Random Question Thread (FFXI Related)

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Random Question thread (FFXI related)
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By Afania 2022-06-07 06:57:48  
SimonSes said: »
You just dont melee at all. Not even during Chi Blast or Tomahawk. You feed TP and can kill people. Also Req wont work (will hit for super low damage).

You mean super low damage because it can't bypass the damage type resists mechanics, or super low damage compare with the rest of the WS because req is mathematically a bad WS? Both scenerios are kinnnd of different from mechanics pov :p

The feed TP problem is easy to solve though: just gain TP via tact roll/QD and only run in to WS.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2022-06-07 08:16:13  
Ngai is not a mob the corsair is capable of dealing damage to in any capacity. Every one of the tier 3 NMs are all but immune to all forms of magic damage. I've seen a scholar magic burst a blizzard 5 off a level 4 darkness on Xevioso and only do double digit numbers. Whenerver I close darkness on Xevioso with a climactic flourish rudra's on my dancer or make radiance against Arebati with my ranger the closing weaponskills can hit for 60-80k, but the skillchain damage is in low triple digit figures. I've closed skillchains on my monk with the exact same results even when the weaponskill was extremely damaging.

Requiescat against Ngai is no exception -- and yes we have tried it. Requiescat doesn't even scratch him; in fact savage blade does better. Only blunt damage hurts him. It sucks, but there's just no way for the cor to get around ngai's defenses.
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By Afania 2022-06-07 10:08:31  
Fenrir.Melphina said: »
Requiescat against Ngai is no exception -- and yes we have tried it. Requiescat doesn't even scratch him; in fact savage blade does better. Only blunt damage hurts him. It sucks, but there's just no way for the cor to get around ngai's defenses.

Yes, Baniak already said that, and I saw it ;p. but I'm trying to figure out the reason behind it from mechanic pov, since it can have 2 different reasons behind bad dmg:


Afania said: »
You mean super low damage because it can't bypass the damage type resists mechanics, or super low damage compare with the rest of the WS because req is mathematically a bad WS? Both scenerios are kind of different from mechanics pov :p

I guess practically it doesn't matter cuz no strategy will be changed on that NM based on that fact. I'm just trying to figure out exactly how does this non-elemental property and NM damage type resist works.
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-06-07 10:14:19  
If it was doing low damage just because it was weak, then Savage would be doing even worse.
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By SimonSes 2022-06-07 10:28:08  
Afania said: »
I guess practically it doesn't matter cuz no strategy will be changed on that NM based on that fact. I'm just trying to figure out exactly how does this non-elemental property and NM damage type resist works.

High def, -attack % on Req, low damage on req anyway, high MDT, some MDB. You will probably do like 2k or less?
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-06-07 10:33:10  
MDT and MDB don't affect Requiescat.
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By Afania 2022-06-07 10:42:22  
SimonSes said: »
Afania said: »
I guess practically it doesn't matter cuz no strategy will be changed on that NM based on that fact. I'm just trying to figure out exactly how does this non-elemental property and NM damage type resist works.

High def, -attack % on Req, low damage on req anyway, high MDT, some MDB. You will probably do like 2k or less?

Req has an attack penality, at 3k TP this penality is 0. so 1750 TP with TP bonus gun/earring should remove the penality.

That being said, Naeg has an attack boost. So if SB is hitting harder than req, it's possible that it's attack boost doing the work, not because none-elemental dmg isn't working.

I still wanted to know the mechanic behind it because that means if SE implement a "slashing dmg taken -100%" kind of property on an NM in the future then req should beat SB if non-elemental can bypass it.

Edit: If I remember correctly req worked on zdei in escha, just saying.

Edit 2: if SB does 51k dmg at attack cap, with 75% dmg cut it would be doing 12-13k roughly. So req just has to beat that number to beat SB at attack cap, which shouldn't be impossible with todays gear but I need to double check

I just don't know if it's attack problem or mechanics problem.
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-06-07 11:02:05  
Gaol NMs have DT to typeless damage, similar to Fortifications. Requiescat does not bypass it.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2022-06-07 11:19:20  
Afania said: »
SimonSes said: »
You just dont melee at all. Not even during Chi Blast or Tomahawk. You feed TP and can kill people. Also Req wont work (will hit for super low damage).

