|
DNC Response from the Devs
Sylph.Kiaru
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 681
By Sylph.Kiaru 2011-08-15 11:30:53
Fenrir.Niniann said: Shiva.Gib said: yeah I've been doing DNC like since the week WoTG came out, i'm not a Abyssea nub bandwagon jumper I can assure you :P
I'm more of a solo play DNC
Well I'm more of a group-heal DNC, so I do care. They need to fix it, but they're obviously not going to. They're not going to fix DNC, their new design for DNC isn't a support healer hybrid, it's some weird solo specialist and DD. Very boring and bland imo, it's why my DNC won't ever get 90/99.........sigh I loved the job so much at 75 it makes me sad. I would play FF14 thinking about how fun/awesome my DNC was wishing it existed in FF14.
Bahamut.Sakurawr
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 247
By Bahamut.Sakurawr 2011-08-15 11:31:51
Except for the fact DNC has Fan Dance, which is specially for tanking.
Fan + Eva set + DNC dot + Divine Waltz II spam and I can firmly keep hate off a Kannagi NIN.
(Our Vere MNK is MIA most of the time so can't really do a test v that)
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1161
By Fenrir.Mtmoogle 2011-08-15 11:33:46
At 75 cap i was able to cure my entire pty fine as long as they didnt do something completely reckless. Sometimes wouldn't even need a healer but only for haste.
By Norondor 2011-08-15 11:37:55
Bahamut.Sakurawr said: Except for the fact DNC has Fan Dance, which is specially for tanking.
Fan + Eva set + DNC dot + Divine Waltz II spam and I can firmly keep hate off a Kannagi NIN.
(Our Vere MNK is MIA most of the time so can't really do a test v that)
yet we still provide no red/yellow/blue/TH and thf/nin/mnk/whatever do just as well despite the lack of fan dance, and indeed are just as good solo with CW3
funny old world
Sylph.Kiaru
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 681
By Sylph.Kiaru 2011-08-15 11:39:41
Norondor said: Bahamut.Sakurawr said: Except for the fact DNC has Fan Dance, which is specially for tanking.
Fan + Eva set + DNC dot + Divine Waltz II spam and I can firmly keep hate off a Kannagi NIN.
(Our Vere MNK is MIA most of the time so can't really do a test v that)
yet we still provide no red/yellow/blue/TH and thf/nin/mnk/whatever do just as well despite the lack of fan dance, and indeed are just as good solo with CW3
funny old world Yeah, nothing is hard enough to warrant fan dance, plus those jobs have their own tricks(more shadows, more evasion, counter, high hp, etc).
The sub haste samba and best waltz thing REALLY kills the entire job for me.
Quote: At 75 cap i was able to cure my entire pty fine as long as they didnt do something completely reckless. Sometimes wouldn't even need a healer but only for haste.
I still always liked a back up healer, just in case things got out of control, and yeah for haste. But as far as I was concerned, my healer could /nin and go to town DDing RDM/NIN or WHM/NIN lol.
Bahamut.Sakurawr
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 247
By Bahamut.Sakurawr 2011-08-15 11:39:42
Norondor said: Bahamut.Sakurawr said: Except for the fact DNC has Fan Dance, which is specially for tanking.
Fan + Eva set + DNC dot + Divine Waltz II spam and I can firmly keep hate off a Kannagi NIN.
(Our Vere MNK is MIA most of the time so can't really do a test v that)
yet we still provide no red/yellow/blue/TH and thf/nin/mnk/whatever do just as well despite the lack of fan dance, and indeed are just as good solo with CW3
funny old world Well, THF provides just as little in terms of red/blue/yellow.
Dagger WS for blue, Dagger for red, /Nin for yellows.
More than 0, if little at that.
Bahamut.Aeronis
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1838
By Bahamut.Aeronis 2011-08-15 11:40:53
Bahamut.Sakurawr said: Norondor said: Bahamut.Sakurawr said: Except for the fact DNC has Fan Dance, which is specially for tanking.
Fan + Eva set + DNC dot + Divine Waltz II spam and I can firmly keep hate off a Kannagi NIN.
