The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
I figured the big boost to Raiton would be noteworthy, since this gun is literally only useful for 2 things, NIN being one of them. Obviously not something I'd put in a conventional setup, but one where Futae is ready and I'm looking for the max nuke power.
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Agreed. And remember that we're talking about NIN, one of the jobs where TP/white damage does a higher portion of total TP+WS dmg than most (that's even true in NIN's most WS-heavy configuration of a well buffed Heishi & Blade: Ten). So those offhand hits/crits/multiattack procs do get some benefit to extra DMG on the weapon. Surely not as important as attribute and "special" stat (TA, WSD, whatever), but it's relevant. I'm still never comfortable accepting a Reisenjima offhand with ZERO DMG+, but I'm plenty fine with a modest amount of damage and excellent attribute/stats.
Spot-on. In fact, the only reason I found the 'perfect kanaria' beating an Ochu was precisely because it had such higher base dmg from +20DMG on augment. Without it, it wasn't as good. Was kind of surprising.
just backtracked. didnt realize kikoku atk didnt work in offhand. totally not worth it. thx
With Blade: Metsu in mind, should I go
Herculean Trousers w/ DEX+7 ACC+40 ATT+25 TripleAtk.+2
Or
Samnuha tights w/ STR+7 DEX+8 Dbl.Atk+3 TripleAtk+2
The Herc trousers will be in my Acc set. Unsure which is better on mobs I dont need to worry about acc on though. Herc trousers have alot of attack+ on over the Samnuha, but I don't know if the blatk/triplatk and extra DEX wins?
Herculean Trousers w/ DEX+7 ACC+40 ATT+25 TripleAtk.+2
Or
Samnuha tights w/ STR+7 DEX+8 Dbl.Atk+3 TripleAtk+2
The Herc trousers will be in my Acc set. Unsure which is better on mobs I dont need to worry about acc on though. Herc trousers have alot of attack+ on over the Samnuha, but I don't know if the blatk/triplatk and extra DEX wins?
if you want them for metsu I'd reaug yoru herc for WSD and they'd be okay till joku legs
Thanks.
Also, I cant work out if Shadow belt or Windbuffet belt works out the best? Or if I should also keep Epona's ring on when doing Blade Metsu or go for my Ramuh ring.
Also, I cant work out if Shadow belt or Windbuffet belt works out the best? Or if I should also keep Epona's ring on when doing Blade Metsu or go for my Ramuh ring.
Metsu windbuffet will win i think unless fotia, and eponas yeah.
Hold on ill post what im using for Metsu after Boshi helped me figure the same thing
Hold on ill post what im using for Metsu after Boshi helped me figure the same thing
Thanks! Thats a big help. What numbers would you generally expect form that set? Say, on Apex mobs?
I also am put off making a Fotia, simply because of Synergy.
I also am put off making a Fotia, simply because of Synergy.
grunfeld is a very good belt option as well
depends on the mob and buffs but I cant really remember on apex mobs been so long, I know in vagary w/ frailty/fury its like 15kish
by no means BiS its just what im capable of getting at this moment, I want to try regal ring in place of epona's eventually. Grunfield is a really cool option, also Lugra/+1 for the dusk hours
by no means BiS its just what im capable of getting at this moment, I want to try regal ring in place of epona's eventually. Grunfield is a really cool option, also Lugra/+1 for the dusk hours
Ramuh.Austar said: »
grunfeld is a very good belt option as well
Yeah, I use Grunfeld as my Metsu belt. Otherwise, Luna's set looks pretty good. My only other differences:
- Jukukik Feather (yeah blinking is annoying but I deal)
- I have a WSD Herc body, but without that Mummu+2 is prob a good call
One more thing because rappy reminded me I swapped demonry core into my ws set, though Juk feather would be better I think(acc on it?)
Since you use a WSD herc body, does DA4 WSD4 acc/att13 agi4 sound good to you guys for metsu? Been using it in my SavageB set on cor but never thought about it for nin
Since you use a WSD herc body, does DA4 WSD4 acc/att13 agi4 sound good to you guys for metsu? Been using it in my SavageB set on cor but never thought about it for nin
Anyone use Blade: To? Was messing around in omen yesterday trying to complete the magical objective, randomly hit 17k. Went back made a set for it, hit upwards of 30k with frailty and songs. A few times it was very high, and it averaged around 13k-22k without frailty. I understand it's a hybrid, just like Hot Shot & Jinpu. Was wondering if any extensive testing went into this WS like the others. buffs scenario, chaos/fighter's/wizard's frailty/fury/malaise might be interesting to see what it could do. Probably not as good as Jinpu, but it's an interesting option.
edit: fwiw, it doesn't count on the magical objective, but certainly modified by mab anyways.
