Ambuscade Volume 1 - December 2018

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Ambuscade Volume 1 - December 2018
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By Afania 2018-12-16 13:05:55  
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
DirectX said: »
Yes but 10 D without the learning curve and notably lower chance to lose is still going to be faster than 5 VD. I personally only bother to go for 25-30k hallmarks a month and get it out the way ASAP so it might be different if you go for 100k+ even when accounting for the learning curve and win rate.

Our first night we were wiping we had switched down to D and didn't notice any loss of mechanics. So I don't see how it's much easier. The whole gimmick this month is figuring out how to deal with triple reversal, which groups doing kite and non-kite methods took some time to figure out. Once you're done that, the fight is pretty cake either way, so this is actually one of the months where I don't notice a difference in difficulty, as such I'd always do VD. This isn't like last month where a major difficulty mechanic is only in VD, same number of adds are in D and VD, same triple reversal in D and VD, same endeath, etc.


This....if there's really a difference between D and VD, then it's probably kill speed potentially make TR easier to manage for kite strategy. Like Lady said, a fast groups are much less likely to wipe to TR if they kite instead of mew.

In our 5 min VD runs yesterday, tank died so many runs during TR phase. If we took 9 min to clear instead of 5 min we would probably wipe every run. But in general we can finish last 30% while healer hold them for a bit after tank dies. So we managed to clear every VD anyway.

I think if your pt uses kite instead of mew, and have issues with TR, then D is worth a try for less risk. For mew strategy it shouldn't make any difference outside of needing acc buffs.
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By Afania 2018-12-16 17:45:07  
Afania said: »
Asura.Eiryl said: »
Kiting is the FASTER way, in theory. If you can pull it off.


If smn can main heal DD, mewing should have identical kill speed as kiting, theorically.

Kiting pt setup: tank, DDx2, brd, cor, rdm
Mewing setup: tank, DDx2, brd, cor, smn.

I'm 100% certain the kiting path in ruaus video isnt fail proof. I've seen groups uses identical kiting path as ruau video and TR magically landed anyways.


Just noticed I missed something in the mewing setup above.....Silence.

Mewing strategy setup should be tank, rdm/NIN, DD, brd, cor, smn because smn can't silence adds. So as a result it's probably going to have less dps than kiting strategy because of rdm casting time, but not much.

Also in kiting strategy rdm is noticeably better choice as healer than whm because less shadow recast with slow2, and extra attack from brd attack song helps empyrean DDs white damage (yes pdif matters with empy DD). From my experience runs with whm healer seems to be 1-2 min slower than rdm healer.
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By Asura.Sechs 2018-12-16 17:53:47  
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
Our first night we were wiping we had switched down to D and didn't notice any loss of mechanics. So I don't see how it's much easier. The whole gimmick this month is figuring out how to deal with triple reversal, which groups doing kite and non-kite methods took some time to figure out. Once you're done that, the fight is pretty cake either way, so this is actually one of the months where I don't notice a difference in difficulty, as such I'd always do VD. This isn't like last month where a major difficulty mechanic is only in VD, same number of adds are in D and VD, same triple reversal in D and VD, same endeath, etc.
Premise: I absolutely agree 101% with you.

If we wanna look at things more in details I guess differences could be bigger accuracy checks, less def on megaboss... stuff that hardly makes a difference with people with good gear like all of us, but for anybody else it could mean something.

Also the Megaboss drainga move he spams under 30% is not present on D, or if it is it's way weaker, to the point you don't have to stop healing.

Also also also, last but not least, the physical damage from adds is much weaker. On VD you need a really good geared tank I guess. Not BiS of course, but it can't be your "average geared just came-back tank". On D of course you have much more freedom in this sense.



So, tl;dr, D is of course and rightfully kinder to people with worse gear.
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2018-12-16 19:22:40  
There's 1 less add on D than VD (3 Tormentors/2 Astrologists vs 2 Tormentors/2 Astrologists).

