(Bahamut) Ironman Challenge

Hey, everyone!

Some friends of mine have started new characters on Bahamut with the intent of limiting their resources in an effort to find new solutions to problems already solved by QOL. They plan on hitting Lv.99 for endgame as normal, but with some self-imposed rules, first and foremost being no Trusts.

Here's the full set of rules:
They've already got about 6 people messing around with it, including streamers JesterBuns and Laruni_Caitsith. I'm not taking part in it, but I've offered to fill slots for EXP parties and other events as required.

The more, the merrier!

Interesting. I do have a mule that needs to be 99 to use the stacks of silver vouchers he has.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi//blockaid

This sounds fun!

What if it cost $1 tho?

Too soon.

I like the idea, but it needs a different name. 'Ironman' is already well defined as having a specific rule set. Maybe just borrow from the WoW community and call it hardcore?

I know I know!

Crystal Warrior!!

Well its on Bahamut, so its $12.95

It would be $1 if it's an alt character on an existing account, though ;)

touché

Or 13.95, depends how you look at it :D

Then how about the Ironma'am challange?

One life. You die, you delete your character and start again.


[Insert pronoun here] vs World. This is a solo challenge. No grouping, trusts or otherwise.


No external buffs. If your job can cast the spell you're fine, but /blockaid on full-time. Field and Ground tomes are off limits as well.


No consumables. This is food, potions and elixirs, remedies and drops. This also includes scrolls.


No professions. HELM would be allowed.


Common weapons and armor only. You may NOT equip any weaponss or armor with +stat listed. DEF onry! If you get leaping boots drop, you sell it to vendor and carry on in your leather highboots.


No auction or trade. You may buy from or sell to vendors, but limited to items and gear that are abide by previous terms.


Advanced jobs are allowed provided you unlock them and transition immediately, but sub job is not allowed.


Any missions would have to be completed at or below any prior level caps (RotZ, COP, ect.)



This would basically be the Ironman Challenge in FFXI.

Ironman is about stamina and determination while doing simple stuff. It's not about limiting yourself. In FFXI it would be 12h of MLing, making full farm of lv 90 Verethragna from base item then farming 150k tokens.

12 years ago I was farming Abyssea for 32hours non stop (with eating/toilet breaks ofc) on 4 accounts (mostly controlling all of them manually by alt tabbing). I slept for 18hours after that..

WRONG. Ironman would be taking the Infinity Gauntlet from Thanos and snapping to get thru ody v25 and all prime weapons.

I should probably point out that I came up with neither the rules nor the name. One of my friends took the Ironman Challenge idea from Reddit (or somewhere) and modified it to where they thought it'd be the most fun and rewarding.

It's about scouring all of the old, abandoned content to find new solutions along the way to the new content. They're farming NMs, cracking brown caskets, gathering, crafting, and so on. Trying to find the optimal use out of everything they come across.

I'd imagine it's like playing on a 75-era private server, only you can use that same character in modern-era content once you've had your fill of it.

Normal triathlon-
Swim: 1500 m (almost 1 mile)
Bike: 40 km (24.8 miles)
Run: 10 km (6.2 miles)

Ironman-
Swim: 2.4 miles
Bike: 112 miles
Run: 26.2 miles (full marathon)

The challenge as it relates to MMOs is about staying alive while being under a very limiting set of rules. Already challenging content made more difficult.


'Fun and rewarding' is the polar opposite of Ironman. It's meant to be brutal and punishing on purpose. Like, literally designed so that many people can't even finish it.


That's not what you're doing here and I understand why. You shuold also understand why this shouldn't be called ironman challenge.

This is basically Runescape Ironman rules, which has caught on in other MMOs due to how it limits you from the systems in place that make it an MMO. (minus the no death rule or limited deaths rule)

It's a novel experience the first few times you see or do it, but at some point it's just like, "Ok, if that's your breed of fun, have at it." imo.

Like there's a dude doing Ironman challenge for FFXIV that has a whole youtube channel revolving around it. Everyone knew the logical endpoint of his challenge was Crystal Tower raids, but by using the, "You may work with other Ironmen" rule, he was able to do it.

