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DNC Response from the Devs
Phoenix.Pooman
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 215
By Phoenix.Pooman 2011-09-08 20:05:55
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »and theres No Foot Rise 5/5 It's at that point that you should probably concede to the fact you know jack diddly about dancer, and are more than likely just spouting off generic nonsense that you don't know about.
Probably has Building Flourish fully merited too. i like my 5/5 nfr :<
It's cool if you're not hardcore about DNC and all, but the general, I-want-to-be-an-awesome-DNC group will normally put some of those merits somewhere else.
Fenrir.Niniann
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2871
By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-09-08 20:09:20
It's cool if you're not hardcore about DNC and all, but the general, I-want-to-be-an-awesome-DNC group will normally put some of those merits somewhere else.
TBH all the merits now are kinda meh. It's been proven already that 1/5 Fan/Saber Dance is basically the same as 5/5, minus the fact you can reapply it more often if say you need to cure yourself during Saber Dance.
I'd probably take 5/5 closed position over 5/5NFR just because Presto makes it mostly pointless, but either isn't terrible.
Building Flourish merits however, are an unforgivable sin.
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サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2269
By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-09-08 20:12:25
Pretty sure nini's mad jelly of my step accuracy
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Cerberus.Valmur
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3642
By Cerberus.Valmur 2011-09-08 20:13:35
Step acc and building flourish 5/5 sign of a true dnc wolf told me so!
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By Inuyasha 2011-09-08 20:22:30
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »and theres No Foot Rise 5/5 It's at that point that you should probably concede to the fact you know jack diddly about dancer, and are more than likely just spouting off generic nonsense that you don't know about. DNC90...played it since 75....i know what im talking about<3 was also one of those "DDDNC: at 75 too...which i wholely enjoy the enhanced damage they are giving us in these updates~
but either way...what else is there to merit? pretty much a waste to put it in Saber/Fan Dance over 1...and if your tanking on DNC your mostly doing it in eva gear..so 3/5 Closed Position for that extra eva...
anyway...5/5 NFR cause im totally gunna want to do the equivilent of a Presto->Steps every time NFR is up...
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-09-08 20:25:07
Since when does having the job mean you know what you're talking about? Your words ring hollow, especially given your preference for DD DNC back at 75 cap.
Quote: and if your tanking on DNC your mostly doing it in eva gear derp derp full eva onry
Why is this whole concept of trades so hard to understand? Higher base eva = less eva needed in gear = more DD gear = faster kills. If everything you fight is weak enough that the extra acc/eva is irrelevant then it doesn't matter which you merit but 2-3 extra merits in NFR probably isn't making much of a difference there either.
By Inuyasha 2011-09-08 20:25:20
It's cool if you're not hardcore about DNC and all, but the general, I-want-to-be-an-awesome-DNC group will normally put some of those merits somewhere else. TBH all the merits now are kinda meh. It's been proven already that 1/5 Fan/Saber Dance is basically the same as 5/5, minus the fact you can reapply it more often if say you need to cure yourself during Saber Dance. I'd probably take 5/5 closed position over 5/5NFR just because Presto makes it mostly pointless, but either isn't terrible. Building Flourish merits however, are an unforgivable sin. NFR -> flourishes -> WS -> Presto-> Steps says hi :X
(can switch those around...normally have 5 FM's up when tanking not important stuff)
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2269
By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-09-08 20:29:24
It's cool if you're not hardcore about DNC and all, but the general, I-want-to-be-an-awesome-DNC group will normally put some of those merits somewhere else. TBH all the merits now are kinda meh. It's been proven already that 1/5 Fan/Saber Dance is basically the same as 5/5, minus the fact you can reapply it more often if say you need to cure yourself during Saber Dance. I'd probably take 5/5 closed position over 5/5NFR just because Presto makes it mostly pointless, but either isn't terrible. Building Flourish merits however, are an unforgivable sin. NFR -> flourishes -> WS -> Presto-> Steps says hi :X
(can switch those around...normally have 5 FM's up when tanking not important stuff)
I'll just leave this here
By Inuyasha 2011-09-08 20:30:37
Since when does having the job mean you know what you're talking about? Your words ring hollow, especially given your preference for DD DNC back at 75 cap. Quote: and if your tanking on DNC your mostly doing it in eva gear derp derp full eva onry Why is this whole concept of trades so hard to understand? yea...cause the only thing you could do at 75 was heal right herpaderp? cause there was totally a way to not gear for DD and do it right..or understand the job enough to make a DD out of it.
basicly...ive seen and done DNChealing onry...its not the ONLY THING the job has and seperating waltz timers isnt going to fix anything about those nostalgia goggles or tardboxes.