You mean super low damage because it can't bypass the damage type resists mechanics, or super low damage compare with the rest of the WS because req is mathematically a bad WS? Both scenerios are kinnnd of different from mechanics pov :p

The feed TP problem is easy to solve though: just gain TP via tact roll/QD and only run in to WS.

Wanted to comment on the bold part of your post regarding Ngai, since you are specifically asking about that-

You would build TP on the party using QD and Tactician's Roll, but you wouldn't waste it on a cruddy damage Requiescat that in the grand scheme of the fight might be 0.5% of the parse...when the fetter proc mechanism for Ngai is multiple WSs in a tight window not chaining. You need multiple people (3,4,etc as needed for how many times he pops them), and the simplest way is the backline locking main/sub and WS'ing when a proc is needed.

The added DPS from any non-blunt job on Ngai is only going to be a problem and never a benefit.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2022-06-07 12:37:58  
Quote:
I still wanted to know the mechanic behind it because that means if SE implement a "slashing dmg taken -100%" kind of property on an NM in the future then req should beat SB if non-elemental can bypass it.

It's called resistance ranks, and I assume this is what's going on here. Taken from the Wiki page

Quote:
Resistance ranks force certain behaviors on magic hit rate for spells and effects of that element when they are high enough. This includes offensive spells, enfeebles, and debuffs from additional effects.

  • At ranks of 15% to 50%, an additional resist state of 1/2 is forced onto any magic effects that are used on them. This brings resist level 0 to 1, 1 to 2, 2 to 3, and 3 to a special resist level of 4 (1/16th damage). As such, it is normally impossible to land anything for better than 1/2 damage on a monster with a 50% or higher resistance rank to that element.

  • At a rank of 10%, in addition to the additional resist state listed above, magic hit rate is automatically floored on them regardless of magic accuracy.

  • At a rank of 5%, all magic effects are forced to be resist level 4, regardless of any other factors.


Basically s-e set the resistance ranks for all elemental and non-elemental damage on all of the tier 3 mobs to their maximum values. The exception is Ongo which has a maximum resistance rank to every element except earth, which is set to 50%. Consequently, it's this blasted mechanic that makes Ongo such a hellish fight to coordinate, because this is the mechanic that Rayke, Gambit, and subtle sorcery are combating. They directly cut into his resistace rank and lower it by severeal tiers which allows earth spells to actually hurt him. At the maximum ranks elemental accuracy is floored no matter how high your personal stats are, and the maximum damage penalty is automatically applied to all magic attacks of that element. It also allows resists to go beyond the normal 1/8 tier into a special 1/16 resistance tier that only happens when resistance ranks are that high. This is all independent of the magic attack/magic defense ratio too, which only further cuts into the damage magic attacks do on T3 nms.

It's s-e's way of strong arming us into doing the fight the way they want us to do it. Any attempts to be cute and creative on these tier 3 nms just don't work... period. It sucks that the whole system is so damn rigid. Between the no sub jobs and damage resistances it's a royal pain. But there's your answer.
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-06-07 12:45:31  
Resistance ranks have nothing to do with physical damage, which is what Requiescat does. You're conflating two unrelated mechanics.

Also, T3 Gaol mobs have high resistance ranks, but not absurdly so, which is why you can still land enfeebles on them (albeit with difficulty). Ongo's earth resistance rank is 30%, which is likely the same rank as the other T3s' weaknesses. The primary reason all of the non-Ongo T3s take basically no magic or SC damage is because they've got ridiculous MDT, like 90% or even higher (as compared to Ongo's 20% on V20).
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2022-06-07 12:48:34  
Requiescat is non-elemental damage isn't it? It may not be hit by resistance ranks, but I'm pretty certain something similar to them is going on nonetheless. Bottom line though is magic attacks, non- elemental or otherwise, just don't work on T3's. Requiescat on Ngai isn't an exception regardless of the reason.
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-06-07 12:50:05  
No, Requiescat is typeless physical damage. MAB/MDB/MDT have no effect, but Attack/weapon DMG/mob defense/fSTR do.