It can add a step to multi sc as well: shun to kamu kamu shun shun (timing is super strict)
edit: fwiw, it doesn't count on the magical objective, but certainly modified by mab anyways.
It can add a step to multi sc as well: shun to kamu kamu shun shun (timing is super strict)
Carbuncle.Lunatone said: »
One more thing because rappy reminded me I swapped demonry core into my ws set, though Juk feather would be better I think(acc on it?)
Since you use a WSD herc body, does DA4 WSD4 acc/att13 agi4 sound good to you guys for metsu? Been using it in my SavageB set on cor but never thought about it for nin
Since you use a WSD herc body, does DA4 WSD4 acc/att13 agi4 sound good to you guys for metsu? Been using it in my SavageB set on cor but never thought about it for nin
That does look pretty good, and wouldn't surprise me at all to see it beat Mummu+2 situationally, but Mummu+2 looks to me like the slightly better default choice (mostly due to the substantially higher DEX on Mummu - but Herc with both DEX and WSD is hard to top). Both of those going to be near BiS choices though, aside from Herc with even better augments.
Oh, also: on legs, I didn't catch that you had Jokushu in your set. For Metsu, Hiza+2 probably gonna win that one in most situations (even with the lack of DEX).
[+]
Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Anyone use Blade: To? Was messing around in omen yesterday trying to complete the magical objective, randomly hit 17k. Went back made a set for it, hit upwards of 30k with frailty and songs. A few times it was very high, and it averaged around 13k-22k without frailty. I understand it's a hybrid, just like Hot Shot & Jinpu. Was wondering if any extensive testing went into this WS like the others. buffs scenario, chaos/fighter's/wizard's frailty/fury/malaise might be interesting to see what it could do. Probably not as good as Jinpu, but it's an interesting option.
Oh I didn't even realize Chi was also a hybrid. Overlooked that one. Yeah, that would definitely put out higher numbers, with Double Attack and all.
I guess the issue in the case of ninja is with gearing properly. Herculean set, interestingly enough, can get Double Attack augment (albeit rarely) if you choose the "Magic" path. So you could go for some DA/MAB/STR or INT OR WSD/MAB/STR or INT.
I guess the issue in the case of ninja is with gearing properly. Herculean set, interestingly enough, can get Double Attack augment (albeit rarely) if you choose the "Magic" path. So you could go for some DA/MAB/STR or INT OR WSD/MAB/STR or INT.
I've messed around w/ To/Chi a bit but in all honesty it felt like a waste of time. Both did waaaay more when targeting a mobs weakness(To shot up in ceizak, Chi on Zapdos) but the amount of buffs I felt like I needed to make it worthwhile but I'm sure there could be some potential. If you just want to play around with it try getting a cor, brd, geo to help you out and play with the numbers!
Carbuncle.Lunatone said: »
I've messed around w/ To/Chi a bit but in all honesty it felt like a waste of time. Both did waaaay more when targeting a mobs weakness(To shot up in ceizak, Chi on Zapdos) but the amount of buffs I felt like I needed to make it worthwhile but I'm sure there could be some potential. If you just want to play around with it try getting a cor, brd, geo to help you out and play with the numbers!
I'm in agreement, was just asking who had results since gear/buffs get better with time, might change some things. I did have a BRD/GEO in my party, so when I did hit a few high spikes I was shocked. Overall, Ten spam was clearly better, but my set wasn't that impressive and I didn't have the ideal buffs to make it work. Weakness Targetting might be the best option and just keep the macro ready in case the situation calls for it.
Oh yeah def! I actually made a set for it because there really did seem to be some potential, maybe in a little bit i'll fool around with it with brd geo cor and post numbers
Playing around with Chi, its definitely far better than To.