(Our Vere MNK is MIA most of the time so can't really do a test v that)
yet we still provide no red/yellow/blue/TH and thf/nin/mnk/whatever do just as well despite the lack of fan dance, and indeed are just as good solo with CW3
funny old world Well, THF provides just as little in terms of red/blue/yellow.
Dagger WS for blue, Dagger for red, /Nin for yellows.
More than 0, if little at that. TH :|
Bahamut.Sakurawr
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 247
By Bahamut.Sakurawr 2011-08-15 11:41:33
Sylph.Kiaru said: Norondor said: Bahamut.Sakurawr said: Except for the fact DNC has Fan Dance, which is specially for tanking.
Fan + Eva set + DNC dot + Divine Waltz II spam and I can firmly keep hate off a Kannagi NIN.
(Our Vere MNK is MIA most of the time so can't really do a test v that)
yet we still provide no red/yellow/blue/TH and thf/nin/mnk/whatever do just as well despite the lack of fan dance, and indeed are just as good solo with CW3
funny old world Yeah, nothing is hard enough to warrant fan dance, plus those jobs have their own tricks(more shadows, more evasion, counter, high hp, etc).
The sub haste samba and best waltz thing REALLY kills the entire job for me. You eat Pantokrator's HF and see if you say the same afterwards.
Fan does ALOT when you're actually a tank.
How do you know anyway, your DNC isn't even 90, lol.
Also, fan gives +15 emnity! /whoosh.
[+]
Alexander.Gib
サーバ: Alexander
Game: FFXI
Posts: 227
By Alexander.Gib 2011-08-15 11:42:14
Fenrir.Niniann said: Shiva.Gib said: yeah I've been doing DNC like since the week WoTG came out, i'm not a Abyssea nub bandwagon jumper I can assure you :P
I'm more of a solo play DNC
Well I'm more of a group-heal DNC, so I do care. They need to fix it, but they're obviously not going to. and I'm saying you shouldn't be using the word 'Fix' it's not broken :P
Bahamut.Sakurawr
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 247
By Bahamut.Sakurawr 2011-08-15 11:42:53
Bahamut.Aeronis said: Bahamut.Sakurawr said: Norondor said: Bahamut.Sakurawr said: Except for the fact DNC has Fan Dance, which is specially for tanking.
Fan + Eva set + DNC dot + Divine Waltz II spam and I can firmly keep hate off a Kannagi NIN.
(Our Vere MNK is MIA most of the time so can't really do a test v that)
yet we still provide no red/yellow/blue/TH and thf/nin/mnk/whatever do just as well despite the lack of fan dance, and indeed are just as good solo with CW3
funny old world Well, THF provides just as little in terms of red/blue/yellow.
Dagger WS for blue, Dagger for red, /Nin for yellows.
More than 0, if little at that. TH :| I was commenting blue/red/yellow, I didn't argue that fact D:
Sylph.Kiaru
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 681
By Sylph.Kiaru 2011-08-15 11:43:40
I really don't want to argue it, please drop it.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2106
By Asura.Xenophire 2011-08-15 11:44:38
Sylph.Kiaru said: I really don't want to argue it, please drop it. You seemed pretty fond to argue with us in the RDM thread. Just sayin'.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-15 11:45:32
Bahamut.Sakurawr said: You eat Pantokrator's HF and see if you say the same afterwards.
Fan does ALOT when you're actually a tank.
How do you know anyway, your DNC isn't even 90, lol.
Also, fan gives +15 emnity! /whoosh. Fanatic's Drink and/or not triggering it to begin with gogo.
Also he's really not that accurate, he just has a high counter rate.
MUST HAVE JOB TO KNOW HOW IT WORKS
+15 enmity matters a whole lot when you cap hate after the first 30 seconds of DDing anyway amirite?
