What Are WHM's Expectations In Endgame Content.

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2010-06-21
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What are WHM's expectations in Endgame content.
 Asura.Mims
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By Asura.Mims 2020-11-21 08:37:58  
Shichishito said: »
btw. ppl upgrading REMA past the point of usefullness like afterglowing yagrush, idris or nirvana is a tell tale sign that this person didn't have to work for it and/or they have little clue about the job.
***.
I put a lot of work into my R15 Yagrush, and anyone who knows me could tell you immediately why I did it.
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2020-11-21 09:02:21  
Sometimes you just love a job, and R15'ing isn't about making the smartest financial decision for your gaming effectiveness...its about that love.
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 Fenrir.Kaldaek
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By Fenrir.Kaldaek 2020-11-21 09:18:41  
Shichishito said: »
btw. ppl upgrading REMA past the point of usefullness like afterglowing yagrush, idris or nirvana is a tell tale sign that this person didn't have to work for it and/or they have little clue about the job.
afterglowing ochain, aegis or gjallarhorn should be rewarded with a auto ban, really no need to look further into it.

R15 yagrush is great for melee whm during wave3 boss fights.

R15 idris is great for nuking.

R15 nirvana adds a huge chunk of accuracy to your bloodpacts.

Why would SE give you the option to upgrade something; then also autoban you? Child.
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By Korgull 2020-11-21 09:57:06  
He is just poor.
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By Shichishito 2020-11-21 10:48:42  
Fenrir.Kaldaek said: »
R15 yagrush is great for melee whm during wave3 boss fights.

R15 idris is great for nuking.

R15 nirvana adds a huge chunk of accuracy to your bloodpacts.

Why would SE give you the option to upgrade something; then also autoban you? Child.
a WHM doesn't belong at the frontline, if your shell lets you anyway chances are you are the leader, friends with one of the leaders or they don't have a replacement for you and you've maybe already been a diva about it in the past when they denied your request.

Daybreak has just as much matt and even more magic damage than R15 idris. if you go for a nuking strat you bring BLMs and/or SCHs and at that point GEO doesn't get to nuke due to the nuking penalty window. you could have argued to land enfeebles but if enfeebles are essential there will be a RDM.

SMN hasn't had ACC issues since convoker's +3 got introduced. you could have made a point if you argued for odd solos that require meleeing to open SC for your pet.

the autoban comment was exclusively related to ppl afterglowing ochain, aegis and gjallarhorn. think of it as a honey pot that can only be attractive to cheaters.
i'm not sure why you feel the need to belittle me, you know i'm right.
 Asura.Mims
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By Asura.Mims 2020-11-21 10:55:54  
Shichishito, there are posts that merit thoughtful and reasoned counterarguments.
Yours do not.
Get bent.
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 Asura.Mims
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By Asura.Mims 2020-11-21 11:07:40  
I suppose I owe people who are not Shichishito some context.

While this bit certainly pisses me off
Shichishito said: »
a WHM doesn't belong at the frontline, if your shell lets you anyway chances are you are the leader, friends with one of the leaders or they don't have a replacement for you and you've maybe already been a diva about it in the past when they denied your request.

its this *** that pushed things over the line:
Shichishito said: »
the autoban comment was exclusively related to ppl afterglowing ochain, aegis and gjallarhorn. think of it as a honey pot that can only be attractive to cheaters.
i'm not sure why you feel the need to belittle me, you know i'm right.
There is a person in my linkshell who I hope I have earned the right to call a friend. They are a good player, and the only player I know who is hardcore vanilla FFXI until the day they die. No Windower, no Ashita, no addons, no plugins, vanilla FFXI only, final destination. This person works their butt off and plays some seriously impressive Summoner, White Mage, and Paladin, among other jobs.

They are also battling late stage cancer.
They may not have very long to live.
They decided to afterglow their Aegis as a monument to their love for this game.

It is in deference to this person that Shichishito's *** will not fly with me.

