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(Bahamut) Ironman Challenge
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1649
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-11-29 16:14:39
I remember using the debuffs for hate, but not the elemental wheel. How much threat do you think a 7 damage Doton: Ichi does? It takes 4 seconds to cast and only gives threat based on the damage it deals.
I'm not saying nobody used them back then, but if you did it was probably not a great decision. Especially on IT mobs.
Yeah IDK, I don't think a load of people were excited to learn Souleater, since you can't really use it in an EXP party without dying instantly. As far as the other stuff like risking dying, that doesn't make the actual combat mechanics any better, and neither does the potential for a link. Also: beetles don't link at all. I think you have a very twisted memory of what it was like and also none of this has to do with the combat mechanics. The fact that you can pull the wrong mob for your level, or that a mob could kill you while you're fighting it, does not make a WAR's job in a level 27 exp party any more interesting. They stand still, auto-attack every 6 seconds, and once they get TP they WS. They either use Berserk every 5 minutes, or they don't. The most exciting thing that could happen for him is that he needs to use provoke once every 30 seconds.
As you get on in levels this gets a little more dynamic, but even at best it's extremely repetitive. This is what you're doing for like 60 levels in a row, with almost no changes. What's a MNK going to do in this party? Chi Blast every 3 minutes and Focus every 90 seconds? The rest of the time like you said, they're watching a TV show while waiting for their turn to open or close a SC, then going back to watching TV.
You can enjoy that if you want, but I'd personally hesitate to say that there's a broad, deep set of resource management and combat mechanics to juggle while playing most jobs in an exp party.
Asura.Vyre
Forum Moderator
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15317
By Asura.Vyre 2023-11-29 16:21:24
Am I remembering wrong?
I recall NIN during 75-cap used the elemental wheel prior to Blade: Jin (lvl62?) to maintain hate, after which the wheel was largely not used and NIN would just spam Jin.
So pre-Jin: THF pulls mob, NIN vokes it, hits with Kurayami/Hojo/etc, then starts rotating the elemental nukes and weaponskills when able, maintains shadows the entire time. Uses evasion gear if shadows were down. Obviously the rest has been mentioned: timing shadow cancels, timing use of Utsusemi: Ichi/Ni when appropriate, counting shadows, etc
Post-Jin: Same, except no wheel and NIN weaponskills with Jin instead.
I distinctly remember having to keep all those stupid elemental tools in my inventory pre-universal tools, but I can't remember if there was another way for NIN to effectively hold hate before getting Blade: Jin or not. Well the elemental wheel only started at level 40 when the Ni line were acquired, and it only lasted really until around level 55 AFTER ToAU came out, because Colibri are magic resistant AND parrot your spells back at you. The Ichi wheel took too long to cast, and was something no one ever bothered with on account of its poor damage, unless you were getting Ninjutsu skill ups prior to 40.
There was/is significant power in Blade: Chi and Blade: Retsu was about as good as what most jobs were packing until the 55~60ish WSes. Common Ninja mistake that most players made too, which is another reason why the elemental Ni wheel was so effective, is they would full time their evasion gear on Ninja even while shadows were up, hoping to have to cast Utsusemi less. And given how prevalent evasion+ pieces were, even in early gearing, this made it seem like the right thing to do, even as you leveled into being able to equip things like the Haubergeon.
But also, people not understanding they needed to focus on damage too meant people doing things like full timing AGI rings. Not choosing katanas with better added effects. Using Squid Sushi over Sole Sushi etc.
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Asura.Vyre
Forum Moderator
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15317
By Asura.Vyre 2023-11-29 16:39:50
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Beetles don't link
Yes, in fact, they do. You can't gaslight me. I have a better memory than you.
People aren't bots. I'm sure outside of the combat, the WAR at level 27 was excited to be partying, talking to the party, and might also be shooting at the monsters with his crossbow as they pulled into the station, so to speak (if he's not the main tank). Acid Bolts were pretty useful to WAR/THF/DRK/RNG.
Certainly a lot more excitement in game once you had that party invite, than sitting with your thumb up your butt in Jeuno or Kazham.