Buffs: fighters, chaos, zerk, aggressor, warcry (from a warrior)
Hitting average of 20k Blade Chi, upwards a handful of times for 35k, 44k. There is definitely some overlooked potential with this ws.
set I used:
heishi/ochu (capped)/ /seething bomblet+1
mocha mask +2/sanctity/friomisi/cremate's
herc vest (str14 att13 wsd3)/ herc gloves (str15 mab20)/ shiva+1/ dingir
andartia (str30 wsd10 acc/att20)/ eschan stone/ herc trousers (mab17 wsd4) / herc boots (acc/att24 mab44)
As you can see, my gear leaves much to be desired and lots of gaps need filling. Even still, pretty impressed with the results of Chi without major buffs (regal rolls, frailty, songs). Perhaps there's more to this ws than people have shared.
edit: food was rc
Buffs: fighters, chaos, zerk, aggressor, warcry (from a warrior)
Hitting average of 20k Blade Chi, upwards a handful of times for 35k, 44k. There is definitely some overlooked potential with this ws.
set I used:
heishi/ochu (capped)/ /seething bomblet+1
mocha mask +2/sanctity/friomisi/cremate's
herc vest (str14 att13 wsd3)/ herc gloves (str15 mab20)/ shiva+1/ dingir
andartia (str30 wsd10 acc/att20)/ eschan stone/ herc trousers (mab17 wsd4) / herc boots (acc/att24 mab44)
As you can see, my gear leaves much to be desired and lots of gaps need filling. Even still, pretty impressed with the results of Chi without major buffs (regal rolls, frailty, songs). Perhaps there's more to this ws than people have shared.
edit: food was rc
some snips of my last few before posting this. Eyeballing isn't a good test, most were done at 1k-2k tp range. Nothing crazy but shows potential
[+]
Bahadir said: »
Sooo....went back to slaying maaaany crabs and found some stuff out about hybrid WSs.
I tested with Blade: To (only one hit = easier to test).
Things I found out (about Blade: To. Need to check things like fTP for Chi still):
i) WSCs given on bgWiki are correct
ii) fTP is only applied to magical dmg, NOT physical one (see formula below).
iii) for Blade:To the fTP for phys is just a static 1
iv) for the magic part its fTP=0.5 for 1kTP, fTP=1.5 for 2kTP (educated guess) and fTP=2.5 for 3kTP.
v) The physical WS dmg is as stated on bgWiki with fTP=1 and multi hits like DA or the DW additional hit trigger as usual
vi) All phys hits are evaluated first (including TP return) and if the monster still lives after the last hit magical dmg is added like an add-effect without extra TP gain
Formula: TotalDmg = PhysDmg + (PhysDmg*fTP+mDmg)*MAB/MDB
where PhysDmg is the usual thing with WSCs and fSTR and pDif and so on. fTP is as mentioned in point iv).
Again experimental results if you care about numbers:
We d have to test for the other hybrid WSs if the fTP_phys is always just 1. But in general Id guess the idea is always: evaluate all phys hits and take that as base for the magical add-effect. That explains Verdas dmg spikes (TA/DA procs). I bet Flaming Crush works the same way.
I tested with Blade: To (only one hit = easier to test).
Things I found out (about Blade: To. Need to check things like fTP for Chi still):
i) WSCs given on bgWiki are correct
ii) fTP is only applied to magical dmg, NOT physical one (see formula below).
iii) for Blade:To the fTP for phys is just a static 1
iv) for the magic part its fTP=0.5 for 1kTP, fTP=1.5 for 2kTP (educated guess) and fTP=2.5 for 3kTP.
v) The physical WS dmg is as stated on bgWiki with fTP=1 and multi hits like DA or the DW additional hit trigger as usual
vi) All phys hits are evaluated first (including TP return) and if the monster still lives after the last hit magical dmg is added like an add-effect without extra TP gain
Formula: TotalDmg = PhysDmg + (PhysDmg*fTP+mDmg)*MAB/MDB
where PhysDmg is the usual thing with WSCs and fSTR and pDif and so on. fTP is as mentioned in point iv).
Again experimental results if you care about numbers:
We d have to test for the other hybrid WSs if the fTP_phys is always just 1. But in general Id guess the idea is always: evaluate all phys hits and take that as base for the magical add-effect. That explains Verdas dmg spikes (TA/DA procs). I bet Flaming Crush works the same way.
Found it ^^ separate thread in the nin forum. I figured out mostly how the dmg for Blade: To works. Started with Blade: Chi at some point but went to To as one hit was easier to evaluate.
