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Presidential Candidates .. Who do you like?
 Lakshmi.Galith
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 427
By Lakshmi.Galith 2011-11-23 11:48:28
Well, what does a store do if they want to generate more revenue? They hold a "sale" where they lower their prices. The increased value they provide their customers via the event spurs them to spend their money. The customers get a deal, and the store makes more sales. It's win/win. The same thing works on the macro level with government, they more money you let everyone keep, the more everyone uses it to generate more tax revenue.
It's not really the same thing since a store can't print their own money and pay their bills with Disney Dollars. You have to pick your poison taxes or inflation and the correct answer is usually a combination of both. It's somewhat sickening to see how polarized this debate is on the news station and I think they have portrayed it incorrectly.
CNN MSNBC and Fox have all managed to create this Us vs. Them mentality and it only adds to the insecurity. This ongoing discussion about how we're going to default on our debt that reoccurs every 3 months and gets pushed back due to the incompetence in congress probably plays a bigger part in how willing consumers are to spend their money than the tax rate.
Wasn't it so much nicer back in the day when we could pay for wars with simple acts of pillaging. Why did we ever stop that?
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Ragnarok.Nausi
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6709
By Ragnarok.Nausi 2011-11-23 12:21:17
Well the economy as a whole and how it functions is quite complicated, but the concept of tax cuts and their effect on the economy really is that simple. It proves itself right every time we do it.
Lakshmi.Galith
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 427
By Lakshmi.Galith 2011-11-23 12:54:58
Well the economy as a whole and how it functions is quite complicated, but the concept of tax cuts and their effect on the economy really is that simple. It proves itself right every time we do it.
Tax cuts just means they'd have to raise funds through bonds which would raise inflation. You could argue that you have more money to pay for more expensive items as a result. Our policy has been to issue bonds and pay for bonds with more bonds leading to the national debt. It sort of hides the inflation since we're not really injecting the money into the economy but we're delaying it sure enough. The trick is finding the point at which decreasing taxes equalizes the benefit from increased income and inflation. This is a difficult but interesting study of projected spending based on tax rates and I doubt anyone on a forum like this has that information.
The situation reminds me more of those corporations and hedge funds that borrowed and raised money to pay for derivatives that were over leveraged. When all those derivatives came due they crashed like a rock. I worry that the national debt will grow so large that the inflation will have a similarly rapid impact since our currency is not backed by anything and leveraged with issuing more bonds.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 51
By Asura.Vangaren 2011-11-23 22:59:51
oh yea... LOL at that ridiculous chart a few posts ago. You're logic is just flawed. Tax cuts produce far more growth than their actual value (1 dollar of cuts produces more than a dollar of growth). This is why our economy is so much bigger now than it was 30 years ago (before the Regan tax cuts). I pray that we don't actually repeal those cuts so you liberals don't need to find out just how wrong you are about how they help the economy.
If you take that money out of the system, middle class wages will sink even further as workers will have more pressure to compete and make up the difference for their bosses and investors. The economy will slow down even faster and total tax revenues into the government will drop.
Here's an article from USA Today showing the returns of various tax cuts, including the Bush tax cuts, and the effects of various stimulus measures, such as infrastructure investments and food stamp/unemployment benefits. The article sources a chart by Moody's Analytics, which is world renowned for it's economic analysis and risk assessment.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2010-07-15-unemployment15_CV_N.htm
If a program or policy is budget neutral, that means it brings in an equal return to what is invested. In this case, the US economy. Spend $1 to stimulate the economy, and the resulting investment, when taxed, returns $1 to the treasury. Create a policy that is running a budget deficit, such as the Bush tax cuts, which according to the analysis returns $0.32 on the dollar, then yes you may grow the economy. However that's not sustainable. You cannot keep that up indefinitely, as the entity providing the source of growth will eventually end up flat broke. (i.e. an unsustainable debt)
Stimulus programs on the other hand, go directly into the economy. Infrastructure spending or aiding state governments directly (who are in massive financial crisis's now), grows the economy by $1.57 and $1.47 respectively. THAT method of growing the economy IS sustainable.
Infrastructure spending, food stamps, unemployment insurance extensions, payroll tax holidays, and the others listed in that article go directly into the economy to those who need that money most and are least likely to just end up saving it. They go out and BUY things they need, like food, clothing, fuel, and other consumables and commodities. More buying, means more growth across the board.
Oh, and your comment about how stores generate more revenue by holding sales? Do you honestly think that stores are selling those items at less than what it cost them? Even on sale there is a profit margin for the store, who most likely bought in bulk to save even more. OR they do what stores like Best Buy do. Have a near 0% profit margin on the large sale items, but have a 200-500% profit margin on the smaller accessories (like hdmi cables).