In XI, you'll be able to go a lot farther. It'll just be slow. But I'm willing to wager even without Trusts, you'll be able to get to 55 no problemo. Since you're allowed to make gil with sparks, you can get all spells you need for Red Mage/White Mage really easily, giving you full access to really good jobs right off the bat. Once you unlock Dancer, it'll be even smoother sailing.

Once you hit 55 though, you're gonna need that, "Team up with other Ironmen" rule in order to beat the level 55 capstone mobs in Xarcabard. They're incredibly nasty even with Trusts, so that'll be a whole thing. Once you make it past that, though, you're home free.

This challenge's rules on buying/gearing though, that's going to cause some problems since the best gear you'll want will come from NMs. Depending on how many Ironmen get going, this may lead to fiercer competition over old NMs.

It doesn't look like there's a limit on Conquest related gear, so that's probably your best go to gear.

If I were gonna participate in this, I think I'd start in Windurst and stay Windurstian in order to get the Mercenary Captain's set for Rdm and other leather daddy type jobs. Assuming I ever got past the level 55 genkai, then I'd just keep grinding solo until I got to 75. I'd enter Abyssea then, earn Cruor to get the level 78 Cruor sets, and then I'd ride those to 99 where I'd then earn Bayld to buy Bayld gear, since that also seems to not be off the table.

Once that is acquired, soloing all old story contents and things is pretty easy until like SoA. Or does the challenge just end when you get 99? What's the end point? Is there an endpoint?

The whole thing started with Buns deciding he wanted to try retail again. Having beaten all of RotZ and CoP with his Lv.75-capped character using nothing but Trusts, he wanted to get to Lv.99 and try endgame. Only, he wanted to do so on a new character because he wanted to save his Lv.75-capped character for ToAU as well.

He got started, deciding right away that he wanted to see how far he could go with no Trusts. Another of our friends, EmpressKiko, joined Buns with his self-imposed handicap. A few other spectators saw how much fun they were having and decided to join as well. These are the rules they agreed on.

That said, I'm not sure what their end goal is. Their rules could extend into Lv.99 endgame without much issue. They're allowing themselves to team up with others outside of the challenge, provided they aren't using Trusts to fill any slots. If anything, endgame would be easier than the grind to 99.

Something like this would actually make it challenging. For anyone who wasn't around for the 75 era, 70% of the playerbase (those who had completed at least Ch. 1 of CoP) never actually made it to Sea...


Link to official rules if anyone wanted to know or to try and adapt a version for FFXI out of them.

I did something similar to this once. Granted, I didn't stop myself from using the Adventuring Fellow, but I did stop myself from having access to Trusts, sub jobs, Sparks, and Accolades entirely.

My experience with that generally taught me that under those restrictions, if you insist on having no stat gear one of the better ways to get gear is to farm brown chests outside of dungeons like the Crawlers' Nest. Out in the open, like Batallia Downs and whatnot, the brown chests do contain something you can vaguely call leveling gear. It's very random and rather unreliable, but I did get a surprising amount of gear for my PLD that way. Being free was a big plus when I didn't let myself get sparks/accolades even just for the purpose of vendoring to make gil. Gear from vendors becomes very expensive very quickly, though that's not so much a problem when you're selling sparks and accolades. What IS a problem is that vendors stop selling gear beyond a certain level. Brown chests side step that somewhat. That Bascinet lasted me a long time.

Side note, if you're careful, using mounts allows you to skip those level 55 cap monsters. You might die after picking up the KI if you aren't fast enough to remount, but that's not really a problem aside from xp loss. Granted, such a skip kind of defeats the purpose of this challenge.

certainly a novel idea, but there will come a point where a gear wall will come into play. by elimination of the AH and Bazaars, you are going to be hamstrung by gearing options in the middle levels, though I guess since you have nearly nothing to spend gil on with vendors having limited selections, you have plenty to dump into buying Crafting Kits from the vendors to theoretically make your own gear from crafting. I also notice that there is no mention of things like Coalition assignments being blocked, as even just Sneak/Invis/Mounts can get you semi-far into areas you shouldn't dare traverse at lower levels. at the very least Ceizak will get you a couple thousand otherwise "free" XP a day by just making the trek TO Adoulin.