Evasion set with Utsusemi....for ***idont want to hit me...Utsusemi and a TPing build for what i can evade without having evasion set on...or isnt worth evading.
btw: trolling me cause i have a different point of view isnt going tog et you anywhere.
By Inuyasha 2011-09-08 20:31:14
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »It's cool if you're not hardcore about DNC and all, but the general, I-want-to-be-an-awesome-DNC group will normally put some of those merits somewhere else. TBH all the merits now are kinda meh. It's been proven already that 1/5 Fan/Saber Dance is basically the same as 5/5, minus the fact you can reapply it more often if say you need to cure yourself during Saber Dance. I'd probably take 5/5 closed position over 5/5NFR just because Presto makes it mostly pointless, but either isn't terrible. Building Flourish merits however, are an unforgivable sin. NFR -> flourishes -> WS -> Presto-> Steps says hi :X (can switch those around...normally have 5 FM's up when tanking not important stuff) I'll just leave this herei read that...best way to generalize a job ever
edit: howait...thats not the DNC guide...thats just a post saying the exact thing ive been doing...except i dont use my FM's to SSC
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-09-08 20:34:34
yea...cause the only thing you could do at 75 was heal right herpaderp? Do well? Pretty much, yeah.
Quote: cause there was totally a way to not gear for DD and do it right..or understand the job enough to make a DD out of it. You're still deliberately choosing a bottom-tier setup over what was god-tier for anything involving fodder mobs aside from Salvage.
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サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2269
By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-09-08 20:34:53
basicly...ive seen and done DNChealing onry...its not the ONLY THING the job has Noone is saying anything about it being the only thing the job has, what we are saying is it was one of the only things that made the job even relevant at 75
Nowadays the point of dancer is hard to be rationalized when putting one inside of your party in comparison to the far more efficient alternatives'
btw: enlightening me cause i have an incorrect and uneducated point of view isnt going tog et you anywhere.
we've gathered
Phoenix.Pooman
サーバ: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 215
By Phoenix.Pooman 2011-09-08 20:36:49
yea...cause the only thing you could do at 75 was heal right herpaderp? Do well? Pretty much, yeah.
Quote: cause there was totally a way to not gear for DD and do it right..or understand the job enough to make a DD out of it. You're still deliberately choosing a bottom-tier setup over what was god-tier for every event involving fodder mobs.
Isn't that the word you use when someone disagrees with you in a reasonable way?
By Inuyasha 2011-09-08 20:38:14
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: » basicly...ive seen and done DNChealing onry...its not the ONLY THING the job has Noone is saying anything about it being the only thing the job has, what we are saying is it was one of the only things that made the job even relevant at 75 Nowadays the point of dancer is hard to be rationalized when putting one inside of your party in comparison to the far more efficient alternatives' btw: enlightening me cause i have an incorrect and uneducated point of view isnt going tog et you anywhere. we've gathered nice, you put words in there that i didnt say, i see what you did thar.
(also, your wrong. i know what im doing...and im well educated in my views on the job and what would potentially "fix" something that isnt really broken to begin with.)
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By Inuyasha 2011-09-08 20:39:34
yea...cause the only thing you could do at 75 was heal right herpaderp? Do well? Pretty much, yeah. Quote: cause there was totally a way to not gear for DD and do it right..or understand the job enough to make a DD out of it. You're still deliberately choosing a bottom-tier setup over what was god-tier for every event involving fodder mobs. Isn't that the word you use when someone disagrees with you in a reasonable way? nah...its what happens when you say something...then an *** just HAS to come in and tell you your wrong...with inflamatory statements...and then his buddies come in to jump you...and spam the forum with 55 more pages of explaining what i already understand.
By Inuyasha 2011-09-08 20:42:01
yea...cause the only thing you could do at 75 was heal right herpaderp? Do well? Pretty much, yeah. Quote: cause there was totally a way to not gear for DD and do it right..or understand the job enough to make a DD out of it. You're still deliberately choosing a bottom-tier setup over what was god-tier for anything involving fodder mobs aside from Salvage. 1)do well, but is not the ONLY thing it did well...or did at all.
