The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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2010-06-21
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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-06 16:09:19  
From Jinpu discussion few months back:

Ruaumoko said: »
Saevel and I just finished a good hour's worth of testing on Jinpu. We suspect that, somehow, the WSD is being applied twice; once on the first hit and then again on the magic component of it. We'd like someone to do some even thorough testing to confirm or debunk this, if it's even possible.

A few more observations.

  • Sets with a mixture of STR, WSD and MaB are the way to go here. We did exhaustive testing with pure STR and WSD versus MaB and the results were consistently better with an amalgamation of both.

  • Fotia Belt and Gorget are returning some surprisingly good results.

  • Hachirin-no-Obi with Windstorm I (or better II) does affect Jinpu's damage. Recommend using it over Fotia Belt when you have the effect up.

  • Jinpu responds EXTREMELY WELL, like crazy well, to Fighter's Roll (Double Attack). If you have a Geomancer flooring the target's physical defense consider using Samurai/Fighters for your COR rolls. We went from seeing occasional 60-70k Jinpu to very frequent 60-70k Jinpu which, compared against the 35-40k low-end clearly indicated a Double Attack proc. 99999 Jinpu was clearly a Quad. Attack proc from Niqmaddu Ring since Saevel's set didn't have Triple Attack in it.

  • On that note, can someone with an AG Koga do a side-by-side comparison? TP Bonus from the Dojikiri might put it on equal footing but AM3 on Koga could... could tip the scales in its favor.

  • Stacking Malaise and Frailty does evil ***to Jinpu. It's very similar to Flaming Crush in that regard.


Why wouldn't Seething+1 beat Pemphredo?
Changed to belt/torque to test a bit more. Dont have a /sch friend for storms or I'd try that too.
+3 mochizuki head has a whopping 61 mab, 31str, 32int, and some att/acc sprinkled in there. I'm using the +2 relic head. Personally I don't have the +3 af hat, so I can't compare the two +3s, but I just imaged the huge jump in MAB would be better than the 5 WSD with lower str, no attack or acc.
I guess I could try Arvina Ringlet+1, but why would that beat INT and the same MAB (INT is a modifier)?
 Carbuncle.Lunatone
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-03-06 16:13:51  
I forgot all about AF+3 hat lol I'll redo tests w/ it actually on
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-03-06 16:46:23  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Why wouldn't Seething+1 beat Pemphredo?

Ah, you're right. Just overlooked it, I agree that Seething+1 should be better.

Quote:
+3 mochizuki head has a whopping 61 mab, 31str, 32int, and some att/acc sprinkled in there. I'm using the +2 relic head. Personally I don't have the +3 af hat, so I can't compare the two +3s, but I just imaged the huge jump in MAB would be better than the 5 WSD with lower str, no attack or acc.

AF+3 isn't WSD+5, it's WSD+10.. and that's pretty much why you'd pick it, along with solid STR/INT. Agreed that if you only have AF+2 that shouldn't be worth using over Relic +2/+3 or a good Herc Helm. Hachiya+3 does lack Acc/Atk and that can make a difference when uncapped... but I'm at somewhat of a loss on how to account for that in a hybrid WS as a rule of thumb, since the magical part can't miss anyway.

At any rate, Mochizuki +2/+3 should be pretty good too, certainly among the top options. I'd guess Mochi+3 is probably best, but YMMV on whether it's worth the massive expense. Mochi+2 is quite similar to my Herc Helm (MAB+56/STR+22/INT+20 on my Helm versus MAB+54/STR+26/INT+27) - and I don't think I was getting my Herc beating AF+3 back when I checked it out, but I'm going on memory from months ago.

Quote:
I guess I could try Arvina Ringlet+1, but why would that beat INT and the same MAB (INT is a modifier)?

I was suggesting it over the Ilabrat Ring that Luna had in the posted set. But I spaced there for a minute, and was acting like the AGI on Arvina+1 was a WS mod (it's not, I'm just used to using the ring for COR and thinking yay Leaden/Wildfire AGI mod).

So... Dingir/Acumen probably? Unless you have Karieyh +1, in which case that should replace Acumen. Am I missing another ring?

EDIT: Oh, Shiva+1. Yeah. That. Then Acumen > Fenrir +1 > Arvina+1 as your alternatives.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-06 18:01:13  
Could never get lucky enough with herc augments but your helm is pretty amazing. I ended up making the mask because I had all the materials and I am committed to improving my nuking set. Despite what others think of ninja nuking, I understand it's niche, but it's another tool in the toolbox for Ninja. I'll probably+3 it despite the price because it's bis nuking regardless.