The Bush tax cuts are closer in comparison to this; A restaurant that buys a steak at $10, and sells it for $3.20. Oh they'll get a lot of customers, and the customers will get what they want. But they'll be
running themselves into the ground in the process.
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Caitsith.Mahayaya
サーバ: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3341
By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2011-11-23 23:31:17
Infrastructure spending, food stamps, unemployment insurance extensions, payroll tax holidays, and the others listed in that article go directly into the economy to those who need that money most and are least likely to just end up saving it. They go out and BUY things they need, like food, clothing, fuel, and other consumables and commodities. More buying, means more growth across the board.
Except that those funds are being funneled outside of the good ole U S of A. China, Turkey, Indonesia making money off of clothing sales. Saudi Arabia making bucks off fuel. Commodities coming mostly from China.
Unless they're spending their money on products made and sold in America, there will be loss in the long run.
Caitsith.Mahayaya
サーバ: Caitsith
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3341
By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2011-11-23 23:56:34
The other countries should just all come together and just let life run wild, it's pretty easy tbh; just approve shipping among themselves and done, they can all make money off it too.
It may sound nice, but global banking and world government would be even less accountable for the damages they cause or senseless profits they stand to gain. The closer to home things are run, the better they are managed, and the more responsible people are for their actions.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 51
By Asura.Vangaren 2011-11-24 09:15:48
Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »Infrastructure spending, food stamps, unemployment insurance extensions, payroll tax holidays, and the others listed in that article go directly into the economy to those who need that money most and are least likely to just end up saving it. They go out and BUY things they need, like food, clothing, fuel, and other consumables and commodities. More buying, means more growth across the board.
Except that those funds are being funneled outside of the good ole U S of A. China, Turkey, Indonesia making money off of clothing sales. Saudi Arabia making bucks off fuel. Commodities coming mostly from China.
Unless they're spending their money on products made and sold in America, there will be loss in the long run.
I actually agree with you on that one. Domestic goods help the US far more than imported ones. Buying local produce (which tastes better anyway), investing in high fuel efficiency domestic cars (hybrids in particular), investing in local energy sources such as wind and solar (that avoids the cheap overseas coal), and making sure the clothing you buy is made in america helps the economy more than you think.
I had to love when the word came out that the campaign tshirts for Newt Gingrich, Hermain Cain, Rick Santorum, and Ron Paul were all made outside the United States. They were made in Honduras and El Salvador, places notorious for sweat shops and poor working conditions. They even went as far as to support the fact they bought imports.
Source: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/presidential-candidates-claim-ignorance-foreign-made-merchandise/story?id=14212262
Way to support the 400,000 textile workers in this country guys.
Ragnarok.Harpunnik
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 867
By Ragnarok.Harpunnik 2011-11-24 09:48:51
[/quote]
oh yea... LOL at that ridiculous chart a few posts ago. You're logic is just flawed. Tax cuts produce far more growth than their actual value (1 dollar of cuts produces more than a dollar of growth). This is why our economy is so much bigger now than it was 30 years ago (before the Regan tax cuts). I pray that we don't actually repeal those cuts so you liberals don't need to find out just how wrong you are about how they help the economy.
If you take that money out of the system, middle class wages will sink even further as workers will have more pressure to compete and make up the difference for their bosses and investors. The economy will slow down even faster and total tax revenues into the government will drop.
Here's an article from USA Today showing the returns of various tax cuts, including the Bush tax cuts, and the effects of various stimulus measures, such as infrastructure investments and food stamp/unemployment benefits. The article sources a chart by Moody's Analytics, which is world renowned for it's economic analysis and risk assessment.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2010-07-15-unemployment15_CV_N.htm
If a program or policy is budget neutral, that means it brings in an equal return to what is invested. In this case, the US economy. Spend $1 to stimulate the economy, and the resulting investment, when taxed, returns $1 to the treasury. Create a policy that is running a budget deficit, such as the Bush tax cuts, which according to the analysis returns $0.32 on the dollar, then yes you may grow the economy. However that's not sustainable. You cannot keep that up indefinitely, as the entity providing the source of growth will eventually end up flat broke. (i.e. an unsustainable debt)
Stimulus programs on the other hand, go directly into the economy. Infrastructure spending or aiding state governments directly (who are in massive financial crisis's now), grows the economy by $1.57 and $1.47 respectively. THAT method of growing the economy IS sustainable.
Infrastructure spending, food stamps, unemployment insurance extensions, payroll tax holidays, and the others listed in that article go directly into the economy to those who need that money most and are least likely to just end up saving it. They go out and BUY things they need, like food, clothing, fuel, and other consumables and commodities. More buying, means more growth across the board.