Questions for Chi would be:
i) Is physical fTP_P always just 1?
ii) What are the magical fTP_M values? As I showed in the other post these wiki entries for To are wrong. So maybe Chi is different as well.
So phys dmg with Heisi would be yeild
Dmg_P = (D + fStr + WSCs) * fTP_P * pDif =
(floor(159/9)+8+159+.3*Int+.3*Str)*1*3.25 =
[Int = Str = 300 for some rough eyeballing] => 364 * 3.25 = 1183
Assuming capped pDif and fStr and assuming WSCs on wiki are coorect and fTP_P = 1 as with To.
So multiply this by 3-5 to add off hand hit and multi hits.
So about 3.6~6k Phys dmg (just to get an order of magnitude).
TotalDmg = PhysDmg + (PhysDmg*fTP+mDmg)*MAB/MDB
Taking the 5 hits and heishis added 186 mDmg and with 100MAB on a mob without MDB assuming an fTP_M of 1:
6k + (6k*fTP_M + 186)*2 ~ 18k
So its save to assume that the fTP_M would have to be much higher to explain the high dmg spikes we see.
Any one wanna test? ^-^
EDIT:
Srry the dmg is off. I added the WSCs to the additional hits which I shouldnt have (right?). So the dmg I calculated is too high. Would mean fTP is generally even higher.
From eyeballing/playing with numbers Id guess fTP_M = 1 for 1k TP and 2.5 for 3k TP as with To.
Didnt get the chance to try it out tonight, was too busy spreading the gospel of Metsu.
I'm not sure what you are asking to be tested. I'm not good at all with technical stuff behind abilities and such.
I'm too dumb to figure out how to upload stuff to a forum post but I can give numbers now and SS's later
ItemSet 357182
Blade:To-->Snaggletoothed Tiger :37259
Blade:To-->Agitated Chapuli :9802
Blade:To-->Ascended Chapuli :28970
Blade:Chi-->Agitated Chapuli :31169
Blade:Chi-->Snaggletoothed Tiger :20704
Blade:Chi--> Ascended Chapuli :28970
Lucky + Crooked Fighter/Chaos, NQ Wizard/Warlock,
Holy Trinity(fury BoG frail malaise)
Eminent Flute Night/troub/marc MinV + MinIV
Nin/Sam Innin
All were done w/ 1k-1500tp
The huge spikes came from Maldoror Empy+1 feet doing Ice/Earth shot
Herc Augments are:
head={ name="Herculean Helm", augments={'"Mag.Atk.Bns."+15','"Fast Cast"+6','CHR+10','Mag. Acc.+3',}},
legs={ name="Herculean Trousers", augments={'Mag. Acc.+23','Weapon skill damage +5%','"Mag.Atk.Bns."+12',}},
feet={ name="Herculean Boots", augments={'AGI+6','Mag. crit. hit dmg. +3%','Magic Damage +15','Accuracy+12 Attack+12','Mag. Acc.+12 "Mag.Atk.Bns."+12',}},
ItemSet 357182
Blade:To-->Snaggletoothed Tiger :37259
Blade:To-->Agitated Chapuli :9802
Blade:To-->Ascended Chapuli :28970
Blade:Chi-->Agitated Chapuli :31169
Blade:Chi-->Snaggletoothed Tiger :20704
Blade:Chi--> Ascended Chapuli :28970
Lucky + Crooked Fighter/Chaos, NQ Wizard/Warlock,
Holy Trinity(fury BoG frail malaise)
Eminent Flute Night/troub/marc MinV + MinIV
Nin/Sam Innin
All were done w/ 1k-1500tp
The huge spikes came from Maldoror Empy+1 feet doing Ice/Earth shot
Herc Augments are:
head={ name="Herculean Helm", augments={'"Mag.Atk.Bns."+15','"Fast Cast"+6','CHR+10','Mag. Acc.+3',}},
legs={ name="Herculean Trousers", augments={'Mag. Acc.+23','Weapon skill damage +5%','"Mag.Atk.Bns."+12',}},
feet={ name="Herculean Boots", augments={'AGI+6','Mag. crit. hit dmg. +3%','Magic Damage +15','Accuracy+12 Attack+12','Mag. Acc.+12 "Mag.Atk.Bns."+12',}},
I wasn't able to take advantage of Innin, HQ rolls, Geomancy, nor songs. But looking at gear, I think your MAB is on the lower side. Still, you produced decently high with all of those buffs for both Chi and To, so that gives me hope that with ideal sets (mab+20-30, wsd+3~4 str/int +10), the numbers could get much higher.