The mobs all have the same moves unlocked on both difficulties, though, including the AoE drain.
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By Asura.Schroe 2018-12-17 18:55:05  
For people kiting what is your safest path? (ignoring astrologer losing silence and staggering your train path) I've been kiting in a trianglish shape between 3 pillars because I didn't have much luck with 2 pillars after 30%.
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By Shiva.Hiep 2018-12-17 20:11:36  
I usually kite around the 3 pillars. Random tip, but if you have a solid healer following the kiter, they could sub PLD and sentinel if the kiter is caught by Triple Reversal for whatever reason. If you're a PLD, you could just swap to Twilight Helm/Mail under 30% for RR effect, get up and pop JAs to pull back hate or just wait til the healer dies. Just a tip for extra time!
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 Shiva.Arislan
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By Shiva.Arislan 2018-12-18 12:39:13  
PSA: Triple Reversal is only unlocked if you have hate on three or more Qutrubs.

If you can't kite reliably or you don't have a SMN around for mew, a setup with two tanks (PLD and RUN both work fine) where they each hold two adds apiece takes Triple Reversal completely out of the equation.

If you're on VD, one of your NINs or sub-NIN DDs would have to hold the 5th add (preferably the DRK one).
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By Afania 2018-12-18 13:26:00  
Shiva.Arislan said: »
PSA: Triple Reversal is only unlocked if you have hate on three or more Qutrubs.

If you can't kite reliably or you don't have a SMN around for mew, a setup with two tanks (PLD and RUN both work fine) where they each hold two adds apiece takes Triple Reversal completely out of the equation.

If you're on VD, one of your NINs or sub-NIN DDs would have to hold the 5th add (preferably the DRK one).

In this case the 2nd tank can be a DD that also DD from 100% to 30% for better kill speed. If that job is NIN use a SJ with flash to get hate on 2 adds quickly.

The healer like whm or rdm with certain SJ can get hate on 1 add via flash or stun.
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By Shiva.Arislan 2018-12-18 13:31:10  
Afania said: »
In this case the 2nd tank can be a DD that also DD from 100% to 30% for better kill speed. If that job is NIN use a SJ with flash to get hate on 2 adds quickly.

You'd have to somehow guarantee that they'd never pull hate on the main, tho. Hate on 2 adds + main = Triple Reversal.
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By Afania 2018-12-18 14:00:08  
Shiva.Arislan said: »
Afania said: »
In this case the 2nd tank can be a DD that also DD from 100% to 30% for better kill speed. If that job is NIN use a SJ with flash to get hate on 2 adds quickly.

You'd have to somehow guarantee that they'd never pull hate on the main, tho. Hate on 2 adds + main = Triple Reversal.

They really shouldn't if they stay far enough. Hate is capped on main between DDs so the only person getting hate on MB should be the last DD hitting it.
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By Shichishito 2018-12-18 14:16:37  
did anyone try bst yet? Purulent Ooze does HP -10% which could cut some kill time considering the qutrubs full HP. they could also dual wield 2 Purgations for 20 undead killer, add a garlic cracker +1 for another 12, maybe a holy circle from a PLD and you looking at 47 undead killer.
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By Asura.Byrne 2018-12-18 16:19:11  
Asura.Sechs said: »

Also the Megaboss drainga move he spams under 30% is not present on D, or if it is it's way weaker, to the point you don't have to stop healing.

The megaboss seems to use a single throat stab instead on D. He still spams this so as long as you're good at blink tanking, while you could cure below 30%, there's really no need to.

Our setup was pretty similar to alot of the ones here,
RDM BLU COR BRD SMN PLD

PLD supertanking with buffs, SMN mewing the adds and spot curing the PLD.

With the exception being using RDM/NIN as a DD (not saying nobody said this, didn't read every single comment). This allowed us to Saboteur Slow II and Carnage Elegy the megaboss. At this point it's like he's forgotten how to attack.

They need to remember to silence the astrologers, but was able to pair CDC spam with a BLU for damage on megaboss. Using Aeonic NIN would have been more optimal for obvious reasons, but it was a group of friends.

It seems like as long as the RDM has a timer for silences, doesn't forget to Sabo slow, and the NIN keeps hate, it's a very swift and smooth run.
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By Asura.Byrne 2018-12-18 16:23:28  
Shichishito said: »
did anyone try bst yet? Purulent Ooze does HP -10% which could cut some kill time considering the qutrubs full HP. they could also dual wield 2 Purgations for 20 undead killer, add a garlic cracker +1 for another 12, maybe a holy circle from a PLD and you looking at 47 undead killer.

This is true, but it's easy to deal cap damage to him anyway, and the real danger with him is the endeath, rather than the damage of his physical hits.