Oh, and your comment about how stores generate more revenue by holding sales? Do you honestly think that stores are selling those items at less than what it cost them? Even on sale there is a profit margin for the store, who most likely bought in bulk to save even more. OR they do what stores like Best Buy do. Have a near 0% profit margin on the large sale items, but have a 200-500% profit margin on the smaller accessories (like hdmi cables).
The Bush tax cuts are closer in comparison to this; A restaurant that buys a steak at $10, and sells it for $3.20. Oh they'll get a lot of customers, and the customers will get what they want. But they'll be
running themselves into the ground in the process. oh yea... LOL at that ridiculous chart a few posts ago. You're logic is just flawed. Tax cuts produce far more growth than their actual value (1 dollar of cuts produces more than a dollar of growth). This is why our economy is so much bigger now than it was 30 years ago (before the Regan tax cuts). I pray that we don't actually repeal those cuts so you liberals don't need to find out just how wrong you are about how they help the economy.
If you take that money out of the system, middle class wages will sink even further as workers will have more pressure to compete and make up the difference for their bosses and investors. The economy will slow down even faster and total tax revenues into the government will drop.
Here's an article from USA Today showing the returns of various tax cuts, including the Bush tax cuts, and the effects of various stimulus measures, such as infrastructure investments and food stamp/unemployment benefits. The article sources a chart by Moody's Analytics, which is world renowned for it's economic analysis and risk assessment.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2010-07-15-unemployment15_CV_N.htm
If a program or policy is budget neutral, that means it brings in an equal return to what is invested. In this case, the US economy. Spend $1 to stimulate the economy, and the resulting investment, when taxed, returns $1 to the treasury. Create a policy that is running a budget deficit, such as the Bush tax cuts, which according to the analysis returns $0.32 on the dollar, then yes you may grow the economy. However that's not sustainable. You cannot keep that up indefinitely, as the entity providing the source of growth will eventually end up flat broke. (i.e. an unsustainable debt)
Stimulus programs on the other hand, go directly into the economy. Infrastructure spending or aiding state governments directly (who are in massive financial crisis's now), grows the economy by $1.57 and $1.47 respectively. THAT method of growing the economy IS sustainable.
Infrastructure spending, food stamps, unemployment insurance extensions, payroll tax holidays, and the others listed in that article go directly into the economy to those who need that money most and are least likely to just end up saving it. They go out and BUY things they need, like food, clothing, fuel, and other consumables and commodities. More buying, means more growth across the board.
Oh, and your comment about how stores generate more revenue by holding sales? Do you honestly think that stores are selling those items at less than what it cost them? Even on sale there is a profit margin for the store, who most likely bought in bulk to save even more. OR they do what stores like Best Buy do. Have a near 0% profit margin on the large sale items, but have a 200-500% profit margin on the smaller accessories (like hdmi cables).
The Bush tax cuts are closer in comparison to this; A restaurant that buys a steak at $10, and sells it for $3.20. Oh they'll get a lot of customers, and the customers will get what they want. But they'll be
running themselves into the ground in the process.
Just to be nitpicky about the bolded. Stores often times do put things on sale at a net loss. The term is called loss leader. I have account that need to do this these days on certain items that people price shop to death and have to compete with the internet.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 51
By Asura.Vangaren 2011-11-24 11:05:27
Ragnarok.Harpunnik said: »Just to be nitpicky about the bolded. Stores often times do put things on sale at a net loss. The term is called loss leader. I have account that need to do this these days on certain items that people price shop to death and have to compete with the internet.
That is actually a common business practice on certain items, I'll admit. However 'loss leaders' are often accompanied by related products that are sold for a profit. Famous examples would be razor blade handles given away at the fraction of their cost. The replacement blades on the other hand are sold at a profit. The same principle applies to video game consoles which are sold at a loss. The games high price and higher profit margin make up for that loss as well. A local example (since I used a restaurant as an example before) would be this nice Hibachi steakhouse I go to in my town. On monday and tuesdays they do half price entrees. They DO however require that you purchase a drink in order to get the half price deal, and the profit margin for alcohol at restaurants is godly.
Going back to the original issue, the tax cuts, I honestly wouldn't have had a problem with them if they had been;
a) budget neutral. offsetting 100% the cost of offering those tax cuts without affecting services that millions rely on
b) temporary. A temporary stimulus is meant to be just that. Temporary. Making them temporary, in the anticipation that a future congress or administration would never oppose their renewal for fear of the political backlash is just dirty politics.
c) If their benefit to the economy had been a worthy investment. A dollar in for a dollar out. A thousand dollars spent on infastructure (such as roads, bridges, general construction, schools, ect ect) would return $1570. $1000 in tax cuts would only return $320.