2)i switched in and out as priorities required...if party was full and wherent bieng utter tards i could WS and do damage and if ***went bad switch out of DD mode and go back to heal. it wasnt that hard really
3) i see what you did thar.
ninja: edited before you came back with the grammar nazi
サーバ: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2269
By Cerberus.Wolfshadow 2011-09-08 20:43:01
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »It's cool if you're not hardcore about DNC and all, but the general, I-want-to-be-an-awesome-DNC group will normally put some of those merits somewhere else. TBH all the merits now are kinda meh. It's been proven already that 1/5 Fan/Saber Dance is basically the same as 5/5, minus the fact you can reapply it more often if say you need to cure yourself during Saber Dance. I'd probably take 5/5 closed position over 5/5NFR just because Presto makes it mostly pointless, but either isn't terrible. Building Flourish merits however, are an unforgivable sin. NFR -> flourishes -> WS -> Presto-> Steps says hi :X (can switch those around...normally have 5 FM's up when tanking not important stuff) I'll just leave this herei read that...best way to generalize a job ever
edit: howait...thats not the DNC guide... thats just a post saying the exact thing ive been doing...except i dont use my FM's to SSC NFR -> flourishes -> WS -> Presto-> Steps says hi :X best solution is to go Step -> Building -> TP more -> Presto -> Step -> WS -> 2x round -> Reverse -> WS
Did you even open the thread much less read it?
Noone can be this ignorant
Seriously
I'm strongly suspecting troll
Regardless I give up, it's like talking to a dyslexic wall
Your witness nini
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-09-08 20:45:36
2)i switched in and out as priorities required...if party was full and wherent bieng utter tards i could WS and do damage and if ***went bad switch out of DD mode and go back to heal. it wasnt that hard really I'm assuming you mean "using Seigan/Utsusemi", which invalidates the point of having a DNC present to begin with. In other words, your mediocre style was justified by the needs of the mediocre people you were healing, or not healing given that they weren't using Hasso as they should have been.
By Inuyasha 2011-09-08 20:46:06
Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »Cerberus.Wolfshadow said: »It's cool if you're not hardcore about DNC and all, but the general, I-want-to-be-an-awesome-DNC group will normally put some of those merits somewhere else. TBH all the merits now are kinda meh. It's been proven already that 1/5 Fan/Saber Dance is basically the same as 5/5, minus the fact you can reapply it more often if say you need to cure yourself during Saber Dance. I'd probably take 5/5 closed position over 5/5NFR just because Presto makes it mostly pointless, but either isn't terrible. Building Flourish merits however, are an unforgivable sin. NFR -> flourishes -> WS -> Presto-> Steps says hi :X (can switch those around...normally have 5 FM's up when tanking not important stuff) I'll just leave this here i read that...best way to generalize a job ever edit: howait...thats not the DNC guide... thats just a post saying the exact thing ive been doing...except i dont use my FM's to SSC NFR -> flourishes -> WS -> Presto-> Steps says hi :X best solution is to go Step -> Building -> TP more -> Presto -> Step -> WS -> 2x round -> Reverse -> WS Did you even open the thread much less read it? Noone can be this ignorant Seriously I'm strongly suspecting troll Regardless I give up, it's like talking to a dyslexic wall Your witness nini in my case that i stated i already have the necessary TP...i just skipped the gaining TP part in your situation.
ive been reading this forum for a while..took a while with all the Q_Qing about waltz timers for 10 pages though
ohwait: you meant THAT forum...yea...ive read/glanced through pretty much all ofem...
and no im not ignorant....nor am i trolling. I know how to use my FM's i just dont list out pointless steps because i already have atleast 100 TP and dont do all the extra little things when im actually on DNC for stuff (if not tanking or bieng the support)
By Inuyasha 2011-09-08 20:47:50
2)i switched in and out as priorities required...if party was full and wherent bieng utter tards i could WS and do damage and if ***went bad switch out of DD mode and go back to heal. it wasnt that hard really I'm assuming you mean "using Seigan/Utsusemi", which invalidates the point of having a DNC present to begin with. In other words, your mediocre style was justified by the needs of the mediocre people you were healing, or not healing given that they weren't using Hasso as they should have been. nice assuming bro,
i meant not needing to heal them because everyone remained at full health or within acceptable percentages where i could easily cure them back. Seigan/UTsusemi wouldve helped with it more....but meh
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-09-08 20:49:06
You'll have to explain how your DDs were going balls to the wall yet somehow being smart about damage taken then, without wasting resources in other party slots.
