Whats Your DD Gear And Whats Your Best DE (on Ep Or Over)

Well, if you say they invite dncs for haste samba, as long as they provide that, who cares what if the choose to DD more than support heal?

Because the support heal is more valuable than the shitty DD they can provide. Like I said, it's the most important thing, not the only thing. If DNCs could only support heal and damage, then nobody would invite them, nor take them seriously.

I do, because that's the other thing I invite a DNC for. Do we really have to go over this for the hundredth time? RDM can't solo heal a Hasso meripo. DNC bridges the gap. If the DNC WS's, that's TP they don't have and potentially need. lolbirds/dyna fodder/ein fodder/etc all you want, berserked DDs go down fast when you least expect it. If you lose nothing by it then by all means WS, but if somebody goes down because you didn't have sufficient TP it's pretty clear the gamble wasn't worthwhile.

I play with really good real mages that aren't being botted. They actually tell me not to cure when I ask. I heal when I'm with bad mages, I DD when I'm with good mages. I heal in emergencies, I dd to keep chain while healing sometimes, etc. I adapt to the situation. There's many ways to play dnc, it's a hybrid, only playing it ONE WAY and thinking that ONE WAY is the only way to go is limiting yourself and making the game less fun/enjoyable than it could be, imo.

I accept your way is a viable way to play DNC and merit, as I accept the other way as fine as well.

More than one ways to do things, I dont think my way is the only/best way.

Again, the DD a dnc can provide is so shitty, nobody gives a ***. Hell, even if the rdm has mp enough to do everything, I'd prefer you having tp ready to get an attack down off a DD more quickly since erase does have a recast timer.

Then you have too many mages present. Merits have a level of balance between the two since you obviously can't just drop the RDM, but elsewhere I'd say let a mage come DD.

If you've already stripped down your mage slots, I can only assume people aren't fulltiming Hasso or your mages aren't casting Dia II(III).

Neither do I, my point still stands, even if yo udon't need the healing, the amount of DD dnc adds is prettys hitty and would never be one of the reasons I'd consider to invite a dnc.

Haste samba is a definite.

A side factor may or may not be the extra heals (depending on the mage)

The amount of damage the dnc can deal is never a factor when I go to invite one, however.

If healing isn't needed, haste samba + dd adds more dmg than haste samba + sitting at 300% TP :/

I only have to heal with bad mages who somehow run out of mp hasting everyone and dia2ing every mob, having no mp left to actually cure.

Show me an endgame situation where that occurs with minimal mage backline and fulltime Hasso.

Again, you're not reading.

If healing isn't needed, sure it is more damage, but dnc's dmg is so shitty, it's not a factor I ever look at.

For example when I look for a dnc.

5/5 haste samba: X? I won't invite you

If healing will be needed and I feel you won't be able to fulfill the tastk? I'm not inviting you.

Are you up to the first two tasks, and do not have an awesome DD build and WS set? I'll still invite you because loldnc dmg anyways, not important to me.

There's no "DD build". You use the same gear you DD in to gain tp to heal...

You simply hit saber dance, c'mon now.

Also a "WS" set is like, mostly gear you need for a step acc/desperate flourish acc set anyways..

Meaning, I don't give a ***if you have a dancing edge build worth a damn. As for saberdance, you'd still have to cancel it whenever a Wivre pops up because I DO expect you to do healing watlz w/ a RDM if we don't have a whm for esuna.

Is it really that hard to grasp what tiger is saying? He's not saying sit at 300tp, he's saying he doesn't invite dnc for dmg period, if they have the ability to DD and do the 2 jobs he DID invite them for then that's fine of them to DD, he just doesn't invite them for the sole purpose and only purpose to DD.

Personally I have a more mixed feeling, IF you can DD and keep up your haste/cures/erase fine, but as Night has said if ur in a pt where ppl can fulltime hasso a rdm cant heal that, haste and dia period... they can't. The DD would have to use Seigan lowering dmg. Only way they can fulltime hasso is if they have a 2nd person able to heal, which the best option is dnc so they can haste samba too.

Gotta wave that hybrid banner brah.
Still waiting.

(I've seen it done before so it's not like I don't think it works, I just don't think it works in the situations where you do)

Hmmm, well I'll jump into this whole debate just for a minute because I think Kozuki is being misunderstood as much as you guys think she's misunderstanding you. But I honestly rarely use my DNC for anything party-related, so maybe what I say doesn't mean much D;

I've merited three times on DNC total... First party not really worth mentioning, was two years ago and I was gimp (to sum it up, 500-1k DEs with really, really, really trash gear since that's all DNC had back then--I'm not even sure my "WS" gear was much more than subbing in a Warwolf for Swift Belt). I don't really remember much about the party itself.