That said, if you were using multiple BST I could see using AoE bug move being a possible strategy for quickly wiping the adds, then the endeath wouldn't be a concern. (or so I've heard)
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By Afania 2018-12-18 16:27:05  
Asura.Byrne said: »
Asura.Sechs said: »

Also the Megaboss drainga move he spams under 30% is not present on D, or if it is it's way weaker, to the point you don't have to stop healing.

The megaboss seems to use a single throat stab instead on D. He still spams this so as long as you're good at blink tanking, while you could cure below 30%, there's really no need to.

Our setup was pretty similar to alot of the ones here,
RDM BLU COR BRD SMN PLD

PLD supertanking with buffs, SMN mewing the adds and spot curing the PLD.

With the exception being using RDM/NIN as a DD (not saying nobody said this, didn't read every single comment).

I did, lol.

Afania said: »
Mewing strategy setup should be tank, rdm/NIN, DD, brd, cor, smn

You need a silencer in mewing strategy otherwise blm add will nuke ochain pld and sleeps smn then make everything harder. I think they cast death too? Not sure about that. That makes rdm/nin most ideal choice as 2nd DD. Because if silencer isnt DDing in this setup it's less dps overall.

Alternatively use geo to silence instead of rdm for 1 less DD but higher pdif if that DD is an empyrean user.

However I think kiting strategy will have highest dps potential, followed by mewing strategy, and kill adds strategy being the slowest but safest of all.

Asura.Byrne said: »
Using Aeonic NIN would have been more optimal for obvious reasons,

I would take any well geared empyrean users over generic aeonic ninja. The dps difference between empyrean DD and not empyrean DD thats not mnk is not even close this month. I've also seen DD/NIN lived through entire fight multiple times np.

We have ukon war that generally broke 20k dps with samba and hit 28k dps with MS the other day, with multiple 100k dmg per attack rounds, so insane.

The thing with nin is that empyrean katana has been underdog rema for very Long time so nobody make kannagi. So using a nin = no empyrean 99% of time. While other DD jobs like BLU SAM THF DNC player generally has empyrean weapon.

I think having at least 1 empy users or mnk is probably necessary to accomplish 5 min or less runs, which is kind of dps you need for kiting strategy in VD to get reliable wins.
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By Asura.Byrne 2018-12-18 16:38:22  
Between Dia III/Lightshot and Chaos roll, you really shouldn't need GEO. At least we didn't.

It's worth remembering that with RDM, the BRD doesn't need to use 2 marches, just (M)HM Minuetx3 and Haste 2 w/ Distract 3 on boss should work.
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By Phoenix.Brixy 2018-12-18 16:40:28  
With a solid macc set a smn/rdm can silence the adds on D. Also smn can wake themselves up with sacrifice torque if they do get randomly slept. On VD you definitely want a geo,rdm,sch, etc... to silence though.
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By Afania 2018-12-18 16:45:31  
Asura.Byrne said: »
Between Dia III/Lightshot and Chaos roll, you really shouldn't need GEO. At least we didn't.


You don't if you don't use empyrean, since white dmg weight a lot less for none empy users.

But from my experience, I was only able to hit 100k to 200k /Ra attack rounds with Armageddon on cor with 20k to 60k a hit IF I have attack song and SVed. With just dia4 and chaos roll, my single hit dropped to 10k to 30k range, which isn't nearly as high.

Which proves pdif still matters and dia4 + chaos isnt enough to cap pdif. People assume it doesn't matter because they probably didn't parse white dmg avg on a low attack job like cor.
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By Asura.Byrne 2018-12-18 16:51:51  
Afania said: »
Asura.Byrne said: »
Between Dia III/Lightshot and Chaos roll, you really shouldn't need GEO. At least we didn't.


You don't if you don't use empyrean, since white dmg weight a lot less for none empy users.

But from my experience, I was only able to hit 100k to 200k /Ra attack rounds with Armageddon on cor with 20k to 60k a hit IF I have attack song and SVed. With just dia4 and chaos roll, my single hit dropped to 10k to 30k range, which isn't nearly as high.

Which proves pdif still matters and dia4 + chaos isnt enough to cap pdif. People assume it doesn't matter because they probably didn't parse white dmg avg on a low attack job like cor.

Well sure, it does make a difference. Remember my comments are for the masses, not the tiny sliver of people that have access to the most optimal possible strategies. Most people have a RDM and a SMN in their groups, not everyone has a AG Amrageddon COR in their group for those situations where you abuse white damage.