I dunno, maybe I have just taken mules and things to 75 often enough that this doesn't seem TOO daunting to me.

I will never understand the *** some people have for leveling in the 75 era. Was standing around for weeks hitting Colibri THAT fun?

I am 100% positive anyone doing this sort of challenge is watching videos or doing something else at the same time. FFXI leveling combat is the least interesting MMO combat out there currently, barring something like Runescape I guess.

If you wanna do it, go for it. It's your $12.99, I ain't gonna tell you how to play. But I will look at you and wonder why you are wasting your life on a 21 year old MMO you've already played to death when there are an endless number of other, better, more engaging games out there you could be playing.

11 isn't even the best Final Fantasy MMO for cripes sake.

FFXI's mechanical depth lends itself well to optimization. While you aren't hitting as many buttons in XI as you are in other games (unless you're playing Dancer, then holy moly), you're almost always making decisions on-the-fly.

While it's clearly not for everybody, I can say for myself at least that I find it engaging to iron out my gameplay loop while juggling resources and dealing with a barrage of random elements. On the contrary, FFXI's combat system is what keeps me hooked.

IDK what game you're playing but we're talking about pre-75 leveling here. Take a CLASSIC party of NIN THF WAR WHM RDM BRD.

NIN: Stand behind the mob, cast debuffs (every mob). Cast shadows as necessary, WS every minute (maybe timing for SC, probably not)
WAR: Provoke mob as it comes in. WS every minute
THF: SATA WS every minute-ish
WHM: Use as low of cures as possible, do some hastes (if you're high enough level). Maybe regen for efficiency
RDM: Debuff the mob, refresh, haste, maybe help cure.
BRD: Cast songs every minute, maybe melee?

IDK, it seems insanely slow, repetitive, and boring. Most jobs have almost no tasks to do, the tasks are on REALLY long timers and there's nothing to do in-between except stare at your character doing auto-attack animations. The "resource management" is basically just MP. If you don't have MP, there's nothing to track at all. People aren't strategically deciding when to use their single cooldown for exp mobs, they just spam it on CD since no exp mob is stronger than any other and the CD are too long to target for a specific mob.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it back then because I was a dumb teenager, but objectively speaking, most jobs have almost nothing to do and the things they do have to do are rote and repetitive, and I'd go so far as to say basically nothing changes based on mob type. Maybe the WHM uses more regen/curaga if the mob has AOE?

NIN: Do I activate Yonin right away and sacrifice my damage output for a better cooldown later and more enmity? Do I maybe deactivate both stances for the better well-rounded start? Do I maybe even start in Innin stance since I'm behind the mob for more damage? Is the Thief's SATA off cooldown yet? Does the Thief have TP for a WS? Maybe I should just Provoke if the fight is going to be quick enough or the Thief can't dump hate onto me just yet. Should I use my TP on Retsu for a quicker and more reliable Paralyze for a quicker debuff rotation, or should I save that TP to open up for someone else? Maybe I should communicate with the Red Mage and coordinate an Elemental Wheel in sync with their debuffs, allowing more damage and more reliable debuffs. The next mob is coming faster than I realized. Do I risk the longer cooldown of Utsusemi: Ni pre-fight when I might need its quicker casting time if the mob tears through my shadows with a series of bad luck? Are we in a position to skillchain? If so, I should open it up with an elemental debuff to boost the power of the SC and any subsequent MB's from myself and the Red Mage. How are the Red Mage's debuffs working? Are they busy Curing or buffing? Maybe I should debuff this round. Did their Slow just get resisted? Would it be worth it for me to spend the time casting Hojo? Do I have time before I'm exhausted of shadows to cast any other spells? How's my Shihei stock looking? Is it almost time to pop another toolbag?