Requiescat bypasses most DT- mechanics because few mobs have global DT, which is what is required to block typeless damage like Req and Twilight Scythe.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2022-06-07 12:51:03  
Seems I learned something today then. Updoot for that. Thanks for correcting me.
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By Afania 2022-06-07 14:05:06  
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Afania said: »
SimonSes said: »
You just dont melee at all. Not even during Chi Blast or Tomahawk. You feed TP and can kill people. Also Req wont work (will hit for super low damage).

You mean super low damage because it can't bypass the damage type resists mechanics, or super low damage compare with the rest of the WS because req is mathematically a bad WS? Both scenerios are kinnnd of different from mechanics pov :p

The feed TP problem is easy to solve though: just gain TP via tact roll/QD and only run in to WS.

Wanted to comment on the bold part of your post regarding Ngai, since you are specifically asking about that-

You would build TP on the party using QD and Tactician's Roll, but you wouldn't waste it on a cruddy damage Requiescat that in the grand scheme of the fight might be 0.5% of the parse...when the fetter proc mechanism for Ngai is multiple WSs in a tight window not chaining. You need multiple people (3,4,etc as needed for how many times he pops them), and the simplest way is the backline locking main/sub and WS'ing when a proc is needed.

The added DPS from any non-blunt job on Ngai is only going to be a problem and never a benefit.

No, I specifically asked about a mechanic that was inspired by Ngai's mechanics. I didn't ask for a specific strategy for Ngai v20 nor I want to discuss them. So idk why this conversation keeps going back to "please don't melee Ngai because dmg suck on v20". You all didn't get the point >.>

Also just FYI, not everyone do Ngai v20. The last Ngai that I did was v5 because I'm a returning player looking for first clear lol. And v5 stats was way lower so all WS can damage several times higher than 2k. So I'm pretty sure not ALL Ngai will make your WS 2k. The lower level ones wouldn't.

I only wanted to know if req bypasses damage type resists, that's all there is. It's a question about mechanics, not a question about v20 Ngai strategy.

In the scenerio that req bypasses this mechanics, if slashing dmg cut reduces 50k SB to 12k and req does 15k(I'm just assuming) dmg, then req wins.

If req can't bypass this mechanics, then SB will always win.

That's the difference between "req suck because it's stats suck" and "req suck because non-elemental dmg doesn't bypass this mechanic"

Then YOU decide whether you WS or not based on vengeance level or other NM with similar mechanics, by knowing the mechanics behind it.

This is why I'm trying to figure out the mechanics so I can apply the knowledge somewhere else that isn't v20 Ngai. I'm not looking to discuss a v20 Ngai strategy, just dmg cut mechanics.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2022-06-07 14:10:19  
Then my apologies, but when you consistently ask about a specific fight and if a specific weaponskill bypasses that specific mob's properties, how are we supposed to infer you're asking for a different fight/target?
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By Afania 2022-06-07 14:14:28  
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Then my apologies, but when you consistently ask about a specific fight and if a specific weaponskill bypasses that specific mob's properties, how are we supposed to infer you're asking for a different fight/target?

>.> I asked for the same fight too, just different vengeance level.....


Afania said: »
And v5 stats was way lower so all WS can damage several times higher than 2k. So I'm pretty sure not ALL Ngai will make your WS 2k. The lower level ones wouldn't.

Afania said: »
Then YOU decide whether you WS or not based on vengeance level or other NM with similar mechanics, by knowing the mechanics behind it.

It's all you assuming I'm asking about v15-v20 when I never type v15-v20 in my question.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2022-06-07 14:38:11  
You're right-you have been gone a while. Its been common practice in these forums to talk about the Ody fights and related strats regardless of Vengeance Level, unless a mechanic is introduced on increasing vengeance levels that demands an alteration...for months. While you may be able to overpower certain aspects of some fights at lower V-levels, it would be foolish not to "train" on the lower V-levels with the expectations of what's coming down the pike, rather than rethinking everything once brute force no longer works.

Just because a Slashing Weaponskill isn't complete garbage at V0 but it is at V15 doesn't make it the right (or even a smart) choice when the fight's easier. Doing it the way that abuses the specific weaknesses from day one will always result in faster clears, more predictable wins, and more RP over time.