Also, plenty of people used Souleater in EXP. Usually as a last resort to kill a monster quickly or to try and flex Epeen. Usually with some quip in the party chat like, "Get ready to heal me." Sometimes included in the macro.
Also, seeing how and what the other party members are doing was indeed a thing and part of everyone's jobs. Seeing the tank get wrecked or unable to get shadows up? Gotta provoke. Maybe the party's wiping? Perhaps it's time to disengage and run for the zone line. Are we making skillchains?
Do I need to leave party soon? Perhaps I'll be considerate and seek my own replacement and have them start coming out, and keep in contact with them as they move.
Like sure, the heightened danger doesn't change mechanics, but it does make people more engaged in spite of those mechanics.
Bahamut.Negan
サーバ: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1942
By Bahamut.Negan 2023-11-29 16:42:39
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Beetles don't link
Yes, in fact, they do. You can't gaslight me. I have a better memory than you.
People aren't bots. I'm sure outside of the combat, the WAR at level 27 was excited to be partying, talking to the party, and might also be shooting at the monsters with his crossbow as they pulled into the station, so to speak (if he's not the main tank). Acid Bolts were pretty useful to WAR/THF/DRK/RNG.
Certainly a lot more excitement in game once you had that party invite, than sitting with your thumb up your butt in Jeuno or Kazham.
Also, plenty of people used Souleater in EXP. Usually as a last resort to kill a monster quickly or to try and flex Epeen. Usually with some quip in the party chat like, "Get ready to heal me." Sometimes included in the macro.
Also, seeing how and what the other party members are doing was indeed a thing and part of everyone's jobs. Seeing the tank get wrecked or unable to get shadows up? Gotta provoke. Maybe the party's wiping? Perhaps it's time to disengage and run for the zone line. Are we making skillchains?
Do I need to leave party soon? Perhaps I'll be considerate and seek my own replacement and have them start coming out, and keep in contact with them as they move.
Like sure, the heightened danger doesn't change mechanics, but it does make people more engaged in spite of those mechanics. CONGRATULATIONS
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 Ragnarok.Jessikah
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3762
By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2023-11-29 17:04:03
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »You can enjoy that if you want, but I'd personally hesitate to say that there's a broad, deep set of resource management and combat mechanics to juggle while playing most jobs in an exp party. Especially post-Lv.50, the EXP required to gain levels is way too high, even I can't defend that. Taking literally hours to see even a single level-up is pretty awful, and adds nothing to the engagement.
I'm also not arguing that FFXI is the world's most engaging game with the deepest mechanics. But for its genre, it's definitely up there. It might even be the top, and that would explain why I can't stick with other MMORPGs that I've tried.
I'd rather play a game with low A-P-M where each of those actions are consequential, than a game with high A-P-M where the full sequence of those actions is pre-solved and written in a guide online. At least when the game has time between actions, it provides the opportunity to communicate and hang out. It's like Discord, but with a Light Skillchain every once in a while.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1649
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-11-29 17:05:29
Borer Beetle don't link. Aggros only.
Ragnarok.Jessikah
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3762
By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2023-11-29 17:13:03
Not those ones, but Beetles in general do.
Category: Beetles
"Common Behavior: Link, Sound, Scent
Uncommon Behavior: Aggro"
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1649
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-11-29 17:20:27
But that was a relatively safe camp with relatively safe targets of Bat Trios and Beetles.
I probably mixed up this sentence with the stuff about learning Souleater and figured he was talking about the upstairs bats/beetles, not the downstairs ones.
Either way though, I stand by my statement that the depth of the combat mechanics and resource management in EXP parties is extremely limited and very few if any decisions are ever made. "We got a link, should we sleep it" isn't exactly the most riveting decision-making process, nor is "Let's kill this one fast, because there are TWO of them!" As if you were otherwise going to kill it really slowly.
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 645
By Asura.Iamaman 2023-11-29 17:39:05
Well the elemental wheel only started at level 40 when the Ni line were acquired, and it only lasted really until around level 55 AFTER ToAU came out, because Colibri are magic resistant AND parrot your spells back at you. The Ichi wheel took too long to cast, and was something no one ever bothered with on account of its poor damage, unless you were getting Ninjutsu skill ups prior to 40.