I just want players to be able to make shout groups on VD that don't have ridiculous fail rates, I'm not criticizing your methods. Sorry if you took it that way.

Edit: to clarify, I consider any fail rate above 25% to be a serious enough problem that you should consider changing methods.
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By Afania 2018-12-18 16:54:53  
Asura.Byrne said: »
Afania said: »
Asura.Byrne said: »
Between Dia III/Lightshot and Chaos roll, you really shouldn't need GEO. At least we didn't.


You don't if you don't use empyrean, since white dmg weight a lot less for none empy users.

But from my experience, I was only able to hit 100k to 200k /Ra attack rounds with Armageddon on cor with 20k to 60k a hit IF I have attack song and SVed. With just dia4 and chaos roll, my single hit dropped to 10k to 30k range, which isn't nearly as high.

Which proves pdif still matters and dia4 + chaos isnt enough to cap pdif. People assume it doesn't matter because they probably didn't parse white dmg avg on a low attack job like cor.

Well sure, it does make a difference. Remember my comments are for the masses, not the tiny sliver of people that have access to the most optimal possible strategies. Most people have a RDM and a SMN in their groups, not everyone has a AG Amrageddon COR in their group for those situations where you abuse white damage.

I just want players to be able to make shout groups on VD that don't have ridiculous fail rates, I'm not criticizing your methods. Sorry if you took it that way.

No, I didn't view it as criticism, nor I sell certain strategy as best for everybody in this game. I just add additional info about pdif not capping based on experience so people make better judgement based on info.

Empyrean weapon isnt just cor, but also other jobs like thf dnc 2h etc. We've used empy Sam war drk dnc brd blu too. But low pdif probably affects war and drk less, more on other jobs.

Also have to say that geo is more common than smn rdm. There's absolutely nothing wrong to get geo.
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By Carbuncle.Papesse 2018-12-18 17:00:34  
Phoenix.Brixy said: »
With a solid macc set a smn/rdm can silence the adds on D. Also smn can wake themselves up with sacrifice torque if they do get randomly slept. On VD you definitely want a geo,rdm,sch, etc... to silence though.
SMN/RDM can also silence them in VD. Obviously it requires a very good macc set and food to be able to stick Silence easily.
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By Sylph.Dravidian 2018-12-18 17:20:43  
Yeah, I was thinking SMN/RDM main heal. Silence, and mewing. Everyone else just stays on the boss and never moves from it, keep shadows up. Obviously there is a best route, but I'm thinking this might be the easiest for me to do pugs with? Maybe finding a good enough tank to not get rocked though giving the tank wilt make the adds hit for nothing. Hmm

Speaking of GEO, we have found from our testing that a GEO is significant for auto attack damage. Then we have the cor do fights/sams. We found we weren't at capped atk still, but just realized from this discussion we may have not been doing dia II. Chaos put us at cap, but the fighters overall benefited us more since we were already so close to the cap. This just made me think though, maybe fighters/rogues would be more ideal?
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By Asura.Eiryl 2018-12-18 17:36:19  
Shiva.Arislan said: »
PSA: Triple Reversal is only unlocked if you have hate on three or more Qutrubs.

If you can't kite reliably or you don't have a SMN around for mew, a setup with two tanks (PLD and RUN both work fine) where they each hold two adds apiece takes Triple Reversal completely out of the equation.

If you're on VD, one of your NINs or sub-NIN DDs would have to hold the 5th add (preferably the DRK one).


This is incorrect, it's 2 for sure. not 3. I've been triple reversed many times with only boss + one add. If it were 3 there would absolutely zero issues.
8333 damage is 2 mobs.
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By Shiva.Arislan 2018-12-18 17:46:58  
Did 3-4 runs today holding two adds. Never saw a single triple reverse. Neither did the other tank.

Boss + 1 maybe different, I don't know.
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2018-12-18 18:03:03  
Shiva.Arislan said: »
Did 3-4 runs today holding two adds. Never saw a single triple reverse. Neither did the other tank.

Boss + 1 maybe different, I don't know.