You complain that you're asking about a specific mechanic, not a specific fight. The weaknesses/strengths are the same at V0 or V20, and can be abused the same way. I don't see why you're trying so hard to fit the square COR peg into a round hole not meant for it, and when others try and simply point this out with months of a head start over you in this content (ie- more direct experience in the fight), all you respond with is "well yeah BUT".

All the things are you asking to try and make work were asked months ago and experience has shown its not viable. Its not a question of "only at X vengeance level"- its the mechanics of the fight, ways around have been tried, and its just not worth the headache or frustration.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2022-06-07 16:51:33  
For coalition rank ups... if you go over the amount of imprimaturs needed for a rank up, does that roll over into your next rank or do you lose credit for any excess? For example, if you're at 18/20 imps needed for a rank up and do a 3-imp task... when you turn that in, are you at 0/20 for the next rank, or 1/20?


And a couple responses to previous page items:
Asura.Topace said: »
Odin.Stayfresh said: »
Can I drop a character from party in omen and still get cards on that character?
I believe so.

I realize I am a bit late to the game on this week old question, but I can confirm you do get cards. Several times last month during Omen card campaign I brought a mule in and dropped it from the party after entry in favor of a trust... still got full cards on the mule.


Additionally, if you're looking to confirm a specific item instead of looking through the big list of undeliverable items, the BGwiki item entries for EX items include the metadata telling whether they are same account sendable.

Sendable to same account characters will say "CanSendPOL". For example, see Malignance Tabard. Note that the "Not sendable" flag means the item can't be d-boxed to other characters not on your same POL account.

EX items that are NOT sendable to same account characters will just not include the "CanSendPOL" flag. For example, see Plunderer's Armlets +3.
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 Asura.Bippin
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By Asura.Bippin 2022-06-07 17:01:06  
0/20 From my understanding
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By Afania 2022-06-07 23:08:57  
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
it would be foolish not to "train" on the lower V-levels with the expectations of what's coming down the pike, rather than rethinking everything once brute force no longer works.

Andddd....this discussion went back to strategy discussion again!

I don't need to "train" v15/20 strategy on lower levels. I've done ranged attack and proc only multiple times when I went with LS's v20 attempts, I just didn't get win and ended up joining a v5 PUG for win. And I also did the same when I cleared for KI in a v5 run.

I noticed my WS is much stronger in v5 so that inspired my question.

I don't need countless people tell me "don't engage" when that was what I've been doing all the time on Ngai. I don't need a strategy discussion at least not from COR perspective. I only seek knowledge to theory craft things.

If I need to lowman lower vengeance level again for other people needing ki, I think such knowledge can be applied(or not, if it doesn't actually work).

Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
I don't see why you're trying so hard to fit the square COR peg into a round hole not meant for it

I always "square COR peg into a round hole" in a way to find new strategy that is possibly better than before for this job. I'm a theory crafter, so repeating an old strategy on something is not an interesting activity to me. But finding potentially new one is. If that new strategy suck then it suck and nobody will use it. If not then I can apply them when I'm on the job.

That's how I play FFXI in past 13 years on everything. I cleaved omen on cor when BLU was objectively the better cleaver. I build a sneak attack set for Eirnys on cor when SA was needed to kill it. I made a Max accuracy doomsday when we used mage setup to clear w3 so I can participate in SC without accuracy buffs. I soloed Lilith E on COR when MNK was better. I even keep a club on cor so I can do blunt dmg on Zdei NM in escha lol...

I always play FFXI this way, "square COR peg into a round hole", so idk why it's suddenly a wrong thing to do NOW that needs to be educated and changed.

But yeah, I shouldn't have mentioned cor and Ngai at all after not getting any answer after the first post. So many posts that are irrelevant to the actual question and this drags on and on. I should just silently go solo Ngai v0 and test WS dmg myself then post results in Odyssey thread lol.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2022-06-08 01:11:06  
We don't know your question clearly. Because all you keep doing is mentioning a mechanic unique to a specific monster, then insist you're not asking about that monster or its strategy.