With that context, Shichishito, you can *** right off.
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 Ragnarok.Ghishlain
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By Ragnarok.Ghishlain 2020-11-21 11:08:12  
Shichishito said: »
a WHM doesn't belong at the frontline, if your shell lets you anyway chances are you are the leader, friends with one of the leaders or they don't have a replacement for you and you've maybe already been a diva about it in the past when they denied your request.

You obviously don't play WHM enough to know when a WHM should be in the front line and when it should be staying in the back line. You don't necessarily have to be meleeing to stay in the front line and perform your job at a better efficiency than a back line WHM. Esuna and cleric's wand (or it's upgraded brothers/sisters) exist for that reason.

If a WHM can still melee and help start skillchains while still being able to perform their core function, even better at that point. No need to knock down a WHM that knows when and when not to front line as being a "friend with benefits" to the group.
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 Fenrir.Kaldaek
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By Fenrir.Kaldaek 2020-11-21 11:35:49  
Shichishito said: »
Fenrir.Kaldaek said: »
R15 yagrush is great for melee whm during wave3 boss fights.

R15 idris is great for nuking.

R15 nirvana adds a huge chunk of accuracy to your bloodpacts.

Why would SE give you the option to upgrade something; then also autoban you? Child.
a WHM doesn't belong at the frontline, if your shell lets you anyway chances are you are the leader, friends with one of the leaders or they don't have a replacement for you and you've maybe already been a diva about it in the past when they denied your request.

Daybreak has just as much matt and even more magic damage than R15 idris. if you go for a nuking strat you bring BLMs and/or SCHs and at that point GEO doesn't get to nuke due to the nuking penalty window. you could have argued to land enfeebles but if enfeebles are essential there will be a RDM.

SMN hasn't had ACC issues since convoker's +3 got introduced. you could have made a point if you argued for odd solos that require meleeing to open SC for your pet.

the autoban comment was exclusively related to ppl afterglowing ochain, aegis and gjallarhorn. think of it as a honey pot that can only be attractive to cheaters.
i'm not sure why you feel the need to belittle me, you know i'm right.

You clearly are not very skilled at the game. WHM absolutely has a place on the frontline, on certain content. If you don't understand that, you don't understand the job as a whole.

Also, a geo can nuke ANYTIME a skillchain is made. More often happening in groups that are not a nuking strategy (ie blms or schs). Do you understand how powerful a disto>leaden bursted can be?

I don't even want to entertain you anymore because you just need more experience is all.

And the honeypot comment? Congratulations you probably earned a sec+ cert? Some people love their job(s). If they want to take the time to achieve goals (whether more efficient or not) that is their decision; not yours to belittle.

Go away troll.
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 Asura.Luckycharmss
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By Asura.Luckycharmss 2020-11-21 11:57:02  
Shichishito said: »
most pick up WHM to get a foot in the door, not cause they like the job. if you aren't dedicated to a job you are less likely to build a REMA for it and if there are barely any players with WHM REMAs you'll have a hard time to up the standards, especially when most content requires main heal and there is only one job that can fill the role. supply and demand.

btw. ppl upgrading REMA past the point of usefullness like afterglowing yagrush, idris or nirvana is a tell tale sign that this person didn't have to work for it and/or they have little clue about the job.
afterglowing ochain, aegis or gjallarhorn should be rewarded with a auto ban, really no need to look further into it.

This sounds so idiotic. You clearly don't have much knowledge about any of the jobs you just listed or any from the sound of things. You are broke, hurt and abused and it shows. Trying to belittle someone because of your own misfortune. Shame on you....
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-11-21 12:03:20  
Asura.Mims said: »
I suppose I owe people who are not Shichishito some context.