That sounds about right. I did my early NIN leveling pre-ToAU, but I couldn't remember when using the wheel started and ended. I guess it makes sense it started with the Ni tier. I couldn't remember specifics but I distinctly remember using it and it being part of why the job was so expensive early on.
I don't recall Chi being used much then. It always surprised me, though, because the few times I experimented with it during that era, I remember being shocked at the damage I got out of it. I didn't really get a chance to use it much until current era. People were prickly then about doing anything outside the norm.
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Ragnarok.Jessikah
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3762
By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2023-11-29 18:00:35
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Either way though, I stand by my statement that the depth of the combat mechanics and resource management in EXP parties is extremely limited and very few if any decisions are ever made. "We got a link, should we sleep it" isn't exactly the most riveting decision-making process, nor is "Let's kill this one fast, because there are TWO of them!" As if you were otherwise going to kill it really slowly. Even put to that degree of simplicity, it's more decision-making than other games in the genre. You can zone it, one of the tanks can try to control it, the damage-dealers could unleash their moves to burn down the first one more quickly, the mages could try to Sleep it or Bind it, the Ranger or Thief could try to Bind it, a Beastmaster could Charm and Release it, a Summoner could try to despawn it, a Thief could Flee or Hide from it.
The most common decision would be to Sleep it, obviously. But what if the Sleep is resisted? Then you risk the mage being in trouble. Again, you have to consider what state the party's in: everyone's HP, MP, TP, enmity levels, ability and spell cooldowns, what your teammates have at their disposal, the proximity and safety of a zone line. You have to consider the rest of your party's reaction to it. Maybe no one even noticed it yet. Do you try to communicate that with the party, do you try and handle it yourself?
FFXI isn't some bottomless well of mechanical depth, but it's far better than its peers in this regard.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1649
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-11-29 18:18:24
Ragnarok.Jessikah said: »Even put to that degree of simplicity, it's more decision-making than other games in the genre. You can zone it, one of the tanks can try to control it, the damage-dealers could unleash their moves to burn down the first one more quickly, the mages could try to Sleep it or Bind it, the Ranger or Thief could try to Bind it, a Beastmaster could Charm and Release it, a Summoner could try to despawn it, a Thief could Flee or Hide from it.
Umm...what? You think other MMOs don't have bind, sleep, offensive CDs for DDs, or tanks can't gather threat on a second mob? Have you...played other games? Every MMO I've ever played has CC, including sleeps and binds, as well as accuracy down moves, flee-type moves, hide moves, and you can run away from aggro (maybe not to a zone, but long enough to deaggro). Every one of these mechanics exist in every MMO I've ever played (though not that many).
In fact, I'd say most jobs I've played in other games have way more offensive CDs than any DD does in FFXI, and they usually have more resources to manage, which makes sense because the only thing you could possibly consider a resource for a DD is TP. I doubt a smart WAR is holding Berserk (realistically their only offensive CD until 75) just in case there's a link.
Asura.Vyre
Forum Moderator
サーバ: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15317
By Asura.Vyre 2023-11-29 18:49:13
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Either way though, I stand by my statement that the depth of the combat mechanics and resource management in EXP parties is extremely limited and very few if any decisions are ever made. "We got a link, should we sleep it" isn't exactly the most riveting decision-making process, nor is "Let's kill this one fast, because there are TWO of them!" As if you were otherwise going to kill it really slowly.
They are pretty minor decisions, but they are minor decisions everyone in the party has to be on board with. Like if you're going to sleep the link, nobody better be trying to smack it whatever their rationale (smack it to get hate to keep it off the caster sleeping it even). Same thing with bind.
Maybe you sleep or bind the link, only for the first monster to go south (like a full HP suicide bomb toss). Suddenly everyone's HP is critical. If the WHM fills everyone's HP, then they're the target now.
With small decisions comes small dramas. With small dramas comes small reactions. Small reactions lead to shared experiences.
I made most of my friends in FFXI through the EXP parties and storyline missions. Because I got invited to my first Linkshell by being attentive and performing better than others in an EXP party.