By Inuyasha 2011-09-08 20:50:58
You'll have to explain how your DDs were going balls to the wall yet somehow being smart about damage taken then, without wasting resources in other party slots. cause i had good priorities? like healing them THEN going to DD and (if they went down again) heal again?
also: im talking like G.Colibri fights didnt last all but 5 seconds...so it was mostly healing...then DDing the start of the next mob (if i could even draw my weapons/target the mob)
Fenrir.Niniann
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2871
By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-09-08 21:17:41
You'll have to explain how your DDs were going balls to the wall yet somehow being smart about damage taken then, without wasting resources in other party slots. cause i had good priorities? like healing them THEN going to DD and (if they went down again) heal again?
also: im talking like G.Colibri fights didnt last all but 5 seconds...so it was mostly healing...then DDing the start of the next mob (if i could even draw my weapons/target the mob)
Alright look... There honestly isn't a situation (if done properly) where DDs aren't taking damage that DNC needs to heal. IF there is such a situation, you have too many mages, your DDs aren't going balls-to-the-walls, or some other inefficient setup.
I'm going to note if you can't target the mobs on colibri before it dies, you're doing a great disservice to your party. You can go ahead and claim they die too fast all you want, but I've managed 40k/hr parties at 75 on birds, and was able to engage each mob start to finish. It's called auto-attack and positioning yourself in a manner that allows you to engage the next mob as the puller brings it to you, without disengaging.
On Birds, if your party was going balls to the walls, and you were the sole healer, there's absolutely no way in *** hell you can manage WSing once in the party much less multiple times. This is assuming perfect gear too.
Carbuncle.Asymptotic
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2659
By Carbuncle.Asymptotic 2011-09-08 21:25:57
Law of Birds:
As the length of a FFXI forum discussion approaches infinity, the probability that the discussion will decline into one of Greater Colibri approaches 1.
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Fenrir.Niniann
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2871
By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-09-08 21:33:32
Carbuncle.Asymptotic said: »Law of Birds:
As the length of a FFXI forum discussion approaches infinity, the probability that the discussion will decline into one of Greater Colibri approaches 1.
Have my babies.
Leviathan.Novax
サーバ: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3826
By Leviathan.Novax 2011-09-08 21:34:29
Carbuncle.Asymptotic said: »Law of Birds:
As the length of a FFXI forum discussion approaches infinity, the probability that the discussion will decline into one of Greater Colibri approaches 1.
Have my babies.
That's cheating!
Carbuncle.Asymptotic
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2659
By Carbuncle.Asymptotic 2011-09-08 22:13:43
Carbuncle.Asymptotic said: »Law of Birds:
As the length of a FFXI forum discussion approaches infinity, the probability that the discussion will decline into one of Greater Colibri approaches 1.
Have my babies.
It's bad enough to push a watermelon out of a hole the size of a golf ball.
I can't imagine pushing a watermelon out of a hole the size of a stirrer straw thingy.
By Inuyasha 2011-09-08 22:51:50
You'll have to explain how your DDs were going balls to the wall yet somehow being smart about damage taken then, without wasting resources in other party slots. cause i had good priorities? like healing them THEN going to DD and (if they went down again) heal again? also: im talking like G.Colibri fights didnt last all but 5 seconds...so it was mostly healing...then DDing the start of the next mob (if i could even draw my weapons/target the mob) Alright look... There honestly isn't a situation (if done properly) where DDs aren't taking damage that DNC needs to heal. IF there is such a situation, you have too many mages, your DDs aren't going balls-to-the-walls, or some other inefficient setup. I'm going to note if you can't target the mobs on colibri before it dies, you're doing a great disservice to your party. You can go ahead and claim they die too fast all you want, but I've managed 40k/hr parties at 75 on birds, and was able to engage each mob start to finish. It's called auto-attack and positioning yourself in a manner that allows you to engage the next mob as the puller brings it to you, without disengaging. On Birds, if your party was going balls to the walls, and you were the sole healer, there's absolutely no way in *** hell you can manage WSing once in the party much less multiple times. This is assuming perfect gear too. your also assuming far too much...but ok.
also: this is where those NFR merits come into play....5 FM's for reverse when you cant really engage the mobs before they die.
サーバ: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-09-08 22:56:26
If her assumptions are false, you probably would have contributed more on a different job. Still doesn't support your position.
Here's your link
Here's the text
Greetings dancers! Here is some feedback from the development team in regards to your comments about the job adjustments concepts. Enjoy
Add new modes for dancers. Add dances that give sphere effects.
Since sphere effects are extremely strong and completely negate the opposite enfeebling effect, we won’t be implementing the sphere effect itself. However, we are planning to add something that gives your party members some kind of effect while continuing to consume your TP. As we are not at the stage where can give info on specific effects, we would love to hear your ideas.
