AGI On DNC

I posted accurate numbers showing when Joyeuse is or is not the best option for TP gain. The numbers you posted were not accurate. If you are below 85% dagger acc and meleeing on DNC, you will benefit more from 2 daggers(this is not subjective, it's easily provable with mathematics and I am in no way opposed to dual daggers). What I am opposed to is using DNC on mobs that are high enough level to require that, as having a BRD rotating parties will in all likelihood do better for you. It depends on your buffs, but with what my shell uses for standard(march march hunters chaos dnc) and sushi, DNC can break that accuracy threshhold in wing three Einherjar as well as Dynamis - Xarcabard. As these are the 2 strongest fodder mob situations, which are the places DNC excels, it stands to reason that DNC should about always be using Joyeuse.
I do not think DNC is a joke. Whenever I do Dynamis, Einherjar, or merits I have a DNC in the best melee's party(and as I am the shell leader, it's my choice and I believe it to be the most efficient use of the slot). I occasionally bring them to Salvage as well, though it varies with zone and setup. I have nothing against DNC, DRG, or even PUP.. I just favor efficiency. DNC is not the most efficient job to use in situations where you're fighting high level monsters.
You don't know anything because you're posting nonsense. The shitty gear just stands to reason.
This gimpshit setup ties the accuracy threshhold on colibri using crab sushi(going by other guy's numbers, not even mine!). If you use real food(squid sushi+1 will give you an additional 13 acc for dagger and 11 for sword over crab and is not that expensive.. dnc shouldn't get it's food stolen more than once every 30-40 min if you have competent melee that provoke), even if your gear is this bad, you will be better off using a Joyeuse.

Maybe you'll get it if I do this. I am not saying that Dagger/Joyeuse beats Dagger/Dagger below a certain point in accuracy. I am saying that if a monster is high enough level for you to be below that point in accuracy, it's something your DNC shouldn't be meleeing(HNM/ETC). Change jobs.

Let me see if I get this right... back half of page 3 plus the current page looks like this:

OP makes a statement and is refuted with support due to the statement involving non-viable situations. OP can't handle being wrong and thus resorts to strawmen, no u, u mad, and basically calling Eriuddo a no-lifer.

loooooooooooool

NO U!

NO UUUUUUUUU!

You said Joyeuse was not the best offhand based on non-viable situations. Yes, you can say it's not the best based on those situations... but who cares? They're non-viable. It's not even difficult to comprehend that they aren't viable... too many whiffs, hits for 0, and hits for so little damage as to be nothing but an additional source of TP for the target mob.

Nobody's mad here by the way, lol.

My situation is viable. If you are using fully meritted saber dance with cinq offhand you will tp faster than joytoy. And that is with completely capped acc on both swd and dagger. Now if you want to get picky and say any situation where a dnc can afford to saber dance isn't worth bringing a dnc to maybe

noone in here talks about an astrolabe(ammo) or cinquedea (offhand) ?

If you've got that kind of accuracy and don't need to provide curing support, by all means Saber Dance away. I'm not arguing that point at all.

Care to give a list of such situations Dasva? Apparently they aren't hard to comprehend and are many many in number.

Only going to happen in like ... a merit party with outside healing. If your melee don't take damage and you don't need to cure them, then have them /sam and fulltime hasso. If you're at an event and have additional healers, have some of them change to DD or BRD. Any of these will net your group more damage over time than a DD DNC.

There's really only one time where I used Saber Dance with any frequency. That was in a (I could be wrong, correct me if I am etc you should know which I was talking about) COR BRD DNC probably WAR DRK WAR party. I'm pretty sure they were /sam and full-timing hasso, it was just we had two outside healers (Milkman + Hex?) so I was essentially useless. Not really a common situation, though.

Any situations where people aren't taking butt loads of dmg and you have a real mainhealer. Like some lowman events or roving ones like nyzle. Merit pts. If your rdm can't keep up with healing with refresh composure convert sanction 1-2 gear refresh and cor or brd refresh then fine backup heal.