Bahamut.Sakurawr
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 247
By Bahamut.Sakurawr 2011-08-15 11:45:44
Asura.Xenophire said: Sylph.Kiaru said: I really don't want to argue it, please drop it. You seemed pretty fond to argue with us in the RDM thread. Just sayin'. lol ^
By Norondor 2011-08-15 11:46:24
+15 enmity from fan dance barely offsets the lack of damage from haste samba, and that's without even counting bonus double attack from saber dance. it's Just Not That Good except to eat throat stabs. NOTABLY: other tanks can still tank throat stabbers, and have the advantage of being wildly better than dancers.
it's not like anyone came to the dancer forum for dancers to read what the devs have to say about dancer changes specifically because we want to talk ***on dancers. these are the issues we currently face and, apparently, aren't being addressed (... or at least, aren't being discussed, because the devs need to play slow-pitch and point out that an ability that makes your next WS free on a 10 second cooldown would be too powerful)
Bahamut.Sakurawr
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 247
By Bahamut.Sakurawr 2011-08-15 11:46:53
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Bahamut.Sakurawr said: You eat Pantokrator's HF and see if you say the same afterwards.
Fan does ALOT when you're actually a tank.
How do you know anyway, your DNC isn't even 90, lol.
Also, fan gives +15 emnity! /whoosh. Fanatic's Drink and/or not triggering it to begin with gogo.
Also he's really not that accurate, he just has a high counter rate.
MUST HAVE JOB TO KNOW HOW IT WORKS
+15 enmity matters a whole lot when you cap hate after the first 30 seconds of DDing anyway amirite? I'm not the only person on it lol, I'm never the one to trigger HF.
And he counters me maybe 3 times at fight? Mainly on 4 legs not 2.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-15 11:47:21
Norondor said: +15 enmity from fan dance doesn't offsets the lack of damage from haste samba, fixed, it's not even close
Sylph.Kiaru
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 681
By Sylph.Kiaru 2011-08-15 11:48:08
Norondor said: +15 enmity from fan dance barely offsets the lack of damage from haste samba, and that's without even counting bonus double attack from saber dance. it's Just Not That Good except to eat throat stabs. NOTABLY: other tanks can still tank throat stabbers, and have the advantage of being wildly better than dancers.
it's not like anyone came to the dancer forum for dancers to read what the devs have to say about dancer changes specifically because we want to talk ***on dancers. these are the issues we currently face and, apparently, aren't being addressed (... or at least, aren't being discussed, because the devs need to play slow-pitch and point out that an ability that makes your next WS free on a 10 second cooldown would be too powerful)
Seriously, why do they answer such STUPID questions?!?!?!?
Every job they've visited so far has gotten nothing but the worst questions ever answered, are they trolling us?
Bahamut.Aeronis
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1838
By Bahamut.Aeronis 2011-08-15 11:48:31
Sylph.Kiaru said: I really don't want to argue it, please drop it. If you came in to a job specific thread and didn't think there would be debate, you thought wrong :|
By Norondor 2011-08-15 11:49:51
well i was assuming only +26% gear from haste and no DW and only assuming white damage, so yeah, functionally it's actually much worse.
Bahamut.Sakurawr
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 247
By Bahamut.Sakurawr 2011-08-15 11:50:32
Norondor said: +15 enmity from fan dance barely offsets the lack of damage from haste samba, and that's without even counting bonus double attack from saber dance. it's Just Not That Good except to eat throat stabs. NOTABLY: other tanks can still tank throat stabbers, and have the advantage of being wildly better than dancers.
it's not like anyone came to the dancer forum for dancers to read what the devs have to say about dancer changes specifically because we want to talk ***on dancers. these are the issues we currently face and, apparently, aren't being addressed (... or at least, aren't being discussed, because the devs need to play slow-pitch and point out that an ability that makes your next WS free on a 10 second cooldown would be too powerful) They do need to sort out what they're doing with the job, just seems random atm.
Also fight Vadleay (sp?, that ladybug in Altepa), he munches all but PDT bst pets and DNC as Spiral Burst does a bloody ton and pierces shadows. :(
Phoenix.Brixy
By Phoenix.Brixy 2011-08-15 11:51:39
I guarantee if they gave /nin Yonin and Innin the nins would be complaining just as much as dncs are that everyone can have haste samba, a fairly decent cure and they even gave /dnc violent flourish...
Why do some /jobs get nurfed while others dont?
