AGI On DNC

Better than Cinquedea or Papilio Kirpan? Especially with saber dance up?

Okay, not counting new items because I haven't really looked into them. All I know is Scylla is like an HNM with only the one good drop, and that Qutrub NM killed me in two hits on SCH when I was looking for Warhorse Hoofprint.


As for why Joyeuse is good, yes you receive reduced ACC and yes sword has slightly longer delay. But it has 45% double attack rate which is 45% higher attack frequency (Less with Saber Dance of course), 45% more TP gained from your offhand weapon, more TP gained from both weapons, and higher DMG to reduce the frequency of hitting for 0. Add on to that the fact that you should really be using Suppanomimi anyway so you would still get added ACC/Attack from that for your offhand weapon.

Basically, for Joyeuse to fall behind any other option, you would have to lose 90 ACC going from a dagger to a sword. Since that will obviously never happen, Joyeuse will always lead to better TP gain unless you have 0 sword skill or something.

If you have no dagger merits, full sword merits, and never use saberdance, sure. Other than that, nope.

Partial to Adder Jambiyah myself, main handed. Have an Azoth, as a placeholder for Ermine's, if I have the luxury of being able to use Saber Dance. I'm usually COR BRD DNC 3xDD merits whenever I do get DNC out to play though, to dont tend to see much use of it.

Such a difference w/ cinq and joy in delay that in overall number of attacks I can't remember which one but i did the math a long time ago. One was SLIGHTLY ahead of the other, like literally 1 attack more than the other (not sure which) but when it's that close, and acc isn't capped on either, dagger wins, easily.

For example

Jamb+1/Cinq

Jamb+1/Joy

194 + 156 = 350

194 + 224 = 418

We'll assume 50% proc on joy

W/ brutal earring, we get 1.05 attack rounds from jamb+1 and 1.525 attack rounds from joy.
1.05 + 1.525 = 2.575 attacks per round

1/(350/418) = 19.4% increase in attack speed. Means for every 1 attack round w/ jamb+1/joy, you get 1.194 attack rounds w/ Jamb+1/Cinq

w/ brutal 1.05 from jamb+1, 1.05 from cinq
2.1 attacks per round. In the same amount of delay as jamb+1/Joy
2.1 x 1.194 = 2.5074 attacks in the same amount of delay.

2.575-2.5074 = .0676 increase in number of attacks in the same amount of delay and the more tp/hit from higher delay isn't going to beat the huge acc diff between dagger and sword in TP gain.

Then if you use saberdance at all, joyuse drops big time.

Say we have Suppa an no other DW so -20% from DW. Assume merited saber dance +brutal keeps you at an average of 43% DW. Joy toy has an 45% proc rate. So rate at which joytoy itself would double attack is 68.65%. Or 56.825% chance overall for that attack round. As you can already see not much more than without joy toy thanks to saber dancing.

Well let's see Ermine's + Cinquedea is 350 delay. And combine 59 dmg.

That would be 4.67 seconds and 4.67 tp per hit.

So about 2 tp/sec. With no haste double attack store tp etc and assuming the latent isn't active which is only above 100% tp.

With double attack that is more like 2.9 tp/sec

Dps with DW only would be 12.64. With double attack 18.33

joytoy +ermines is 418 delay. And combine 69 dmg.

That is 5.573 seconds and 4.893 tp per hit. So about 1.7 tp/sec with nothing. Add on double attack and joy toy procs and it is more like 2.75.... tp/sec.

Dps with DW only would be 12.3. With double attack 19.43.

So joytoy is about 5.5% slower tp gain. But about 6% more dps.


Of course this doesn't account for the sacrifices in haste you will have to make so you can hit with a weapon that you have 46 less 41 with suppa skill with lol D rank weapon.

quotes broken and too lazy to manually type it out.

@veg very informative and well thought out thank you for that .

Just an example of joy vs saberdance. Any situation where u can fulltime saberdance (DD dnc for example) lv 1 saberdance is an average of 30 DA.

Let's see how this effects a dagger.