In any case, when I get+3 af mask I can test the two out much better.
 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2018-03-07 19:57:27  
So I bought a 4th NIN cape, and realized I kinda don't need it? I have a DEX/DA cape for TP/Shun, a STR/WSD cape for Ten and a FC cape. I'm thinking I'll make the 4th cape for these hybrid WS people are talking about. So STR/MACC/MAB/WSD for Chi/To?
 Carbuncle.Lunatone
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-03-07 20:21:29  
enmity is always nice.
I did a Metsu, Hi, DA/shun, fc, and enmity as my last

imo the amount of buffs we'd need to be stupid numbers arent worth it when with just brd and geo debuffs we can reach 16k+ the physical ws
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-07 20:33:55  
I did nuking cape for my 4th. If you're not a caster, you can just use your ten cape for cho. An enmity cape works too.
 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2018-03-07 20:40:17  
What are solid NIN enmity tools? I've been running WAR sub (so I can defender and make a SC for 30k Omen MB's, mostly) so there's Provoke, but does the job have much else aside from damage and +enmity JA/spells to keep hate? Not sure I see a ton of use for enmity, but if the hybrid WS thing is just niche giggles that probably is the best thing for my 4th cape. Though guess I could make a nuking cape instead.
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-03-07 20:42:06  
Yeah you've got a point, alot of the times when im tanking in omen and dyna i'll /run and macro it for all runes, flash val/pflug and my normal casting mode is enmity + macc for debuffs, also Issefuiakvl cant type it the parry move.
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2018-03-07 20:43:45  
If people actually run NIN/RUN I am all about that life. Been THF/RUN since Adoulin came out. But I don't have JP and my gear is iffy and I'm often in the off party if doing anything so lack of buffs has me using /WAR for now.
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-03-07 20:47:39  
I dont see many nin in general anyway so idk how much others like it but its def my go to when tanking and the damage isnt super bad as long as youre not using same element runes to the mob. Only issue is mp can be a pain in the *** in long fights but when I'm tanking I got lucky w/ a refresh +2 kanaria so I just use it to help and if its bad swap into m.harness from incursion for refrsh +4
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-07 20:51:00  
NIN has Gekka + Provoke, with warcry for enmity. Certainly, you can use Reiki back if you wanted enmity I guess, so it's not the highest priority. I just said nuking since it's one of the only things NIN can do that's kind of fun.
 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2018-03-07 20:56:20  
Since my more main jobs are COR and RUN I have a decent MAB set that'll overlap with NIN, so I think I'll make a nuking cape. INT/MAB/MACC it is.
[+]
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2018-03-07 21:07:29  
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
What are solid NIN enmity tools? I've been running WAR sub (so I can defender and make a SC for 30k Omen MB's, mostly) so there's Provoke, but does the job have much else aside from damage and +enmity JA/spells to keep hate? Not sure I see a ton of use for enmity, but if the hybrid WS thing is just niche giggles that probably is the best thing for my 4th cape. Though guess I could make a nuking cape instead.

I tanked this month's Ambuscade using /RUN (so Flash, Pflug, and Vallation) supplemented with Yonin/Gekka and the enmity from Utsusemi, with some of the enfeebles occasionally mixed in.

I would still probably recommend the nuking cape as a fourth, though (Reiki cloak is already fine for enmity). A hybrid WS cape is (more or less) identical to a Ten cape and the only other real option would be a Hi cape.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-07 21:12:38  
I wanted to still try a 3 ninjas ambuscade this month, just powerering through boil with Migawari. Never happened :(
 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2018-03-07 21:16:53  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
I wanted to still try a 3 ninjas ambuscade this month, just powerering through boil with Migawari. Never happened :(

