can do next month amb, kanaria i can dex/ws, the lack of extra dex on herculean drag me down? even with extra wsdmg?
Am i expecting too much from metsu and these numbers are ok-ish?
~22400 is what I'm getting in my sheet as avg for Metsu with perfect herc non DM augments, but I totally forgot what offhand I was using for those calculations. This is also with max pdif with jse+2 neck. Relic+3 legs are better than Jokushu.
[+]
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