WAR: How's everyone's TP? How about their damage output and accuracy? If I'm the only one ready to WS, maybe I should start with a Shield Break or Armor Break, and with enough luck I might catch up with a few Double Attacks. Maybe I should switch my weapon to better collaborate a skillchain with the party. Better pay attention to the Ninja's shadows and mentally calculate everyone's enmity just in case I have to Provoke. Berserk is on a long cooldown; if I use it right now, am I going to have to deactivate it to preserve my defense in case the monster starts running amok and lose out on all of that damage afterwards? How about Defender: do I use that to help me tank, even though my lower damage output means less enmity control? I just hit 1000 TP, so what do I do? That depends on the monster's current HP, everyone else's TP, the Red Mage's MP, and what both the RDM and NIN are doing with their spells. I might want to just end the fight if the mob is low or things are getting hairy, or I might want to save my TP for the start of the next fight for CE or a debuff, or so the THF can close with SATA.

THF: Do I SATA now? (Depending on level) Do I split SA and TA for better damage at the risk of a lower enmity bar? Perhaps the Ninja can even just open fights with Provoke and we don't need to set it up because I can just TA-WS. If we have a Bard in the party, I'm probably not pulling, so what (if any) bolts do I use? It's important to use TA to plant hate when enmity is wavering, but then I run the risk of the monster moving or turning around, is it worth it? If I use SA right now, is it going to be up in time for the next fight? If I am pulling, do the mages have enough MP for another pull? Should I wait even 5-10 extra seconds, or maybe we should just rest to full?

WHM: I'm currently resting, but the tank just ate a huge critical hit. Do I keep resting for the significant jump in MP, or is there a chance the tank isn't going to survive long enough for the cast time? Is the Red Mage up and ready to cast Cure? Are they going to cast Cure themselves when there's a White Mage present? The tank just got hit by poison; what's my most efficient use of MP here: if I cast Poisona first, will I have time to drop a Cure before they die? If so, that's the most efficient use of my MP and time. Otherwise, I need to Cure him now. Maybe I have enough MP and time to spare a couple of debuffs of my own. The Red Mage is already casting Paralyze, maybe I can cast Slow this time in order to apply all of the debuffs quicker. Is it more MP-efficient to cast Regen or Regen II on this person who isn't taking consistent damage? Do I risk Protect and Shell wearing off in the middle of the next fight, or burn the MP to reapply it right now? Should I start resting now, or what are the chances I'll need to cast another spell before the next mob comes? Do I avoid resting for MP until the fight is over so everyone starts the fight with full HP and/or buffs so I don't get too much enmity and can spend more time on more efficient Cures, or do I start resting earlier so I get more MP back? If I start resting earlier, I can stand up earlier and can apply some debuffs - let's *** by looking at the Red Mage. When was the last time the Red Mage used Convert? Do I risk the huge enmity pull of a Curaga bomb after that Bomb Toss? Would they survive another one back-to-back?

(etc, etc.)

Especially because HP and MP don't recover immediately after a fight, you're rewarded with being thoughtful and efficient by being able to fight more enemies. You might even hit a perfect rhythm where there are no big breaks between fights if everyone is on the ball with their resources. And resources extend far beyond just "MP". There's TP, enmity, buffs, debuffs, casting time, cooldowns, even distance can play a huge factor in XI. You have to consider things like elemental weaknesses, damage weaknesses, and positioning, not to mention all of the randomness that stems from monster TP moves, aggro, linking, critical hits, multiattacks, etc.

Besides, the grind up to 99 isn't the point of this challenge. The two main points of it are to not allow Trusts nor the Auction House, and those force you to play the game a little bit differently. It makes more content relevant, which means there's a lot more than just constantly grinding levels. The levels happen more incidentally when you're also trying to acquire money, caskets, and drops. You have to be careful about links because you can't rely on Valaineral's AoE. You have to be efficient with your resources because you can't just unsummon and resummon Kupipi every 2-3 fights.

How involved each of these jobs is largely depends on the level range in which they're leveling.

I think you've spent too much time with modern calculations and things for damage as well. IT monsters at every level range for real players are not as potent as they once were, and back in the day, if your mages ran out of MP, it took things like well executed SP abilities to save the day.