If you ran a business, and could chose between those two, which would you choose?
 Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2011-12-02 01:49:48
So it seems Cain is just about out of the running according to public opinion.
That's too bad he recently got my support last week or so on his stance to legalize marijuana.
But now he loses mad points from me for being in the "friend zone" for 13 years.
Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2011-12-03 12:58:50
Breaking News: Herman Cain suspends presidential campaign
サーバ: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10394
By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2011-12-03 13:01:10
Breaking News: Herman Cain suspends presidential campaign
Maybe now the women will stop crawling out of the woodwork like cockroaches.
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Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2011-12-03 13:01:35
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Breaking News: Herman Cain suspends presidential campaign
Maybe now the women will stop crawling out of the woodwork like cockroaches. I know right, lol.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 51
By Asura.Vangaren 2011-12-04 11:00:29
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Breaking News: Herman Cain suspends presidential campaign
Maybe now the women will stop crawling out of the woodwork like cockroaches. I know right, lol.
Yes, the multiple women who were harassed by Herman Cain were clearly cockroaches while he remains pristine and without fault.
What really explains the shift from Cain to Newt was that Cain's supporters must have clearly realized that Cain was just far far FAR too monogamous to be elected.
Carbuncle.Asymptotic
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2659
By Carbuncle.Asymptotic 2011-12-04 11:03:12
I will be surprised that some rich old dude running for president made a psss on some chick when that old dude is a woman.
Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2011-12-05 09:17:13
I'm starting to warm to the idea of voting for Romney...
However Obama is still dominating in the polls, except when in comes to the category of him versus the GOP. Oddly enough the Republicans have a slight lead, yet not for the individual candidates.
All of which seems to indicate people are fed up (duh) but can't find a good enough contender.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/president_obama_vs_republican_candidates.html
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6386
By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2011-12-05 09:18:14
Breaking News: Herman Cain suspends presidential campaign
Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2011-12-12 19:05:19
 Cerberus.Irohuro
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6583
By Cerberus.Irohuro 2011-12-12 19:14:32
Quote: ...uphold the Defense of Marriage Act...
and suddenly i dont like him that much any more
Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2011-12-13 01:01:55
Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2011-12-19 19:25:42
Don't know who to vote for?
Try the Match-O-Matic
By zahrah 2011-12-20 00:17:07
Daaaaawwwww, Chaos! Did you find something fun for the undecided kiddos?
(It was easy to pick our your candidate's platforms if you've been paying attention.) Since no one else will throw theirs down, I got...
1.) Paul (Shocker!)
2.) Obama
3.) Gingrich (WTF?)
By slipispsycho 2011-12-20 00:24:11
Daaaaawwwww, Chaos! Did you find something fun for the undecided kiddos?
(It was easy to pick our your candidate's platforms if you've been paying attention.) Since no one else will throw theirs down, I got...
1.) Paul (Shocker!)
2.) Obama
3.) Gingrich (WTF?)
4.) Perry (how in the *** did this guy ever make it this far?!!?
>.>
[+]
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
サーバ: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6386
By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2011-12-20 00:34:13
Daaaaawwwww, Chaos! Did you find something fun for the undecided kiddos?
(It was easy to pick our your candidate's platforms if you've been paying attention.) Since no one else will throw theirs down, I got...
1.) Paul (Shocker!)
2.) Obama
3.) Gingrich (WTF?)
4.) Perry (how in the *** did this guy ever make it this far?!!?
>.>
More and more, whenever Rick Perry speaks I am reminded of the Celebrity Jeopardy sketch where Tom Hanks gets stuck in a plastic bag.
Bahamut.Serj
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2011-12-20 00:47:32
Jon Huntsman.
I'm really pissed most people don't even consider him a candidate. He's really working on winning NH. Will see what happens.
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 142
By Sylph.Deathknight 2011-12-20 01:12:47
Leviathan.Chaosx
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2011-12-20 06:29:12
Daaaaawwwww, Chaos! Did you find something fun for the undecided kiddos?
(It was easy to pick our your candidate's platforms if you've been paying attention.) Since no one else will throw theirs down, I got...
1.) Paul (Shocker!)
2.) Obama
3.) Gingrich (WTF?)
Mine came up a little weird, especially the #3 slot.
1. Obama
2. Paul
3. Perry (LOL!) <- the weird one
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 18930
By Leviathan.Catnipthief 2011-12-20 06:41:38
Just did that thing and yeah mine is a bit odd lol.
1. Obama.
2. Mitt Romney
3. Ron Paul (wat)
Like the title says... The time is coming soon, where we will vote for our new President...... Personally, I believe the only person that would actually be good for this country is Ron Paul, everyone else seems like a bullshitter!
so who do you like?
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