Make it so Waltzes don’t all share the same timer.
We would need to completely remake the system as it was originally balanced to have a unified recast timer with limitations placed on the amount of TP consumed. If we removed that, the cure capabilities of the job would be greatly enhanced throwing the balance off between other healing magic. If we were to split the Waltz timers, we would have to raise the TP consumption as a trade-off.
Reduce the recast timer on Waltz. (Especially higher tier Curing Waltz and Healing Waltz)
Since Curing Waltz was designed to be different from Cure in the sense that it has advantages with short execution time and it is hard to interrupt, but on the flip side is difficult to use in quick succession, we do not have any plans to reduce the recast time further. Instead we wish for dancers to focus on specific tactics taking into account the levels of Waltz and use the most appropriate one for the situation.
Similarly for Healing Waltz, since it is possible to address a large variety of status ailments covered by na-related spells and Erase, the recast timer was set to be somewhat long.
Make it possible to use Healing Waltz on people outside of your party.
It would be necessary to look into not only Healing Waltz, but also extending Erase to people outside of your party. In the case that we decide to extend the effects of Erase to people outside of your party, we will make it possible for Healing Waltz, too.
Increase the effect of Animated Flourish.
We are looking into adjustments for this. We are considering making it so you can generate the same level of enmity as Provoke when consuming two finishing moves.
Increase the accuracy for Desperate Flourish.
We are exploring the direction of adding equipment that enhances the accuracy.
Make it so you can perform level 2-3 skill chains with Wild Flourish.
Comparing this to samurai’s Konzen-ittai, the recast timer is shorter and it has multiple uses so the effect itself was set rather low for balance purposes.
Make it so you can stack steps over level 5.
This would require us to look into the effects carefully. Since the effect of level 5 is currently very strong, we do not have any plans of increasing this at the moment.
Lengthen the effect duration for steps.
We are looking into the direction of making it so the duration gets longer at higher levels.
Make it so you can generate two finishing moves even after you have reached level 5.
It can be thought that the fundamental problem here is that in order to maintain the effect of the step you need to continuously use the same step. First we will revamp the step effect duration and determine how many times you can use a step in a single battle, and then make a decision based on that.
The idea is to be able to fight by using a variety of steps and not using the same one over and over just to maintain its effect.
Make Chocobo Jig an AoE effect.
Since there is no cost for Chocobo Jig the effect is set to be only for the dancer.
In the event that we were to extend the effect to party members, there would be some room to explore this if there were TP consumption or some other trade-off.
Make it so you can overwrite Spectral Jig.
Please understand that this is the same as magic and items and it is following the rule that in order to re-apply the effect you need to remove it first.
Irrelevant stuff:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11584-%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A7%E3%83%96%E8%AA%BF%E6%95%B4%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BB%E3%83%97%E3%83%88%EF%BC%9A%E8%B8%8A%E3%82%8A%E5%AD%90/page6
It's up on the Japanese forums. The whole thing looks pretty grim, but I won't make specific comments until I'm done translating it for myself. My Japanese is rusty though, so I apologize ^_^ English one should be up later today (usually around 7est)
Questions Addressed:
1.) Want to add a new mode/sphere effect dance?
2.) I don't want to share waltz recast timers.
They pull out both system-related woes and balance related woes. Simply splitting recast timers would make waltzes too powerful compared to other forms of recovery magic (apparently - this is what I've been saying is on their minds all along lol). Something about splitting might require substantial increases in TP cost if they did do it?
3.) I want waltz recast reduced.
Basically they pull that waltz can't be interrupted, so they don't want to decrease recast timers. They want us to use 1-3 for regular waltzes and IV + V "situationally." The recast on healing is similarly "deliberately high." -_-
4.) I would like to use healing waltz outside of PT.
5.) I would like to increase the effectiveness of Animated Flourish.
6.) I would like to increase the hit rate of Desperate Flourish.
7.) I would like wild flourish to do higher tier skillchains.
They draw a comparison to Konzen-Ittai. They set the effect of Wild lower than Konzen-Ittai because Konzen-Ittai has a significantly longer recast, which makes sense, really.
8.) We want more than 5 stages of step.
This is really disappointing. They already consider the effect of level 5 daze to be very high, so they probably won't increase the potency like I listed in my suggestion thread :(
9.) I want to increase step duration.
10.) I want to earn 2 finishing moves when step level 5 is present.
11.) I want chocobo jig to affect the party.
12.) I want to be able to overwrite spectral jig.
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