While this bit certainly pisses me off
Shichishito said: »
a WHM doesn't belong at the frontline, if your shell lets you anyway chances are you are the leader, friends with one of the leaders or they don't have a replacement for you and you've maybe already been a diva about it in the past when they denied your request.

its this *** that pushed things over the line:
Shichishito said: »
the autoban comment was exclusively related to ppl afterglowing ochain, aegis and gjallarhorn. think of it as a honey pot that can only be attractive to cheaters.
i'm not sure why you feel the need to belittle me, you know i'm right.
There is a person in my linkshell who I hope I have earned the right to call a friend. They are a good player, and the only player I know who is hardcore vanilla FFXI until the day they die. No Windower, no Ashita, no addons, no plugins, vanilla FFXI only, final destination. This person works their butt off and plays some seriously impressive Summoner, White Mage, and Paladin, among other jobs.

They are also battling late stage cancer.
They may not have very long to live.
They decided to afterglow their Aegis as a monument to their love for this game.

It is in deference to this person that Shichishito's *** will not fly with me.

With that context, Shichishito, you can *** right off.
I couldn't have said it any better.
Just my same exact thoughts after reading Shichi's post.
Thanks for this Mims!
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 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2020-11-21 12:34:24  
WHM and GEO can add extra damage to a Wave 3 run you would not ordinarily have. They definitely belong on the front line. For wave 3 bosses it's nice to have all hands on deck.

This is anecdotal since I've since lost the data.

On wave 3 Shadows GEO can pump out some extremely stupid flash nova(40-50k)/seraph strike(60-80k at 2000TP+) numbers using an R15 Idris/Daybreak combo (Yeah you have to sub /DNC and it comes at the cost of a side healer, but that is somebody else's job.) IMO it's definitely on par with a Corsair spamming Wildfire with R15 Arma or having them spam Savage Blade.

On the main boss the damage is some what less but still worth having.

WHM can also use daybreak but finding MATK gear to make this work may be a struggle. Cohort's Cloak/Kaykaus+1 Path D come to mind.

Even without daybreak the damage still isn't bad at all.

It's better than zero, and doesn't negatively impact the run. It only makes it better.

This was done in a setup that focused on magical damage over physical though. (KC RNG spamming True Flight), so we had proper magical buffs, storms, etc.
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 Asura.Pergatory
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By Asura.Pergatory 2020-11-22 11:50:23  
Melee isn't even the only reason to R15 Yagrush, anyway. I almost never melee on WHM, and I did it for the enfeebling. It beats both Daybreak & Contemplator+1.
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 Bahamut.Popeh
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By Bahamut.Popeh 2020-11-22 13:24:30  
Asura.Mims said: »
They are also battling late stage cancer.
They may not have very long to live.
They decided to afterglow their Aegis as a monument to their love for this game.

I've played main WHM since the game was released in NA and decided this thread went too awry to comment on. Then I saw this. This person's LS I imagine rotates jobs, lets people enjoy the game whilst maintaining job variation for high chance of success or learning ... and keeps a healer in most of their alliance parties.

I have huge respect for true vanilla players that can maintain demands of current FFXI dynamics (jobs and content) and even more so for the aegis afterglow. I hope he/she has a long, comfortable and happy time, however long that may be.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
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By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2020-11-22 18:51:29  
I'm actually just getting into the WHM melee scene. And I've got to say. It's really fun.

WHM has solid options for both physical and magical damage.(depending on the buffs).
Hexa Strike and Black Halo and both very strong weapon skills for physical. They even have the nice bonus of being able to make Light SC together.

On the magic end Flash Nova is really solid too, I just learned about the validity of Seraph Strike from this thread, as well. My magic WS set does need a bit of work though. But even with what I have, I've been really happy with the numbers I've been seeing.

Also, melee WHM has all the tools they need to heal a melee PT without anything more than the same buffs the melee's would get.

Mystic Boon is more than enough to keep a WHM going infinitely.

I'm really surprised I don't see melee WHM healing a melee PT more often at this stage of the game.

I guess not many people like to think outside of the box.
 Phoenix.Dabackpack
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By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2020-11-22 22:35:38  
Shichishito said: »
btw. ppl upgrading REMA past the point of usefullness like afterglowing yagrush, idris or nirvana is a tell tale sign that this person didn't have to work for it and/or they have little clue about the job.