When you got up into the higher levels with the better gear, merit parties, things become more routine like you describe. And then you get people trying to excel in the exp parties. You get Bards pulling multiple monsters to the party and sleeping them on purpose so the chains can be maintained. You get EXP chain 392 and feel like you're Vana'diel's Pimp. And then it all gets faded, boring, and samey because there's nothing new, and you've been fighting gods and ancient bioweapons. Why would you want to go back to *** slapping crabs and beetles or Toucan Sam?
The more mundane parts of the game seem so much more so, because we've all been doing things far less mundane with better rewards. It's easy to forget about the social atmosphere the old process fostered.
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Ragnarok.Jessikah
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3762
By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2023-11-30 11:21:07
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Umm...what? You think other MMOs don't have bind, sleep, offensive CDs for DDs, or tanks can't gather threat on a second mob? Have you...played other games? Every MMO I've ever played has CC, including sleeps and binds, as well as accuracy down moves, flee-type moves, hide moves, and you can run away from aggro (maybe not to a zone, but long enough to deaggro). Every one of these mechanics exist in every MMO I've ever played (though not that many). I've played lots, as I stated above. But even when a game does have those kinds of tools, they're never employed because they aren't necessary. If the enemies are way too high level to deal with, you can easily just out-run them. Otherwise, the fastest and most efficient interaction is with their HP.
There's never a threat of defeat, never a chance for things to go south. Even if you fight more enemies than you wanted to, your HP and MP recover right away anyway. If there's no punishment for a mistake, then there's no catharsis from victory.
What I like about FFXI's combat (remember, this was the whole point of this discussion) is that success is measured along a spectrum instead of a binary "success/failure". The better you handle a situation, the more resources you can carry forward. A mistake might not mean death, but it might mean 5 minutes of rest. You don't get that when your HP just jolts back to 100% after a fight is over. You don't get that when your MP recovers 1000 points per second.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1649
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-11-30 11:45:55
I see what you mean but I still think basically 100% of FFXI "resource management" w/r/t exp parties comes down to MP management.
You could say offensive CDs, TP, and HP are other "resources" but IMO in a proper exp party you should be using OCD on cooldown to maximize efficiency and not holding them for any special situation, TP is used as it's earned other than waiting for SC partners to be ready or "the mob has 2% HP, I shouldn't WS" which is something people do in every video game ever, and HP is just another way of saying MP, because MP is used to recover HP.
I will agree that most MMOs give HP/MP back too easily and there aren't non-failure consequences to having a bad pull and it's mostly binary, you won or lost, but I don't agree that there's no risk of dying, I've definitely died in exp party situations in plenty of other games, both solo and in parties. I guess there's no partial-failure where you have to rest for an extra minute, but I'm still not sure of the value of that when it comes to the enjoyability of an exp party.
Other than the social experience of chatting with people, I think the bare mechanics of a classic FFXI exp party are incredibly boring and if there weren't a chat function in the game, I'd challenge anyone to enjoy doing more than 2 hours of EXP without wanting to claw their eyes out of their skull. This, to me, shows the lack of interesting, deep mechanics in FFXI combat.
It's a great system when you're talking about endgame activities with addons, managing enemies' TP, faster TP gain rates, more cooldowns, more spells, abilities, managing threat, dangerous TP moves, AOE, fetters, etc. but for EXP mobs? IDK...I'm not really seeing the depth of mechanics keeping people engaged.
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Ragnarok.Jessikah
サーバ: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3762
By Ragnarok.Jessikah 2023-11-30 12:29:22
Yeah, I'm definitely not trying to imply FFXI is some masterpiece of gameplay mechanics, especially not in execution. I just find it more engaging than its peers.
It's true that you can just autopilot the grind, but it also does reward you for engaging with it. The more you put into it, the more you get out of it. I always have the feeling in parties - either EXP or endgame - that my teammates are relying on me to do my best and contribute all I can. It rewards you with faster EXP gains, more enjoyment out of the journey, and just feels better giving it your all.