By Norondor 2011-08-15 11:51:52
Sylph.Kiaru said:
Seriously, why do they answer such STUPID questions?!?!?!?
Every job they've visited so far has gotten nothing but the worst questions ever answered, are they trolling us?
Considering that the job manifestos were really stupid anyway, i'm going to have to make myself sad and say "no, they are not trolling us. We're dealing with a novice dev team taking over a 9-year-old game."
(I guess a more charitable interpretation would be that they are just not that used to the idea of actually talking to players yet and there's a lot of growing up they'll have to do!)
Shiva.Gib
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1264
By Shiva.Gib 2011-08-15 11:52:06
I do think it's though "DNC isn't like a WHM Q.Q"
I mean if you want to be a heavy duty main healer, level WHM, get over it
Bahamut.Aeronis
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1838
By Bahamut.Aeronis 2011-08-15 11:54:45
Phoenix.Brixy said: I guarantee if they gave /nin Yonin and Innin the nins would be complaining just as much as dncs are that everyone can have haste samba, a fairly decent cure and they even gave /dnc violent flourish...
Why do some /jobs get nurfed while others dont? Why would we be complaining that others are getting 5% less haste and a gimp sub?
[+]
Sylph.Kiaru
サーバ: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 681
By Sylph.Kiaru 2011-08-15 11:54:51
SCH suffers from the exact same things DNC does, /SCH gives you access to accession and manifestation, the 2 main things that made SCH SCH and made SCH unique at 75 <_< They really need to give us new unique ideas 95-99.
By Norondor 2011-08-15 11:55:15
Shiva.Gib said: I do think it's though "DNC isn't like a WHM Q.Q"
I mean if you want to be a heavy duty main healer, level WHM, get over it
from all dancers who actually liked the job before abyssea: please go away
Phoenix.Brixy said: I guarantee if they gave /nin Yonin and Innin the nins would be complaining just as much as dncs are that everyone can have haste samba, a fairly decent cure and they even gave /dnc violent flourish...
Why do some /jobs get nurfed while others dont?
that's the really annoying question: if other jobs didn't get CW3 and Haste Samba from /dnc, um, what would they be getting, exactly?
putting haste samba and CW3 above level 49 is clearly not a solution either, buuuuut i suspect what we can look forward to is another flourishIII that does something stupid like 1tp regain for 5FM
Carbuncle.Sevourn
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9481
By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2011-08-15 11:57:09
Carbuncle.Asymptotic said: Fenrir.Mtmoogle said: dnc really doesn't need anything imo.
Death Flourish, AoE instant reraise-III, AoE party invincibility, innate caped crit rate and crit dmg, am I missing anything?
ukkos
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 8022
By Shiva.Viciousss 2011-08-15 12:00:21
This article is just as useless as the pld one, what is SE doin ~.~
Shiva.Gib
サーバ: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1264
By Shiva.Gib 2011-08-15 12:03:46
Norondor said: Shiva.Gib said: I do think it's though "DNC isn't like a WHM Q.Q"
I mean if you want to be a heavy duty main healer, level WHM, get over it
from all dancers who actually liked the job before abyssea: please go away
Again, I can assure you I was 75 DNC before you were even humoring leveling the job, and I solo'ed a good chunk of it, and I'm sure I'm way more versatile of a DNC then you. So yeah, about that.
Here's your link
Here's the text
Greetings dancers! Here is some feedback from the development team in regards to your comments about the job adjustments concepts. Enjoy
Add new modes for dancers. Add dances that give sphere effects.
Since sphere effects are extremely strong and completely negate the opposite enfeebling effect, we won’t be implementing the sphere effect itself. However, we are planning to add something that gives your party members some kind of effect while continuing to consume your TP. As we are not at the stage where can give info on specific effects, we would love to hear your ideas.
Make it so Waltzes don’t all share the same timer.
We would need to completely remake the system as it was originally balanced to have a unified recast timer with limitations placed on the amount of TP consumed. If we removed that, the cure capabilities of the job would be greatly enhanced throwing the balance off between other healing magic. If we were to split the Waltz timers, we would have to raise the TP consumption as a trade-off.