Stop blaming others for your constant return to Ngai.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2022-06-08 01:19:14  
Omg so much testosterone in this thread over these last few posts lol
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By Asura.Raelia 2022-06-08 01:45:52  
I have a Suppanomimi, so I've done Divine might. I have the permanent KIs to match:



Anyone know why I can't buy Phantom Gem of Envy? I'm only offered Arrogance, Cowardice, and Rage.

Edit: Because I already have one! DERP!
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By Afania 2022-06-08 02:19:35  
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
We don't know your question clearly.

What's so not clear about my question?

Afania said: »
Anyone know if non-elemental dmg like Requiescat can bypass Odyssey T3 NM dmg type resists?

The answer is "yes" or "no" or "I don't know". It's as clear as it is.

I only brought up Ngai once because someone said "Ongo is the only application that's worth it, but it doesn't work", I used Ngai as another possible application, that's all. That's because I wasn't sure if "doesn't work on Ongo" was because of global DT- from Ongo or not. Ngai was brought up because it's related to mechanics, as Ongo may have different DT- mechanics from the rest.

Then that's endless subsequent "no you shouldn't melee" with maybe 2 testimonials (testimonials, not actual answers to the question) with useful information from Baniak and Melphina confirming dmg suck on v15/v20.

I tried to further verify if dmg suck is caused by low attack and high mob stats in v15/20, or if non-elemental actually doesn't work in this case. I only used Ngai v5 here as an example to demonstrate WS does higher dmg in lower vengeance so it's possible that the low dmg is caused by higher stats in higher vengeance level. And I want to rule out this possibility for mechanics discussion purpose.

Then all I got was even more "no you shouldn't melee" "it's your fault that you asked questions this way" posts. /Sigh. Whenever I mentioned Ngai, it's always about the mechanics, not v20 strategy. So idk why the discussion got derailed.

Anyways, I'm not interested in derailing this thread with forum arguments and finger pointing. So let's just let other people ask their questions okay?
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By SimonSes 2022-06-08 03:40:59  
You got the answer from Geriond tho
Asura.Geriond said: »
Gaol NMs have DT to typeless damage, similar to Fortifications. Requiescat does not bypass it.
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By SimonSes 2022-06-08 04:09:15  
Asura.Geriond said: »
Resistance ranks have nothing to do with physical damage, which is what Requiescat does.
Asura.Geriond said: »
No, Requiescat is typeless physical damage. MAB/MDB/MDT have no effect, but Attack/weapon DMG/mob defense/fSTR do.

I always have problem with typeless/non-elemental damage details, but what you are saying seems kinda wrong too. If it's physical than PDT works against it? The fact that it uses physical calculations including pdif and fSTR doesn't mean anything imo.
Elementals take normal damgage from Req right? They seems to have general pdt tho, so how is that possible? Isn't Req just non magic and non physical (Bg wiki calls it Spirit or breath?). We have several things that I have problem categorizing. Requiescat, Spirits Within, Chi blast, Formless Strike, Crepuscular scythe with enh. and Murasamemaru WSs and I'm pretty sure all of them are not in the same category too, but terminology used for most of them is similar. Maybe its time to sort it out.
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By Asura.Sechs 2022-06-08 04:26:42  
I think requiescat takes physical stats from the player (at least Attack+ for sure) and converts them into non-elemental damage.
Otherwise how would you explain attack+/- affecting a WS that deals non-elemental damage?

Supposing this is true, of course it's a special thing of Requiescat alone I guess, since most (all?) other forms of non-elemental damage seem to be unaffected by stats like Attack.
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By SimonSes 2022-06-08 05:00:46  
Asura.Sechs said: »
I think requiescat takes physical stats from the player (at least Attack+ for sure) and converts them into non-elemental damage.
Otherwise how would you explain attack+/- affecting a WS that deals non-elemental damage?

Supposing this is true, of course it's a special thing of Requiescat alone I guess, since most (all?) other forms of non-elemental damage seem to be unaffected by stats like Attack.

I think how it's calculated and final type of damage is completely irrelevant. Formless Strike just change type of damage on your melee attack. It still uses same calculations. Same for Crepuscular Scythe. Murasamemaru also doesn't change any calculation despite changing damage type of the final WS. I think this clearly shows that how damage is calculated has no connection with final damage type, since it can be modified to whatever.
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