I got the chance to try a few more last night vs Apex Toads + Pugils. As could be expected, the damage sucked vs Toads, but was consistent (still lower than Ten, but wasn't buffed for it outside of chaos/frailty) on Pugs. Are Chapuli weak to earth? That might account for some of the higher numbers.
Really need to find something higher level that isn't heavily resistant to magic (ice or earth) and then do the tests on that. Reisenjima fodder are quite low for my comfort level. Perhaps Apex monsters are the ideal target, since they more closely reflect the level of monsters we would normally be fighting.
I got the chance to try a few more last night vs Apex Toads + Pugils. As could be expected, the damage sucked vs Toads, but was consistent (still lower than Ten, but wasn't buffed for it outside of chaos/frailty) on Pugs. Are Chapuli weak to earth? That might account for some of the higher numbers.
Really need to find something higher level that isn't heavily resistant to magic (ice or earth) and then do the tests on that. Reisenjima fodder are quite low for my comfort level. Perhaps Apex monsters are the ideal target, since they more closely reflect the level of monsters we would normally be fighting.
I think Chapuli are Wind based? I expected To's numbers to be higher on them but prob got a good amount of DA procs on Chi
Next time I mess with it will prob be on Apex Pugils or maybe some T1s in reisenjima
Next time I mess with it will prob be on Apex Pugils or maybe some T1s in reisenjima
Probably not the best idea dps-wise in a practical setting, but could also throw in ninjutsu to weaken the target's resistance to the element you wish to exploit. So for Chi, Raiton (thunder) lowers it's earth resistance. Huton (wind) lowers it's Ice resistance. I don't ever recall those spells making a real difference vs elemental weapon skills, but if they do, can't hurt to use them to reduce your chance of getting magical resists.
A couple hybrid WS points: In general, you want to gear for WSD > MAB > attributes/multiattack. TP Bonus is a big deal. So...
Weapons: Heishi Shorinken should be BiS weapon for that TP Bonus, and I'd guess offhanding a Malevolence will give best results at least from a purely WS number perspective (whether that's worth it over gearing for something more TP-oriented and giving some benefit for Hybrid WS, like Ochu, is a different discussion).
Ammo: Can toss a Pemphredo Tathlum in there.
Head: I have a hard time seeing Hachiya+3 head losing to anything except maybe an exceptional Herc Helm with WSD and MAB. I have a Herc Helm with a MAB+46 augment and no WSD, and IIRC when I briefly played with hybrid katana WS months ago, even that wasn't enough to make it a better choice over AF (WSD+10% and ~STR/INT+11 over Herc's MAB)
Earrings: should be Moonshade/Friomisi
Rings: Um... IIRC, Dingir and Arvina+1 was doing best for me. But I guess Kariyeh+1 is probably better if you happen to have that. Acumen Ring is another good (and cheap) option if you don't have stuff like Arvina+1/Fenrir+1, which I had cuz COR.
Back: Use your Blade: Ten cape for hybrid WS. WSD/STR is gonna give you best results for Chi/To.
Weapons: Heishi Shorinken should be BiS weapon for that TP Bonus, and I'd guess offhanding a Malevolence will give best results at least from a purely WS number perspective (whether that's worth it over gearing for something more TP-oriented and giving some benefit for Hybrid WS, like Ochu, is a different discussion).
Ammo: Can toss a Pemphredo Tathlum in there.
Head: I have a hard time seeing Hachiya+3 head losing to anything except maybe an exceptional Herc Helm with WSD and MAB. I have a Herc Helm with a MAB+46 augment and no WSD, and IIRC when I briefly played with hybrid katana WS months ago, even that wasn't enough to make it a better choice over AF (WSD+10% and ~STR/INT+11 over Herc's MAB)
Earrings: should be Moonshade/Friomisi
Rings: Um... IIRC, Dingir and Arvina+1 was doing best for me. But I guess Kariyeh+1 is probably better if you happen to have that. Acumen Ring is another good (and cheap) option if you don't have stuff like Arvina+1/Fenrir+1, which I had cuz COR.
Back: Use your Blade: Ten cape for hybrid WS. WSD/STR is gonna give you best results for Chi/To.
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