Reduce the recast timer on Waltz. (Especially higher tier Curing Waltz and Healing Waltz)
Since Curing Waltz was designed to be different from Cure in the sense that it has advantages with short execution time and it is hard to interrupt, but on the flip side is difficult to use in quick succession, we do not have any plans to reduce the recast time further. Instead we wish for dancers to focus on specific tactics taking into account the levels of Waltz and use the most appropriate one for the situation.
Similarly for Healing Waltz, since it is possible to address a large variety of status ailments covered by na-related spells and Erase, the recast timer was set to be somewhat long.
Make it possible to use Healing Waltz on people outside of your party.
It would be necessary to look into not only Healing Waltz, but also extending Erase to people outside of your party. In the case that we decide to extend the effects of Erase to people outside of your party, we will make it possible for Healing Waltz, too.
Increase the effect of Animated Flourish.
We are looking into adjustments for this. We are considering making it so you can generate the same level of enmity as Provoke when consuming two finishing moves.
Increase the accuracy for Desperate Flourish.
We are exploring the direction of adding equipment that enhances the accuracy.
Make it so you can perform level 2-3 skill chains with Wild Flourish.
Comparing this to samurai’s Konzen-ittai, the recast timer is shorter and it has multiple uses so the effect itself was set rather low for balance purposes.
Make it so you can stack steps over level 5.
This would require us to look into the effects carefully. Since the effect of level 5 is currently very strong, we do not have any plans of increasing this at the moment.
Lengthen the effect duration for steps.
We are looking into the direction of making it so the duration gets longer at higher levels.
Make it so you can generate two finishing moves even after you have reached level 5.
It can be thought that the fundamental problem here is that in order to maintain the effect of the step you need to continuously use the same step. First we will revamp the step effect duration and determine how many times you can use a step in a single battle, and then make a decision based on that.
The idea is to be able to fight by using a variety of steps and not using the same one over and over just to maintain its effect.
Make Chocobo Jig an AoE effect.
Since there is no cost for Chocobo Jig the effect is set to be only for the dancer.
In the event that we were to extend the effect to party members, there would be some room to explore this if there were TP consumption or some other trade-off.
Make it so you can overwrite Spectral Jig.
Please understand that this is the same as magic and items and it is following the rule that in order to re-apply the effect you need to remove it first.
Irrelevant stuff:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11584-%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A7%E3%83%96%E8%AA%BF%E6%95%B4%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BB%E3%83%97%E3%83%88%EF%BC%9A%E8%B8%8A%E3%82%8A%E5%AD%90/page6
It's up on the Japanese forums. The whole thing looks pretty grim, but I won't make specific comments until I'm done translating it for myself. My Japanese is rusty though, so I apologize ^_^ English one should be up later today (usually around 7est)
Questions Addressed:
1.) Want to add a new mode/sphere effect dance?
2.) I don't want to share waltz recast timers.
They pull out both system-related woes and balance related woes. Simply splitting recast timers would make waltzes too powerful compared to other forms of recovery magic (apparently - this is what I've been saying is on their minds all along lol). Something about splitting might require substantial increases in TP cost if they did do it?
3.) I want waltz recast reduced.
Basically they pull that waltz can't be interrupted, so they don't want to decrease recast timers. They want us to use 1-3 for regular waltzes and IV + V "situationally." The recast on healing is similarly "deliberately high." -_-
4.) I would like to use healing waltz outside of PT.
5.) I would like to increase the effectiveness of Animated Flourish.
6.) I would like to increase the hit rate of Desperate Flourish.
7.) I would like wild flourish to do higher tier skillchains.
They draw a comparison to Konzen-Ittai. They set the effect of Wild lower than Konzen-Ittai because Konzen-Ittai has a significantly longer recast, which makes sense, really.
8.) We want more than 5 stages of step.
This is really disappointing. They already consider the effect of level 5 daze to be very high, so they probably won't increase the potency like I listed in my suggestion thread :(
9.) I want to increase step duration.
10.) I want to earn 2 finishing moves when step level 5 is present.
11.) I want chocobo jig to affect the party.
12.) I want to be able to overwrite spectral jig.
|
|