Second party was a LS party 1.5 years ago. Adaberk GA WAR fulltimed Hasso. No Seigan whatsoever. MNK/WAR had Spharai. COR/RNG was full out damage with Joy TP build + Martial Gun but forgot Walahra Turban for TP build. I don't know who our mage was, but probably a WHM/SCH as that's what my LS prefers. I did have to help heal the WAR, but parse ended at

WAR/SAM 40%
MNK/WAR 28% (probably attributed to his 75% accuracy)
DNC/NIN 16%
COR/RNG 15%

I'd consider these "above average" people for the time, as in better than a typical level 75 seeking for party. I was the poorest person in party for sure; the other three melee were rich... MNK had no Salvage gear, COR had 5/5 (not that half of it matters for a COR). As for myself, I likely had Azoth/Joy, Black Tathlum, Antares Harness, Etoile Tights and full Enkidu's at the time. Possibly 8 dagger and 4 sword merits, but if so then I doubt I was eating sushi (85% acc), or I had worse gear than I can recall.

Third party was random merit party one week ago. WHM/SCH healer. She was idling at 700+ MP for pretty much the whole party except when she rebuffed which brought her to 550, so I rarely tossed out a heal unless someone got slept, or when she went afk for like 15 minutes. I don't know if melee were using Seigan or what, didn't bother to ask. All I know is the DRG was really gimp... ((Edit: Just asked SAM if she was full timing Seigan, said "nope lol, full time hasso")). I doubt WHM was using Dia II, though. And my WS was meh, Evis for ~500-1400; DE was doing 700-900.

That being said, I heal when it's needed. When it's not, I use my TP quite aggressively (with Reverse Flourish + 4/5 Finishing Moves ready after every WS of course) because otherwise it's either me sitting with full TP or WHM sitting with full MP and I don't expect the WHM to toss out Holy (although yes, Dia II would've been nice). From my experience, mages typically stop after the tenth "erase please."

As for DNC DD, it's obviously not good, but I don't think it's bad at all for a support job, and as much as I expect a COR to put out decent damage, I likewise would expect as much from a DNC. Compared to gimp melees, which a random party will always have its fair share of, it can definitely pick up the pace.

And as for DNC healing...I don't know. It's definitely not necessary to go all-out for your average merit party in my experience. But maybe your merit parties are really different. Me, personally, I would never want to merit with a RDM if at all avoidable. I don't think anyone in my LS would want to. They always seem to be out of MP.

Another note, I typically "voke" the mobs at the very beginning of a fight as well. Even if it saves just one hit, it's still something. But I do that for the BRDs, not really for the melee...

Soooooo, as much as I hate people who are like "my DNC DD is awesome!!" I don't care much for the people who say all it can do is cure. It can contribute in several different ways. And I'm not really arguing anything here, just moreso trying to play the middle ground?

That mnk was garbitch :(

Don't think anybody's said that all DNC can do is cure.

Gotta agree with Tiger, that MNK's pretty sad... Crab Sushi would have helped tons.

Correct, just said their damage is ***and their damage is not the reason you should invite one. Again, it's nice icing on the cake sure, but not an important factor in the least.

Agreed. I'll be leveling DNC soon... you can bet I'll make efforts to maximize my DPS and that definitely includes having a solid WS set, but if my TP is better spent on cures than WS then you bet I'll take the hit on the parse. Let the heavyweights do work.

I read that as in DNC shouldn't WS because of the possibility you'll need it for a cure before they can rebuild TP, and the damage wouldn't be worth it.

IMO, you aren't sacrificing anything when you WS if you're playing right (watching mage's MP, saving Reverse Flourish/FM).

Edit:
And yeah, I think I remember the WAR telling the MNK at the end that he should've used crab sushi instead of meat ~_~

Key word was potentially. Obviously you should use your best judgement as to whether or not it's safe to WS. I don't have a problem with DNC WSing as appropriate.

EDIT: Even with meat he shouldn't have parsed that low :x I honestly figured he was eating no food at all.

Just make sure you don't WS on wivres, cause if I don't get my erase ASAP (and no rdm can't erase 2 ppl at once!) then you pissed me off cause you got some siblings, and I don't like it!

Stop meriting with RDMs! I'll even rebuy my WHM gear and go WHM for you if I move to Sylph ("if").

Edit:
And Night, you're right, I read that post again and noticed the last line. I just felt kinda bad for Kozuki, so I thought I'd post ;<

I get whms if they're seeking in preference, but I take rdm if no whms avail. Also, yes, move!

Kozuki is fine. Despite our dnc talk on the forums, we actually get along pretty well. She's borrowing my jambiya+1, lol

Tiger and I all have these debates on forums but its just forums, lol We get alone well in game.