What I find frustrating is that underneath its sloppy execution, I think XI actually does have the core of a truly phenomenal game. Skillchains, Magic Bursts, and just the function of TP in general could act as such a powerful balancing tool. It's what allows XI to muddy the waters between the common class trinity found in other games.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
サーバ: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1649
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-11-30 12:40:19
I think the best thing FFXI has going for it is also the biggest challenge in "balancing" FFXI, which is why lots of jobs aren't in the meta...the jobs are SO UNIQUE! As you said, compared to the holy trinity in most other MMOs, FFXI has very few if any truly one-note jobs. I guess PLD and WHM could be argued to be the closest, but most of the other jobs have something unique about them which puts them outside of the typical "just a DPS, tank, or healer" and many jobs fall completely outside the realm of classification. Plus there are many mechanics that are shared across jobs with varying efficiency and drawbacks/advantages. The mechanics are advanced, they're just not really used in EXP parties IMO.
Think of things like enmity removal (THF, SMN, SCH), TP removal (BLU, BST, SMN), crowd control (BLM, SMN, BLU, RDM, SCH), subtle blow, capping delay reduction, TP optimization, kiting, using multiple tanks, various different methods of healing. Endgame is filled with possibilities and the bosses have tons of interesting mechanics with loads of different ways to deal with them.
But when you're EXPing you don't see any of that and the only advantage you get out of using that stuff is tiny improvements, if any at all. I think the EXP experience in this game is one of its weakest parts, especially considering the lack of gear options pre-99. There is gear, but what gear exists has pretty limited usefulness and you really can't squeeze all that much out. Endgame REALLY broadens the experience out, especially with merits, JP, and to a lesser degree ML.
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Hey, everyone!
Some friends of mine have started new characters on Bahamut with the intent of limiting their resources in an effort to find new solutions to problems already solved by QOL. They plan on hitting Lv.99 for endgame as normal, but with some self-imposed rules, first and foremost being no Trusts.
Here's the full set of rules: Trusts, Adventuring Fellows:
You may not summon any trusts or have adventuring fellows at any point in the game and must overcome challenges by solo play or partying. This is the golden rule, and there are means of checking whether this has been broken or not.
Partying:
You may party with any player at any time. You're not solely limited by partying with other ironmen, but you must ensure that your party is synced at all times. This includes when fighting mundane mobs.
You may not abuse this rule and allow unsynced players to farm mobs and drops for you. This goes against the entire purpose of a challenge run.
Powerleveling:
This is a difficult area, since so much of this is out of our control. Basically, you may not be intentionally power-leveled by another player, be that a friend, or some random person who wants to heal and buff you as you grind. Players running by and stopping to buff and heal you randomly is fine; this is a part of the game, and there's no way to police this, but there's a difference between a random act of kindness and someone putting you on follow to buff and heal you while you level.
Auction House, Bazaar, & Player Trade:
You may not access the auction house, mail items from your other characters to your ironman.
Any worn gear must be purchased through normal NPC vendors, quested, crafted, or found as drops.
Player trading may only be done with other ironmen. Work together to support one another with farmed and crafted gear and supplies!
Bazaar and auction house purchases and selling is off limits. This can easily be used to cheat with non-ironmen players, so it's better to cut the temptation entirely.
Gilmaking:
You may make full use of the sparks and accolades system to buy acheron shields, prize powders, or any other items you see fit to make gil by selling these items to a vendor.
Farming chests, coffers, monster drops, crafting, quests, etc, are also fair game. There are several repeatable methods to make money.
Sparks, RoE, Accolades, & NPC purchases:
As mentioned above, you can use sparks and accolades earned through RoE to make money, but you may not equip any items you purchase from these vendors. The only exception are rewards you earn through RoE challenges and hunts; these items are earned, and may be equipped and traded with other ironmen freely.
The only allowed curio vendor moogle purchases are one set of teleportation rings. No key items, no buff scrolls, and absolutely no ammo, medicine, food, etc.
Mounts & Fast Travel:
None of these are off limits. Removing methods of fast travel for everyone would only slow the challenge down to a slog for little gain, and no one wants that.
They've already got about 6 people messing around with it, including streamers JesterBuns and Laruni_Caitsith. I'm not taking part in it, but I've offered to fill slots for EXP parties and other events as required.
The more, the merrier!
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