I afterglowed my Idris for the stinky fart aura. *** you.
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 Bismarck.Xzerper
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By Bismarck.Xzerper 2020-11-23 02:56:50  
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
not sure you want it, but here's a non-WHM opinion-

Why is it perfectly acceptable to say to a PLD, "you can't tank until you finish Aegis/Ochain", or to a BRD "you really need Relic, Empy and Aeonic to even be taken seriously", or to a COR, "No DP, no Dyna"...but we have to treat every person who plays WHM with total kid gloves when it comes to truly gearing their job for endgame content?
The WHM in question has every single thing for WHM for the most part outside the most optimal HQ Abjuration gear. They have Yagrush, Empy and I believe they even have Relic at R15 for melee sets.

In fact, that is exclusively their only job at 99, and has not and likely will never do anything outside WHM, either. Its to the point I am under the assumption they don't need anything for their WHM, except for Gil to craft a shield. Not entirely sure what else they could possibly need for their job in general, besides optimizing niche sets.

This is why I expected more out of them than a standard White Mage. My WHM doesn't even have these items outside Yagrush(I also have 3 HQ Abjuration pieces for it as well.). I wasn't expecting a poorly geared WHM to perform the duties I had mentioned.

@Mims - I am sorry for all the distress this thread has caused you, because I am sure its brought up unwanted conversation for you. >.<;
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 Asura.Sirris
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By Asura.Sirris 2020-11-23 09:51:11  
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
not sure you want it, but here's a non-WHM opinion-

Why is it perfectly acceptable to say to a PLD, "you can't tank until you finish Aegis/Ochain", or to a BRD "you really need Relic, Empy and Aeonic to even be taken seriously", or to a COR, "No DP, no Dyna"...but we have to treat every person who plays WHM with total kid gloves when it comes to truly gearing their job for endgame content?

I'll throw out an idea- when the vast majority of shells can find someone truly interested in playing WHM on a regular basis, they're so scared of chasing them off they'll tolerate damn near anything when it comes to gear.

This might seem helpful at first- you're bringing someone who actually isn't ready for the content they're engaged in, able to succeed, and as a result they now have gear, gil, unlocks, etc. In reality, they're struggling against a gearing wall and having to work way too hard to succeed. And at times, success is honestly impossible.

BUT...they're at the event. They're getting the wins. And everyone is SO THRILLED they're playing WHM- where's the motivation to improve?

I think its time we as a player community start to expect our WHMs to gear at the same level as support and DD. No more "well, you can heal just fine without a Yagrush" and the like. Its time to say "sure, you can probably survive without it, but you're hurting the DPS of the alliance by not having one, expecting your DDs to pop meds and stop DPS or worse yet- not being fast enough cycling through an entire party of -na spells and erases when you run out of strats."

Sure, you can one-shot statues without a DP, but we still expect our CORs to have one.

Sure, you can tank on RUN without an Epeo, but we're never gonna allow that to happen IF we have an Epeo RUN at our disposal.

I mean, we can get by without Honor March, but who's going to tolerate that these days?

These types of community enforced gear-gating has been acceptable on ALL jobs except WHM for years. You do content A to get gear that allows you to do content B and its rewards, which then allows you to succeed in content C.


unrelated to gear, as there probably isn't a job where gear doesn't just "fix" you more than WHM-all jobs need to understand the mechanics of the fight, not just a tank. A WHM needs to know what a named TP move inflicts on a party status wise rather than wait for their DDs to say "hey, I'm paralyzed". They also need ot be aware of elemental resist needs to put up proper(and potent) barspells. A DD needs to know if a mob has a horrific AoE they should be turtled up for. A BRD needs to know about dispelling moves and getting buffs back up. A RDM needs to know about self-erase moves of a mob to re-apply debuffs. I'm so sick of people showing up with killer gear and zero understanding of what they're about to do.