And the situations don't have to be many in number they just have to be 1 really for the statement joytoy isn't always the best offhand to exist. And that still doesn't factor in the 40 or so less acc and att that your joytoy will have. Not having to get that extra 40 acc lets you do things like um stop eatting sushi and get even more att. Or wear even more haste gear. Just swapping a few acc peices around to go from 15% gear haste which is what I see alot of dncs in to 25% (which really you don't have to sacrifice anywhere near 40 acc to do that) is a 33% increase in attack speed if you have haste samba, haste, double march up.

DD DNC won't beat another job in nyzul. DD DNC doesn't belong in lowman limbus, and will be healing in einherjar or dynamis. What other fodder mobs are there? It's only good in a couple salv zones and won't be dding..
hmm.. not sure where i recommended sacrificing haste? go look at my dnc a page or 2 ago ... i blatantly said dagger/dagger wins in some situations, it just isn't particularly useful all things considered because essentially all the situations dnc would go with dagger/dagger are situations where dnc is not a desired job

I wouldn't say many dnc sit at 15% haste to gain acc.. i have 24%. You imply 25% as if it's easy to get dusk gloves+1 and vbelt(I have one, missing the other, will buy eventually but acting like it's commonplace is HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE).

I never said DD dnc beats any DD job. Thats for the is dnc a DD thread. The question was if there was a situation where joy toy isn't the best offhand.

And yes I do see alot of dncs in 15% haste. And lets face it you aren't capping acc on the swd in that 24% haste without good sushi. Not even sure if you do then. Hell not sure if you can even cap acc on the dagger in that gear with pizza.

And I didn't say it was common I said it was possible

i'm capping acc on the dagger(overshooting, actually) and sword is way more than high enough to outdo a second dagger.. if you're going to rant about how expensive squid sushi+1 is, just lol

No it has nothing to do about how much sushi cost lol, so much as being able to eat something with att on it. Being able to eat pizza is rather nice. Especially when you consider that the swd is already at 40 less att or so. Or of course putting more haste in to maintained capped acc.

Anyways more non saberdance math. Assuming 20% DW no Stp or haste since it would affect them both the same without any double attack:

Ermine's + Cinquedea is 350 delay.

That would be 4.67 seconds and 4.67 tp per hit. Or about 2tp/sec

joytoy +ermines is 418 delay

That is 5.573 seconds and 4.893 tp per hit. Or about 1.745tp/sec

I already calculated ermine/cinq 2tp/sec while ermine/joy toy was 1.745.



For joy toy to overcome that an average of 1.29... times as many hits need to connect with that joy toy than the dagger.

According to wiki joytoy is 45% chance to double att. So 47.25 with brutal

So assuming you have capped dag acc 100 attack rounds would yeiled 105 swings with the offhand cinq 99.75 which connect. Same 100 attack rounds will yeild 147.25 swings with the joytoy

Number of hits require to beat /cinq tp: 1.29*99.5= 128.335

Accuracy required: 128.335/147.25= 87.15%

In the hypothetical situation where the inflection point of 55% or so acc is met for a second Dagger's acc to beat a Joyeuse, on a DNC built optimally for it (8 Sword ect.), the actual answer almost always tends to be: "doesn't matter what you use offhand as long as you have the mainhand acc to land steps/samba proc", since your overall contribution will be anything but DDing. Not playing the "lolchangejobs" card, but really a lot of the time, on something you have that bad of an hit rate on, your major; daresay only, contribution of note to the party/alliance will be steps and Haste Samba. Which is what his entire point is.

Yes, 100% Saber Dance ALWAYS ensures that Daggerx2 wins, that fact can't be disputed; his issue is trying to find a practical situation to your hypothetically accurate statement that Dagger/Dagger is better under Saberdance/55% Sword acc.