A lot of the fun in the experience was socializing with your party while you grinded. I remember a Monk quipping to me once in Garlaige Citadel basement when it was still level ranged monsters of 45ish~50ish parties down there, Brigandine city. He quipped, "Yeah, on Monk I don't really do much. I just engage the monster and afk to watch a vid or show until I have TP, then I Raging Fists and look away again."

But that was a relatively safe camp with relatively safe targets of Bat Trios and Beetles. Either could link, but there was usually enough people down there that links were uncommon, and beetles were highly susceptible to sleep while the bats were just weak.

Take a deadlier camp with a worse level range as an example. Yhoator Jungle zone line. Level range 25 to 32. Targets: Mandragoras and Goblins, but only fight Goblins if you're 28+ unless your puller agros one. A goblin link could still wipe parties at level 31. The only way out of that was for people to blow SPs and kill one goblin before they got overwhelmed.

In the camps that were like that, I always found myself engaged and eagerly waiting for that next pull. Certain level ranges like that were also pretty exciting for the whole party. In that particular level range, a lot of folks were getting to see how their level 25 JAs and traits functioned for the first time, and then getting new ones at 30, a lot of which were dynamically powerful (Trick Attack, Souleater, Meditate, Sentinel, Barrage and many more). Also getting to put on the rank 3 Conquest points armor and the CoP new crafted sets that made you look a rank above the common subligars and harnesses and things worn up to that point.

The only time EXP became truly monotonous was in level ranges without a lot of gains. That's part of the reason why Apex/Locus grinding is so boring. Nothing changes. They're not tied to new gearing for the lionshare of 99 ilvl era gearing. I mean, there's a few cool bad *** Su2-Su5 things that if you have them means HOLY ***. Like Turms Mitts or a Crocea Mors or anything like that.

But their effectiveness isn't even on your EXP experience, largely, it's more in content like Sortie, Ambu, Omen, HTBF, etc.

So you go to the same camps over and over and over, and you CP/EP grind over and over and over. No new skills. No new skillchains. Nothing noteworthy happening other than gaining some job gifts. Or gaining skills that are already solved equations from Master Levels increasing your subjob level. You don't get overjoyed because you'll have access to Super Jump now for EXP, you get overjoyed that you have it to use in Odyssey or whatever the "real" ***you do is.

Like the joy of any leveling process is not just the process, but the pay off and perceived pay off from that process. Getting new weaponskills, JAs, gear access, area access, fight access etc. That's all super tangible excitement that fuels the desire to grind at all. But just grinding to be max level to beat fights a few minutes faster or on the D instead of the N or on the E instead of the VE etc. That's a lot less exciting.

TL;DR it's not just the process that's being sought in this challenge. It's the nostalgia for the dangerous flip of a switch sort of game the process used to be.

Just want to point out that you in no way have to kill the level 55 genkai nms. Just mount up, park on the ??? and wait for the NM to start running away from you, dismount, check, remount.

Even if you wanted to consider using a mount as taboo, you could use reraise from /whm to kamikaze to it.

That's kind of wild that the KIs are just there all the time now, and the monsters don't need to be killed to make them appear. Huh. TIL

Am I remembering wrong?

I recall NIN during 75-cap used the elemental wheel prior to Blade: Jin (lvl62?) to maintain hate, after which the wheel was largely not used and NIN would just spam Jin.

So pre-Jin: THF pulls mob, NIN vokes it, hits with Kurayami/Hojo/etc, then starts rotating the elemental nukes and weaponskills when able, maintains shadows the entire time. Uses evasion gear if shadows were down. Obviously the rest has been mentioned: timing shadow cancels, timing use of Utsusemi: Ichi/Ni when appropriate, counting shadows, etc

Post-Jin: Same, except no wheel and NIN weaponskills with Jin instead.

I distinctly remember having to keep all those stupid elemental tools in my inventory pre-universal tools, but I can't remember if there was another way for NIN to effectively hold hate before getting Blade: Jin or not.