5% DA from brutal, so on e-tail, 105 attacks in 100 attack rounds

Now we're going to 135 attacks in 100 attack rounds

135/105 = 28.57% increase


On joy, 30% DA = 15% DA because half of the time, it can't even proc because it doesn't stack w/ joy's effect.

In 100 attack rounds, Joy averages 150 attacks, w/ saberdance it averages 165

165/150 = 10% increase.

Dagger gets almost tripple the benefit that joy does out of saberdance.

Repeat the math with Behemoth Knife +1 or wtfever the lowest-delay dagger was for DNC, previous to the update that contained all those new NMs.

My comparison was solely in TP gain (healing dancer) for the cinq vs joy. 2 DD daggers can out DD subbing cinq in DD dancer and even the daggers w/ the higher delay, saberdance evens the playing field when it comes to overall damage with joy, without even looking at the -acc and attack.

Not counting new items doesn't mean sNot counting new items doesn't mean ***.

You may as well say let's count before dnc ever came out. What was then is not now. Joy is not CURRENTLY the best offhand, which is what my post was about. You can say joy did w/e in the past, totally irrelevant to how people should aim to gear currently.

Edit: and even then that was w/o saberdance. W/e the old lowest delay dagger can still keep up w/ joy during saberdance

@ Veg

The number of attacks may well be similar, but the attacks don't give the same TP, which is what I think you're alluding to at the end, but its still a massive understatement. I think its actually +2 TP on a Joy double attack round vs Dagger/Cinq DA round. TP over time heavily goes in favour of Dagger/Joy. But ONLY on things VT and below, where the acc gap isn't as huge, as stated.

That said, I still wouldnt be using Joy in a situation where a second dagger is more than 8~10% above it in ACC. Which happens to be.... most everything IT+ in the game, even @ 8/8 Sword. Not even going to bother stating the obvious about Saber Dance...

Like I said, my math was for any situation you're not capping acc on dagger. When you're not capping acc on dagger, you're capping acc on neither dagger nor joy.

in that case, the acc difference will be in full force, which puts things way more in favor of dagger/dagger than the extra tp/hit does for dagger/joy.

Anything that you can cap acc (nyzul and easy things like that) I'm a fan of joy (if i'm not going to be fulltiming saberdance)

Also Papilio Kirpan is just sick for dnc if you can get it. A 23 delay then blau but 3 more dmg without latent or 2 with enough to kick it into another fstr cap. Has the same trigger and almost the same amount on hidden effects

Yea, I like it. For DD dnc, I'd go Papilio/Etail (or in my case jamb+1). For healing, I'd go Papilio/Cinq

Of course, there's also the synergy dagger, which is pretty bad *** as well.

Its ok, Veg, I know you would use Joy in most the same situations I do, was just pointing out that you were understating the TP over time almost as much as he was overstating the overall utility of Joy. Almost.

For DD DNC, I'd still go with Adder(+1) somewhere over Etail, that evasion down proc acting for everyone in party/alliance with you is a huge plus for it.

Yeah synergy... so many bad evoliths. So much fighting the same nm over and over and over /wrist. I have like 1k scylds now

Oh definitely. I was just being realistic though. Gl w/ Adder+1. If i was going to go for the true best, I would have said augmented adder+1 w/ 2 DMG (have seem 2 DMG on h2h and gkt so figured possibility for dagger as well) offhand with Mythic for mainhand.

I think the 3 things you can put on Machismo are... WS Rhombusx2 and a Magic Skill/Conserve MP one....at least if its the same as Sarissa+Concordia that I helped on. I'm not sure you can put anything on it that would in any way benefit DNC.

nah the Machimso has some good ones. I coulda sworn i seen one w/ dagger WS triple attack +3-6 and a bunch of attack for ws as well ect.

As someone who doesnt know whit about synergy, do you control the stats that go onto the items or is it random like FoV augments?

Did someone say augmented adder!?!

Yeah those are the two WS slots I was talking about. The third one is a slot for like.. Conserve MP on Earth based Enhancing magic, crap like that, thats situational for RDM.

You can control them, which you put on, but I think you farm NM for the available augments, then can choose whether you want to put it on or not. So if you get something you don't like, you don't have to get a new wep, can just try the NM again for a new augment.

Or something like that.