White mage is the job that is least gear-dependent and most stressful/difficult to play. It's BY FAR the least popular/least enjoyable core meta job, and most WHMs are kinda white mage by gunpoint I find. These things are why people do not expect the same amount of gearing from white mages versus other jobs. It's as simple as that. Yagrush also isn't the game-changer that some other REMAs are (Daurdabla, Idris, Aegis, etc.) Those situations when you need to -na/Erase a bunch of people sure it rocks, but I find myself in many fights not getting use from my Yagrush.

Quote:
I'll throw out an idea- when the vast majority of shells can find someone truly interested in playing WHM on a regular basis, they're so scared of chasing them off they'll tolerate damn near anything when it comes to gear.

This hasn't been my experience. There are not that many players who are truly interested in playing white mage all the time. The job flat-out sucks to play. Mostly what I've seen is returners who are using it to gear up other jobs, which it is excellent at. You could come back and gear out a functional WHM in a couple of days.

The healing meta in FFXI needs an overhaul tbh.
 Odin.Senaki
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By Odin.Senaki 2020-11-23 09:55:14  
Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »
Shichishito said: »
btw. ppl upgrading REMA past the point of usefullness like afterglowing yagrush, idris or nirvana is a tell tale sign that this person didn't have to work for it and/or they have little clue about the job.


I afterglowed my Idris for the stinky fart aura. *** you.

Idris and Yag R-15 actually do have value. It increases your M.acc by a lot and is useful for landing enfeebles.
 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2020-11-23 10:24:37  
Actual in game meta expectations:
Yagrush
Faster reaction speed than bot which shall not be named.

Realistic Expectations:
Know what to do in situations put in. I like to use Sarama as a good example. Before I had yagrush, I did that fight many times, with few deaths. Biggest difference between me and other whms (when I came on a different job) was that I was the only one that ever stood > 20 yalms away from Sarama, as such, I never got paralyzed. I would preload accession/caress, and the first time he used paralyze, I paralyna'd immediately and caress would last pretty much the whole fight. I could only do this because I knew what to expect in the fight.

Empy +1 head + Clemency Grip aren't as good as yagrush, but 24% AoE na spells is still pretty nice if you don't have it. It should be one of your first goals.

Work hard, PartyBuffs addon is amazing. I almost never have to be told that someone has a debuff unless I'm totally overwhelmed.

Learn how Afflatus Misery works. I'll admit that this is an aspect of WHM I'm not strong at. I don't use Misery often, I find Cureskin (Afflatus Solace ST Cures) so useful that I rarely swap to this stance, but I can see the appeal. Really need the Divergence Club to make this work. Even NQ would be possible. It would make Esuna remove more debuffs at a time than Erase with JSE Neck.
 Asura.Pergatory
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By Asura.Pergatory 2020-11-23 10:41:39  
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget said: »
I guess not many people like to think outside of the box.
That, or not many people like to distract themselves from their primary duty (keeping everyone alive) to swing their club for yucks.

I'm sure you're going to tell me that you can melee without any detriment to your ability to keep everyone alive and operating efficiently, but I've met many such people and they tend to be fooling themselves.

I take pride in my WHM's ability to keep things running efficiently, and it's a full-time job if you do it well. I don't have time to think about meleeing. There are times I might be able to get away with it. Someone else pointed out Wave 3 boss is a great example, but for the entire rest of the Dynamis run before the final boss, I would not melee at all. And during each set of adds, I'll generally stop meleeing to watch for people pulling hate.

Healing is a busy job. Just because someone isn't meleeing doesn't mean they can't "think outside the box." It just means they have other priorities. You should look up to people who are that committed to their duty, rather than put them down.
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 Cerberus.Shadowmeld
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2020-11-23 11:59:52  
Asura.Pergatory said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget said: »
I guess not many people like to think outside of the box.
That, or not many people like to distract themselves from their primary duty (keeping everyone alive) to swing their club for yucks.

I'm sure you're going to tell me that you can melee without any detriment to your ability to keep everyone alive and operating efficiently, but I've met many such people and they tend to be fooling themselves.