In reality, 90% of the time MY OWN Dancer sees light of day, with the merit setup/gear I have, Joyeuse is the optimal choice offhanding on the mobs I'm fighting, the remaining 10% being the outlying hypotheticals where I'm soloing things that miss me so much I can 100% Saber, or very low man (co-)tanking.

someone gets it, can we make babies plz

Take's alot more acc than 55% for offhand joy toy to tp less even without saber dance. More like 87%. The only way for 55% swd acc to equal the tp gain of offhanding cinq instead is you also assume your dagger is only at 57% acc. Sorry somehow I don't see that happening given the 46 skill lvl difference between the 2. Hell where are you getting that 55% from?


Even with capped acc on both ermine/joy only beats ermine/cinq by by 7% in terms of raw tp gain. Think you need to go back and actually look at /cinq since it makes a huge difference in raw tp gain. Or maybe stop assuming that both combos gain tp at the same rate before double att. Cause they don't. Not even close. Or Idk actually look at the numbers I did. Try to find a flaw in them.

This.

Silly people thinking that new NMs actually drop ***~

They do if you kill them 30+ times... Which is why I won't go after any other set items.

So the real practical question now is to find the evasion/level mobs that DNC caps Dagger ACC out on that also has your Sword ACC below 85% or so. In theory, yes you're correct. But in reality, in the merit situation where DNC is actually wanted/excels, Joyeuse will actually have that percentage of ACC.

That said, Haste actually doesn't effect the two setups equally, just a small complaint with the math. It actually tilts it back in favour of Joy. Not by much more than 2~3% Acc required, but its significant enough to warrant a mention, think I ended up calcing it to be 85% rather than 87~88% acc with a 34% Haste setup. In perspective/applying math to reality, good sushi/steps/merits/gear on Colibri (i.e the only thing I'm saying you should use sub Joy on....) pushes it up around 90%, the point where Joy is outright superior.

Then again, like I said, I was never argueing that Dagger/Joy is better overall, I most certainly concur with you that Dagger/Dagger is the way to go after Joy acc suffers to that degree. Just my own practical application of the situation is lacking, due to the fact that I'm always wanted on more conventional jobs for any fight of that magnitude...and if I did, I'd Dagger x2, no doubt of it.

I'm not disputing the math you've put up there, just happens to be the case that the majority of my Dancer gametime is actually based around the exact scenario your math lays out where Joy is, in fact, better. So we're entirely in agreement; I wasn't attempting to be inflammatory.

I blame being bored out of my mind at Ix'DRG on the 55% thing, didn't double check properly and just copied a mis-typing of 85% I made an hour beforehand throughout the whole post, can only apologise for the misconception, sorry. XD

How does haste affect them differently? DW sure since will effect rate of tp gain differently with different delays. But haste should affect everything the same except maybe rounding differences I guess?

Well still even in merits you are on lolibri with lol sushi you are barely pushing better. Without swd merits... or a more evasive mob, or if you wanted to do alot of math the difference eating pizza and the lower att on the swd could make.

Either way very best case scenario joy toy barely wins. Even being able to just saberdance a little here and there and take it off when you need to cure. If you are unable to do that for any meaningful amount of time I'd imagine you aren't gunna really wanna ws at which point cinqs latent 5 Stp will actually need to be accounted for.

At that point it is way too much math. Someone who has finally gotten Cinq to drop should test it. Or I guess I could when I start lvling dnc soon

I've been too obsessed with Scylla. Killed Cinq's NM once, haven't bothered since. I'll let you know if I get either. :x

Haste is a percentage deduction from delay, ergo 34% reduction of 418 is a comparatively bigger decrease than 34% of 350. On the understanding that 50% Haste being 50% delay(2x attack rate) and 66% being 33% delay(3x attack rate).

The relative decrease from 418 is larger than the decrease of 350 delay, thus Dagger/Joy is "faster" in direct comparison to Dagger/Cinq @ 0% Haste. Or so I am led to understand. Dual Wield doesn't effect this, due to DW lowering the TP floor, but Haste lowers higher delays by a comparatively larger amount, without altering the TP gain.

Editing in a more clear/extreme example:

SAM under the effect of 50% Haste only with Engetsuto dly drops from 480x(50/100)= 240 delay reduction

DNC under effect of 50% Haste with Azoth(loleasiermath)= 210(50/100)= 105 delay reduction