I'd offer to come but my NIN is still quite lacking. I did manage to tank/DD the Gorger after my RUN and DRK teammates died last night, though. I'm at 32 JP and 180~ ninjutsu skill still, lol.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-07 21:20:56  
I'm just shy over 500 JP. NIN definitely shines on Craver, though. Nothing he can do, besides Murk, wipes shadows. I ended up taking very little damage vs him the other day. Sadly, the omen bosses pretty much wreck NIN, so I use Migawari for interference spam, which does help out quite a lot. I managed to semi-tank KIN using subtle blow, gekka, and just rotating shadows and Tens on a run a few weeks back when the PLD got frozen terror. The only thing that sucks is the tp moves wipe shadows, so you have to choose a good DT set in time to mitigate damage. Still not a horrible second option as a tank, just gets abused without support.
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By Siren.Kyte 2018-03-07 21:30:34  
Ninja does fine as a more traditional tank (i.e. using JAs/spells for enmity rather than damage) on Fu if you do it with rangers or pets. I would expect it to perform decently on Kei as well.
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-03-07 21:33:00  
Everytime I'vehad to tank omen on nin, the times I forget to /run I wish I had ;; and yeah its rough with minimal support, alot of times ive had to just suck it up w/ shadow times down and just turtle
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-07 21:39:48  
Thanks for sharing. I havent done /run once, but I will now. Think I've asked this before: can NIN eat bravado with Migawari? If not, can RR and i guess Mijin for full hp no weak.

Always been afraid to try to tank an omen boss on NIN and possibly wipe everyone's run. Maybe I'll try it with a backup PLD in case I fail, the run isn't over.
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By Siren.Kyte 2018-03-07 21:47:37  
Migawari doesn't work on that or Fullers.
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 Carbuncle.Lunatone
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-03-07 21:52:03  
Fullers I just have to swap to my PDT/HP set and cureskin myself to live through it but I've heard of some people outrunning it since know its coming up etc
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-07 21:55:52  
SE dropped the ball on making NIN good at one thing. So sad.
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-03-07 22:06:17  
I think it's still really versatile but it feels like where the game is right now it doesnt matter if you can be okay at alot of things, better to be extremely good at dealing damage, tanking, nuking etc.
 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2018-03-07 22:16:57  
Carbuncle.Lunatone said: »
I think it's still really versatile but it feels like where the game is right now it doesnt matter if you can be okay at alot of things, better to be extremely good at dealing damage, tanking, nuking etc.

That's almost always how MMO's work.
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By Carbuncle.Lunatone 2018-03-07 22:36:57  
I JUST WANT TO ALWAYS BE USEFUL!
But I dont know many other MMOS that actually give you different job/class choices that arent for the most part the exact same :< never played WoW but atleast in 14 it doesnt matter what job you pick youre either dps healing or tanking and at the end of the day it doesnt really matter what combination you pick.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-03-07 22:55:00  
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
I wanted to still try a 3 ninjas ambuscade this month, just powerering through boil with Migawari. Never happened :(

I tried it and it sucked, you didn't miss a ton lol. Went back to tank/buff/healer and 3x COR or RNG instead, way better times.

NIN can tank the Dullahan fine with shadows/migawari though, with other people adding the damage. Melee DPS was kinda ***all around though, especially for anyone standing in front and dealing with massive shield block rate.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2018-03-07 23:29:21  
nin x3 (rema) geo brd whm sucked?
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2018-03-08 02:18:22  
Yeah. We didn't have a BRD there when I tried, just GEO (and I think 6th slot was something like a RDM mule) - but it was definitely worse than using COR RNG (Last Stand spam) with comparable quality gear/skill for DPS. My LS humored me in letting us give NIN-burn a shot, but it was pretty obvious that the ranged method worked far better for us so we went back to that.

I think it wasn't so much NIN specific as it was melee in general is mediocre on Dullahan. Whichever NIN had hate did utter garbage DPS (shield block), but even Innin up and behind the mob was kinda unimpressive.

And really, if you insisted on doing it melee style, prob better off with a SMN for Earthen Armor (same effect as Migawari there) and Hastega II support for any melee DDs - doesn't need to be NIN.
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By Siren.Kyte 2018-03-08 12:34:53  
Quote:
I think it wasn't so much NIN specific as it was melee in general is mediocre on Dullahan. Whichever NIN had hate did utter garbage DPS (shield block), but even Innin up and behind the mob was kinda unimpressive.

That's definitely not true. I tried killing it on SAM and I had issues due to even just a couple stray (non-Empyrean) melee swings causing Castigation to deal an unmanageable amount without Migawari or EA/Scherzo protection.


Carbuncle.Lunatone said: »
Fullers I just have to swap to my PDT/HP set and cureskin myself to live through it but I've heard of some people outrunning it since know its coming up etc


It's not too hard to outrun it. I think you could probably kill it just using a NIN DD via the same method as a SAM, but I haven't actually done it myself.
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