I take pride in my WHM's ability to keep things running efficiently, and it's a full-time job if you do it well. I don't have time to think about meleeing. There are times I might be able to get away with it. Someone else pointed out Wave 3 boss is a great example, but for the entire rest of the Dynamis run before the final boss, I would not melee at all. And during each set of adds, I'll generally stop meleeing to watch for people pulling hate.

Healing is a busy job. Just because someone isn't meleeing doesn't mean they can't "think outside the box." It just means they have other priorities. You should look up to people who are that committed to their duty, rather than put them down.

I used to think that one day I'd be a melee whm or a melee rdm. I've come to accept that I'm just not that good at multitasking. The minute I start meleeing on either job, I get such a bad case of tunnel vision I basically can't perform my primary role. Kudos to those that can do that, but I personally can't do it.
 Bahamut.Popeh
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By Bahamut.Popeh 2020-11-23 13:06:39  
Melee WHM has its place, not often however imo. I personally rarely malee, doesn't mean limited thinking. I'm more comfortable constantly fixed on what's happening in the fight, debuffs/buffs needed etc. There are exceptions i'm sure, but it is how each person prefers to play whilst being as good as they can be for their group. I don't see the point to a whm meleeing if they've missed the hard hitters getting stones/paralised/buffs dropping etc. Aeonics for example, i'll sometimes melee in Zitah - other two zones i'm usually busy. Meleeing would distract me from keeping the actual DPS optimised.

However, I've seen WHMS in my LS melee whilst keeping perfect attention to the above. I've also seen plenty of WHMS who fail to act on debuffs who should focus on core duties before embarking on DPS - gear a DPS job instead. Similarly BRDS have also fallen foul of lacking attention whilst DPS'ing, sometimes oblivious that people have had songs dispelled or entire group songs dropped.

My attitude is largely from the older days though, no wants wants a melee whm if they're gonna let a party die - back when MP management was king. I appreciate times have changed.

To the OP. If you have such a committed WHM, why would you try and make that player hate the job?. Your WHM's (and other healers) support the alliance to maintain its presence on most end game content. A role even supporting a party can be stressful and unless you've played WHM in that content yourself, you'll never appreciate how much so. Tanks and healing can be a selfless role, with parses about how good the DPS are but rarely a mention who facilitated that - The brds, the tanks, the healers, geo's etc. I think the real title to this thread should be 'The versatility of a linkshell leader in endgame content and how they manage their groups'.
In my linkshell we have leaders who are versatile for almost any job, actively encourage job variation (where possible) and support people in roles they want to play more of. In a game of this age, this is why I still enjoy linkshell endgame content.
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 Asura.Epigram
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By Asura.Epigram 2020-11-23 13:07:06  
My biggest issue with dd'ing as whm is the engage delay locking you out from casting. Likewise the ws delay also locks you out from rapidly responding to cures. Maybe ja0 or something fixes this, but I haven't looked into it. Melee'ing is fun, but at least for me it is pretty situational.

To the ops comments:

I'm not a perfect whm, and you know what, ***happens. Nor should anyone expect their WHM to be perfect. Occasionally I can't cure someone behind a pillar/corner in dynamis, or I fat finger the wrong macro and cure the wrong person and someone dies .

The WHM as perfect/infallible or garbage is a really shitty thing to propagate. As an example, after a wipe a while ago, I think it was a Kyou where there was no bard for carols/pining and I was solo healing, the party leader said it was my fault and I was too stupid to understand what I did wrong... Blisted him and moved on with life. I've also had parties amazed at how well I kept them alive during Kyou, with ample usage of Caress. I love playing WHM, but there are a ton of *** out there.

I also have WHM R-15 REM, does that make me a terrible omg waste of a person who doesn't have a clue? Sure, if that makes you feel better, R15 Yag is our highest macc combo with ammurapi shield (at least last time I checked, maybe some unity thing is better now). The other two are just fun, and I just like having the set. BTW, empy is only useful if it is AG...
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