Did you hold the adds anywhere close to the main boss?
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By Afania 2018-12-18 18:16:21  
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
Yeah, I was thinking SMN/RDM main heal. Silence, and mewing. Everyone else just stays on the boss and never moves from it, keep shadows up. Obviously there is a best route, but I'm thinking this might be the easiest for me to do pugs with? Maybe finding a good enough tank to not get rocked though giving the tank wilt make the adds hit for nothing. Hmm

Speaking of GEO, we have found from our testing that a GEO is significant for auto attack damage. Then we have the cor do fights/sams. We found we weren't at capped atk still, but just realized from this discussion we may have not been doing dia II. Chaos put us at cap, but the fighters overall benefited us more since we were already so close to the cap. This just made me think though, maybe fighters/rogues would be more ideal?

If smn can main heal and silence, then tank DD x2 cor brd smn will probably the best setup for majority with decent number of people hitting/bouncing hate and little chance to eat TR.

Tank DD x2 cor brd geo using kite strategy having strongest max dps potential.
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By Shiva.Arislan 2018-12-18 18:25:48  
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
Did you hold the adds anywhere close to the main boss?

Far corners.

So boss needs to be in proximity for adds to gain access to TripRev?
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2018-12-18 18:54:41  
Shiva.Arislan said: »
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
Did you hold the adds anywhere close to the main boss?

Far corners.

So boss needs to be in proximity for adds to gain access to TripRev?

Well, the first night I had a circumstance where I was kiting and only had 4 of the adds. I circled around near the boss to get the 5th and the boss turned and chased me as soon as I was within proximity and used triple reversal on me. So I'd wager if you have 2 adds and you're even near the boss, it will trigger Triple Reversal.
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By Sylph.Dravidian 2018-12-18 19:18:11  
Afania said: »
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
Yeah, I was thinking SMN/RDM main heal. Silence, and mewing. Everyone else just stays on the boss and never moves from it, keep shadows up. Obviously there is a best route, but I'm thinking this might be the easiest for me to do pugs with? Maybe finding a good enough tank to not get rocked though giving the tank wilt make the adds hit for nothing. Hmm

Speaking of GEO, we have found from our testing that a GEO is significant for auto attack damage. Then we have the cor do fights/sams. We found we weren't at capped atk still, but just realized from this discussion we may have not been doing dia II. Chaos put us at cap, but the fighters overall benefited us more since we were already so close to the cap. This just made me think though, maybe fighters/rogues would be more ideal?

If smn can main heal and silence, then tank DD x2 cor brd smn will probably the best setup for majority with decent number of people hitting/bouncing hate and little chance to eat TR.

Tank DD x2 cor brd geo using kite strategy having strongest max dps potential.

Agreed. We found the setup you listed to be what we like the most. I just know these people I play with won’t always be around so wondering what the most stupid proof strat is heh. Even if something takes longer.
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By Afania 2018-12-18 19:42:25  
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
Afania said: »
Sylph.Dravidian said: »
Yeah, I was thinking SMN/RDM main heal. Silence, and mewing. Everyone else just stays on the boss and never moves from it, keep shadows up. Obviously there is a best route, but I'm thinking this might be the easiest for me to do pugs with? Maybe finding a good enough tank to not get rocked though giving the tank wilt make the adds hit for nothing. Hmm

Speaking of GEO, we have found from our testing that a GEO is significant for auto attack damage. Then we have the cor do fights/sams. We found we weren't at capped atk still, but just realized from this discussion we may have not been doing dia II. Chaos put us at cap, but the fighters overall benefited us more since we were already so close to the cap. This just made me think though, maybe fighters/rogues would be more ideal?

If smn can main heal and silence, then tank DD x2 cor brd smn will probably the best setup for majority with decent number of people hitting/bouncing hate and little chance to eat TR.

Tank DD x2 cor brd geo using kite strategy having strongest max dps potential.

Agreed. We found the setup you listed to be what we like the most. I just know these people I play with won’t always be around so wondering what the most stupid proof strat is heh. Even if something takes longer.

Kill adds should be the safest of all strat. Which remove the risk of DD die to endeath. Then if you mew the adds it also remove the risk of TR.

So basically tank, ddx2, cor brd smn or tank DD cor brd rdm(geo) smn if smn can't silence. Kill all adds at 70% to ensure endeath never lands. Then have tank hold all adds at 30% then mew them to ensure TR never fire off too.

If you do it that way you basically removed every possibility to wipe I'd say.
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By Asura.Schroe 2018-12-19 03:38:07  
So the best strat is to split adds, kill, then split adds > kill again? Or hold them and spam mewing? Really dislike kiting and would like an alternative, but I'm stuck on tank due to not having a geared DD yet.
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